I think he is just going through some second season blues.
Will be a lot better next season for us
Will be a lot better next season for us
9
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You're imagining this based on how you see him perform at Real and Tottenham. He is a better player for sure..but we lack the personnel in other areas for Bale to even play the football he usually does.
it's a bit like watching clips of Depay and imagining him play the same for us. Didn't happen here.
Ibrahimovich is good and useful against some type of teams but we need someone younger and more mobile but on the same level. Van Persie in his first year here was ideal. We had Scholes, Carrick was younger...we were able to play fast direct football when it was required ie we'd be on the backfoot in a lot of games but within a moment could score a goal.
So ideally a young van persie, scholes and carrick (or any competent dm) are the type of players we need in this system.
People always complain about Ibra's age and that he can't be in the club for that long. You mention van Persie, but he didn't really stay for that long either. So what's the difference? There are no guarentees when you buy players. So even if a young player would be bought, what's to say they are going to stay in the club for 8-10 years? They would maybe still like to leave after 3 or 4 years.
So if Ibra can continue at this level for 2 more season's I'd say it's actually really good.
Sorry for the off-topic post since it's not the 'correct' thread for this subject.
Basically we need someone more mobile than ibrahimovic if we're going to attack teams with quick direct football. Since we have ibra, our 'direct' version of football is long ball (which is also why Fellaini is favoured by Jose).
Van Persie was a more mobile version of Ibra, we also had Scholes and Carrick. Seriously just these 3 positions were what we needed. That was literally all we needed to win the league title.
Think Leicester City with Kante, Mahrez and Vardy.
These were aging players, so we needed replacements for them. It doesn't look like teams are going to give up that pressing football so for the forseeable this system works.
We have a lot of talent in the squad. If you look at some of our best football in the last few seasons it's almost always come through mata's quick passing interplay. This season, at times with Mata, Herrera, Mkhitaryan playing quick, one touch football suddenly you see Martial come to life. Ibra isn't 'bad' but he's not ideal in those situations which is when we're at our best.
We already have Pogba, Herrera and Mata...imo we just need a solid DM and a new all out striker(as much as i'd prefer Rashford and Martial, they are not fully ready to lead the line yet).
Then again this topic has been done to death already, there are a ton of players available for us to sign right now esp in the DM position.
These players are so overrrated. Him and Rashford just can't seem to get any consistency. I don't want to jump the gun but the signs aren't looking good for him.
If you could come up with more than just a single example of this alleged grit and determination from this season (at home, against a team that was in the bottom half of the table) then you'd have a better chance of changing that narrative tbh. Because the examples of him not showing those qualities are racking up by the week.
Do you think Martial is better at the quick one touch football than Ibrahimovic? I haven't seen any sign of that - he's a quick dribbler but that's something else. I'd say it's the opposite. Mata is the best at this but Ibra isn't that much worse. For a "slow" player he thinks really fast...
He was absolutely shocking on saturday, and the way his head and effort dropped when things weren't going his way was very poor.
Looks like it could be another fortune wasted on talent not to be realised.
Looks like it could be another fortune wasted on talent not to be realised.
It's far too early to write him off. Give him time. It's no use trying to buy a team full of stars if you allow no players time to settle.
Rashford and Martial will come good next year, I genuinely believe that.
Rashford and Martial will come good next year, I genuinely believe that.
You can't be too harsh on him at such an early stage in his career.
Although Jose may lose patience with his attitude or inability to concentrate on the job in hand, when things aren't going for him.
He is going to be an unbelievable player in a couple of years imo. But can Jose wait that long? I highly doubt it unfortunately.
Although Jose may lose patience with his attitude or inability to concentrate on the job in hand, when things aren't going for him.
He is going to be an unbelievable player in a couple of years imo. But can Jose wait that long? I highly doubt it unfortunately.
Because Martial's career only started this season....
If you read the post I quoted, he was referring to last season so I used some examples from last season to argue the point.
Is it not possible that there are other contributing factors to his form this season?
That's my main issue. People were pushing this narrative last season too. Calling him emotionless because he doesn't celebrate his goals and accusing him of lacking passion. His performances from the end of the season disproved that for me. But as soon as his form dropped, we started hearing the same old cliches.
Oh and his workrate and determination when Jose reinstated him to the team was exemplary. The fact that he's been a pretty much guaranteed starter since then, in contrast to someone like Shaw may suggest that his attitude isn't the cause of his poor form.
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He reminds me of Depay, in terms of being brainless and the way he sulks when he makes a mess of something.
Then Dab-King should remind you even more of him.
I agree that the emotionless narrative gets twisted. Last season it was because he was an ice-blooded killer. This season he doesn't give a shit. To me, his body language and expression hasn't changed at all. The only different is his level of performance.
I think there's some truth in him needing to make up for poor form by putting more of a shift in. My main beef with him is the way he waits for the ball to get to him and doesn't make enough runs. Which makes it very easy for opposing back fours to keep their shape. That was acceptable in a season where everything was going for him - and he found it easy to dribble his man - but doesn't look good when he's struggling to make an impression on the game.
wrong thread.
This time next year, Rodney.....
