I didn't ask for players who shone in a big club. I asked for players who were better in a big club than they were in a small club. Cole, Yorke, and Bale weren't, they did what was hoped of them when they made the move. I'm not sure what the argument could be for any of the others.
Anthony Elanga | Forest watch
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I didn't ask for players who shone in a big club. I asked for players who were better in a big club than they were in a small club. Cole, Yorke, and Bale weren't, they did what was hoped of them when they made the move. I'm not sure what the argument could be for any of the others.
Andy Cole was almost certainly better for us then before or after, before us he was just a goal-poacher, he turned into an all-round forward with us.
Also Dwight Yorke obviously went to an extra level in 98/99 - far above anything he showed at Villa.
All of those players were better at a big club or outperformed their smaller club form,
Again, the pressure is a different kind of pressure, but no less intense than those of a top six club.
Forest are two poor results from being close to the relegation zone, tell me how that isn't going to put pressure on a player/team?
Also, you picked West Ham and Palace as teams who likely set up different against Forest than against United, you couldn't be further from the truth with that!
West Ham very rarely set up differently ever, especially if they are playing Antonio (another player who has outperformed their smaller club status) up top, likewise Palace are often found playing the same way, they certainly did Vs United to what they set up like against Everton for example.
Hopefully this will have a good knock on effect that teams will start to value players of ours that are surplus to requirements and start to pay more now that their is evidence there that these are competent top level players
Not really if they are still dealing with the clowns who have been selling so far.
Of course the pressure is less, because ultimately, it's not really that unexpected if they lose to half the teams in the league.
Again, he's not even putting in particularly great numbers, which further drives home how easy it is to shine when you're at a smaller club with lower expectations.
West Ham and Palace will also absolutely set up differently against the league's top teams than they will against the teams at the bottom. Not necessarily in terms of personnel or formation, but definitely in their approach to the game.
To be honest there has been a bad reputation around our players compared to rejects from other bigger clubs like Liverpool, Chelsea and City, we may actually see more demand for our players after seeing our squad rejects and youth players doing well in the premier league, it's why real madrid have done so well with their rejects/youth players as they have good form of these players being a hit when sold, same with city recently in fairness, it builds up a reputation and with jim hopefully doing a reshuffle before the next window
Never got close to his Newcastle tally though, and Newcastle were also considered a big club back then.
Well that's because he was a poacher at Newcastle - he completely upped his game with us to be a more complete footballer (as he had to be).
Really do disagree regarding the pressure. Often more pressure the further down the table you go, more riding on clubs like Forest staying up, but there's always the same pressure at least.
His performances so far this season reminds me of his breakthrough season at United, whereby he looked electric and dangerous but raw. He's got more experience now so is less raw.
This is a ridiculously entitled argument. We will play against the same teams United do so we are comparing like for like. If we go with your ‘better‘ team argument, there should be better players at United so creating more chances for Elanga to score.
The main differences are we set up to play to Elangas strengths - quick breaks and turnarounds. He’s also benefited from our injuries in terms of pitch time (as ironically he prob would with United if he stayed).
The idea that there is less pressure playing for Forest is rubbish, no one at Forest thinks it’s fine to lose cos we’re only a mid table team.
one point that hasn’t been mentioned is that what ever the perceived expectation or pressure on a player, it’s the managers job to ensure his players go on the pitched in the right frame of mind and not to let pressure inhibit that player’s performance. Steve Cooper is very good at man management.
The main differences are we set up to play to Elangas strengths - quick breaks and turnarounds. He’s also benefited from our injuries in terms of pitch time (as ironically he prob would with United if he stayed).
The idea that there is less pressure playing for Forest is rubbish, no one at Forest thinks it’s fine to lose cos we’re only a mid table team.
one point that hasn’t been mentioned is that what ever the perceived expectation or pressure on a player, it’s the managers job to ensure his players go on the pitched in the right frame of mind and not to let pressure inhibit that player’s performance. Steve Cooper is very good at man management.
It's not about it being "fine" to lose. It's about the balance of expectations.
Forest play the same teams as United but those teams will not play in the same way in both ties, so it isn't like for like.
You've even acknowledged some of this tactical difference by pointing out how your style suits his game more. The reason you have that style is precisely because you expect to be the underdog in the majority of games.
United are the opposite, and more teams will play deeper lines with a more defensive outlook against us than they will against Forest.
It's not entitlement or a slight on Forest to highlight that their target of not getting relegated requires fewer points, wins, and therefore goals, than United's target of achieving top four. As a result, there's less pressure week to week to actually score/win.
In any given run of six games, a team chasing top four are looking at returning at least 10 points just to stay in the hunt. A team looking to win the title is looking at bringing back 13 or 14. Teams at the bottom of the table are looking at topping out at five or six, with anything more being considered a very good run of form, and hitting that five or six is likely to see them climb a place or two up the table.
It's clearly a higher pressure environment when a team's minimum expectations for the season can become unattainable with fewer points dropped.
Of course there’s more pressure playing at United. Don’t be daft.
If you think Forest’s owners and management don’t expect results or put pressure on the team to win matches then sorry, you need to get out of your United bubble.
We don’t expect to be underdogs in fact since we overhauled midfield this summer and we’ve started playing a more high press possession based game. Elangas goal on Sunday was a result of winning the ball in the oppo half and putting a decent cross by the full backs. We did the same Vs Villa for Ainas goal.