Martial and Ibra i feel just dont click, he also comes across to me like he feels he always has to pass it to ibra..he should just take the approach Bale had with Ronaldo and not give a....... about if he whines or not and take a shot yourself at times and be more free.
From what i've seen Martial becomes more of a goal threat rather than someone who just joins in the passing. Ibra is a special player i'm not putting him down, just saying he isn't ideal in these situations because he doesn't have the legs to get on the end of those chances. However he's very capable as a quick passer. although i remember we were playing long ball one game and he set up Martial with a headed pass.
It is still rare to see us play fast direct football though, we lack a DM and there are various other reasons why. What we instead do is pass the ball out to the wing and expect something to come from it.
Then blame players like Martial.
I agree about his waiting for the ball to come to him. IMO it's down to a lack of awareness on his part and I really hope it's something he can improve on otherwise his his lack of variety is going to hold him back.
I've thought this. It's a bit like the Van Nistelrooy & Ronaldo situation at times. I think Martial isn't a big character though and Ibrahimovic being like he is, he is a bit oppressive of Martial.
I don't understand here. Sorry to say this but I can't see any sense of this post of yours.
You are using Bale and Depay as comparison? Really?
Clearly Memphis Depay main weakness is his poor decision making where he has no brain to read the situation. Bale on the other hand isn't just a winger or attacker with no brain who only has brain of beating his men and shooting. He has shown enough experiences and knows how to handle a situation when 2 or 3 average players go in charge towards him whenever he touches the ball.
You have to wonder how did he do so well at Spurs which at that time had worse team than our current squad. He was already well known as dangerous and a lot PL clubs always use two or three to close him down. And he was able to carry Wales into semi final Euro and playing well. He knows how to handle and also take advantages for his team when 2 or 3 men try to close him down. He's not that dump trying to beat 3 or 4 men by himself.
The level of intelligent and the ability between Bale and Martial or Memphis are big gaps!!
And another thing that doesn't make any sense here that why are you discussing something that has nothing to do with Martial and Bale relation on your second paragraph.
The lad needs an extended run in the team. He's in one game and then out the next.
Give him a run let him get his form and confidence back.
Give him a run let him get his form and confidence back.
Boro, Watford
The lad needs to learn to do anything other than wait to get the ball to feet and then run into a crowd.
And movement off ball. Even Pogba got into scoring position (he's wasteful too) which supposed to be Martial's area. Martial also had chances himself whihc he also failed to score. So adding Martial's own failed chance plus not taking full advantage of what is created (Pogba needs to take responsibility); a player in Martial's position in this case Bale would fare much better.
Pogba's chances I am talking about here is not just long range short (Bale can do well too if he's afforded to get his shot this much), but clear chances like Pogba vs L'pool at OT, vs Bournemouth at OT...
You must be sleeping and dreaming the past few seasons if you thought last few season we play high tempo & quick interplay & Mata was influential enough to have all our play through him; Fellaini was only favored by Mourinho; Carrick would help playing a high tempo; Scholes was influential in SAF's last season (you're talking Scholes, Carrick, RVP who only joined us in SAF's final season); we created abundance of clear chances for RVP or by RVP...
RVP got praised for how clinical he was for convert difficult into goal, feeding on scrap. Mata was shunt onto the wing by Moyes. LVG let him drift inside more, but he's closer to a Rooney than a David Silva. Mata was more about final ball than stamping his authority and connecting our players together in a passing game. Carrick prefers a slower tempo for himself. He needs runners so he can play the ball out effectively. If he is to control the game, it's at slow tempo. That the main and distinct different from Scholes who can play at variety of different tempo. Carrick thus is far more prone to opposition's pressing. LVG heavily relied on Fellaini since there was severe lacking of physicality in the team. Mourinho made Fellaini much more a squad player than LVG. Fellaini was utter useless under Moyes despite Moyes bought him
Martial is inconsistent, there is no clear pattern of when he's to turn up. Even within a game he can drift in & drift out of it unexpectedly: Bournemouth at OT (faded after bright start), Wigan (invisible in first half), Reading (invisible in second half), Totenham at OT... It's not the high tempo, quick interchange that made him being better last season. It's the possession tactic that put him more into 1 vs 1 with the opposition defender with the ball at his feet facing their goal. All sound good except in reality that tactic relied on him too much in expense of slow build up, not direct play, low chance creation, and frustrating & sleepy to watch...
Zlatan is very wasteful, but he's not the biggest problem with him being a focal point and help creating more chances. There is still enough chance to win the game in case ther players around him stepping up.
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He's a better finisher than Rashford. And those runs into a crowd may just have a bit more joy if he was played centrally as a striker.
Suarez got a good amount of goals and assists in the exact same way in the Prem. He needs to be inside the penalty area more imo. From there those dribbles are a lot more likely to get him in on goal, or even a pen.
Suarez got a good amount of goals and assists in the exact same way in the Prem. He needs to be inside the penalty area more imo. From there those dribbles are a lot more likely to get him in on goal, or even a pen.
Can't see how Martial is comparable to Suarez. Suarez was more prolific toward his end of L'pool career; but before that, he didn't really that much prolific; his dribbling was never really consistent great neither; yet he's very influential in L'pool play. Why? Workrate, desire, off ball movement, running in behind, harassing opposition ball carrier from deep area; selflessness working for the team...
It stops with both are pacy forwards with very good dribbling skill who have wide range of operative area. The qualities of Suarez above is very distinctive to Martial, and you can see difference in their shooting ability too.
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I agree, and I wasn't comparing the two as players. I was just stating that I think he would have more joy in central areas.
He's useful on the wing, but Martial is not a winger, he's a striker.
He very rarely gets an opportunity to strike a ball early inside the area. Him and Rashford both do well on the wing, but ultimately they will both end up as strikers.
I respect your opinion, but I can't say I agree. I don't think Martial being employed as out out winger. He's pretty much wing forward & afforded to drift inside into the forward/ shooting position. Issue is his off ball movement. He's not often on the move and cut off his marker when there is a potential pass into his area. Mata, Mkhitaryan, Pogba all popped up in his supposed shooting position from time to time because he was not there. Mata being slow but beat him to that is making this look ridiculous for him.
He's still learning. Mata has years of experience, plus he's a fantastic player with a brilliant footballing brain.
Martial needs to play in these areas to develop fully as a centre forward. I believe he will gain experience on the wing, but he needs to play centrally. Particularly in the Prem, to adapt fully.
I hope so. He has not progressed in this part of his game at all from when I first came across him. I believe this is the main culprit for his inconsistency as we change system and no longer can afford him to pick his position and wait for the ball onto his feet facing opposition's goal as main attacking option. He needs more off ball movement and pick up flick, bouncing loose ball from Zlatan contesting against defenders and learn to vary his game to find a different attacking option than cut inside and place it toward far corner.
He's weak mentally wise and I don't know if he will want to stay this summer if he's benched again and again, but everytime we count on him he disappoint us.
Not only with the ball, but in his game, his implication and what he does.
He's got talent, but he seems to be reluctant at listening to Mou.
We'll need him for sure until the end of the season we still have some tough game to play and we all know that he can be useful.
But he's not showing why we paid so much.
Not only with the ball, but in his game, his implication and what he does.
He's got talent, but he seems to be reluctant at listening to Mou.
We'll need him for sure until the end of the season we still have some tough game to play and we all know that he can be useful.
But he's not showing why we paid so much.
Unlike most I didn't think he had a bad game at all, I remember he even made a number of off the ball runs particularly in the first half which was encouraging to see. I think he will start against Everton, hopefully him and Ibra work well this time.
He did make a few off the ball runs, but he was ignored each time except when Ashley Young tried to find him and ended up playing it 10 yards too far. After that he seemed to stop and revert back to his normal game.
I am going to have to disagree with you there, buddy! Making use of an abundance of skill and technique to score a beautiful goal isn't grit. Martial is perhaps the biggest talent I have seen here recently(post Ronaldo period)! His close control of the ball and dribbling is a treat to watch. But, his plays are becoming very predictable. Stand until the ball is passed to him, then play 1-2's with the nearest players while trying to move into the box. Very one-dimensional. And buddy, Grit/ Mental Resilience is, not giving up when the chips are down. Grit is forcing the issue, when things are not going according to plan. Trying different things to keep the opposition on their toes. Everytime I see him, I see a lack of these things in a player who has all the talent in the world to make it to the very top.
I think you're wrong about Bale. You underestimate the difference a world class player like Bale makes to a team. Look at the Spurs team he starred in. It wasn't that great. He elevated them an incredible amount. Likewise Suarez with Liverpool, Cristiano with us. Bale would be outstanding with us, and he'd lift the overall quality of the side, make the players around him better.
Putting himself and Martial in the same sentence is just ... wrong. Martial has shown this year how much he has to learn. Has 1 trick. Needs to up his game considerably.
I agree with this. I'd add that, it worked last season for him because it was his first in the league, and teams weren't used to him, so he had success. But then with a full season behind him, teams were able to figure out how to stop him. And stopping him this year has been pretty easy. He's far too static with the ball, so predictable. He waits to get it, then will run at defenders. Now, fair enough, he's really good at this, but it generally ends with him attempting to cut inside and curl one to the far post. It's all very predictable as to what he'll try and do. Admittedly the fact he's pretty darn good with the ball at his feet means that sometimes this will work out for him.
But if he could add some decent off the ball movement, and vary up his final ball a bit more, he'd be outstanding in my book. Much harder to mark, thus his form would improve etc.
Please don't liken Suarez to Martial. Suarez uses pace, guile, great movement. Martial is a great dribbler. He'd be a disaster up top on his own - people talk about Ibra being static at times - at least he drops deep to get on the ball. Martial has no instincts to play the striker's role that I've seen. He'd stand there waiting for the ball to feet, and he'd be tightly marked. At least out wide, he usually has a full back standing off him, so he has time to take the ball and get running. He wouldn't have that, playing up top.
Don't expect him to become a superstar when we hired a manager who is useless when it comes to developing young players. Under LVG he had a much better chance of becoming time hence he even had a stellar season last season, no surprise like the other youngster we have, hes struggling.
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