So you actually believe there’s the same pressure at United and Forest?
Jesus wept.
Again, the point is not that playing at Forest is without pressure. The point is that there is clearly more for the teams expecting to finish in the top part of the table than those expecting to finish in the bottom part.
What preassure does a Prem footballer Face? Train hard, eat well, work to improve your game, follow the managers instructions and play at your maximum consistent level or be replaced. It’s the same at any of the 20 clubs. The top four are there because they’ve spent the most money on players that do the above at a higher level. The pressure of expectation is on the manager as he picks the team and decides the tactics. As I said before, the good managers are able to send their players out confident they can achieve their goals.
whts your expectation based on? The Achievements of a completely different set of players 15 years ago? Jesus Wept!
Jesus needs to stop being so emotional
Now now. You know exactly what he means. Put in a good shift, get beaten by the odd goal, no big deal at Forest. Every defeat a catastrophe at United. Clearly that brings a different pressure. I know you get this.
I agree. But sometimes, players are affected by the media, public opinions. If they can’t adjust their daily life so that they can make themselves immune from those influences, they could be badly affected. Playing for manutd, they are under extreme scrutiny. It’s really up to players to adjust their own mood, psychological state. Sometimes, it’s hard.
Anyway, I always think Elanga will eventually develop into a top player.
He jinxed them with his celebration. Youd swear he won them the Champions League or something.
Can't believe i have to say this but pressure for playing for a big club is completely different, you are under more scrunity, everything is over analysed by media and temperance with mental capability to focus and deliver under pressure is what sets a good player and a great player apart.
please tell me you are just trolling.He developed into a more complete forward with United, running the channel, back to goal etc. he was definitely a better footballer when fergie and team coached him. Newcastle only used him as a poacher, in the old Ian Rush or John Aldridge style, being fed by Beardsley. You can’t really compare him at those two stages
Surely you’re not this naive.
Really weird how some players cope with moves to big clubs but others don't, isn't it?
I'm assuming he believes there's just as much pressure on a player at a team vying for the Premier League as there is for a player at Bamber Bridge, sat mid-table in the Northern Premier League.
I think there is a similar type of pressure at Forest and United since Forest are a relegation battler.
Sorry, Elanga was largely terrible here and nowhere near good enough. The same applies to some of our current players, but let's not rewrite anything here. He was invisible. Wish him every success at Forest
An Everton fan would know better than anyone I guess?
All a player has to do is eat well and crack on.
Well yeah, I think it's disingenuous with some posters saying Forest can just lose games and move on compared to United. It matters. There are different pressures, for sure, but it's quite hard to quantify those pressures and as always there are multiple factors to take into place when considering how well a player performs at a club compared to another. Forest style appears to suit Elanga a lot but then again it doesn't seem like your style currently suits any forward.
I think some are looking far too much into it.
There’s clearly more pressure on a player at a club like United given everything is under the spotlight and analysed in the media excessively. I’m really surprised some don’t seem to want to accept this or consider it arrogant. It’s fact (sadly)
Well United get criticism for winning when it's not in the right manner. No one bats an eye when Forest lose to West Ham.
Ridicule and vitriol on a global scale is the price paid by players who don't perform at United. Even the Ghanaian parliament gets on your case
Anyway, it's only a positive to see Elanga doing well. He's progressing in a way he wouldn't have done here. It doesn't really matter if it's because of less pressure or more trust or whatever - Forest's environment just suits him better.
Anyway, it's only a positive to see Elanga doing well. He's progressing in a way he wouldn't have done here. It doesn't really matter if it's because of less pressure or more trust or whatever - Forest's environment just suits him better.
I still have no idea how ETH continued to play Wout last year while Elanga sat on the bench or in the stands.
Because context is relevant. I think it's quite difficult to quantify that there is more pressure at x club than y club for players because each player is unique and is battling different things. Both players at the clubs and the clubs themselves are battling different pressures (albeit in some examples, similar types). I've seen some players say they found a title challenge pressure tougher than anything and some players say they found a relegation battle tougher than anything. It's not a one rule fits all.
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How can that be true? Even at the most basic level, the pressure to perform well enough to be picked at the weekend, isn’t even remotely similar. You’re competing with much more talented players for a place in the team. One bad performance can see you sidelined for weeks. Then there’s the pressure on the team to get results, where expectations are obviously much higher at United. If a player misses a sitter that results in dropped points at a relegation battlers that’s just one of umpteen losses and draws every season. Nowhere near the same scrutiny and criticism as there would be if they made the same mistake at a top club. Then there’s the fact your team will always get more press and Tv coverage, with more analysis and criticism in the media. Your argument here makes no sense at all.
1. This can be the case at any club in regards to playing with more talented players than yourself or being sidelined for weeks if you perform poorly.
2. You're expected to win more games, yes, so there can be an argument that 'expected' pressure is higher at United on more occasions than it is at Forest but then there is a likelihood in regards to Forest that more games drawn and lost leads to a threat of relegation whereas there isn't that threat at all really with United and that's a huge pressure swing in the other direction.
3. Contextually it depends. United are usually in the spotlight more than Forest, granted, but there were times last season (when you were winning and Forest were losing and in danger after spending a lot of money) where there was arguably more negative attention and press on Forest.
So yeah, I do think that it's not as straight forward as saying United is more pressure than Forest or -insert any other club the top reds think are inferior- and there is more to it.
bite
Heh. Nearly got me…