Angel Gomes - Will he stay or will he go? | Contract Expired 30th June and he's left the club

[Dante]

Kagawa was taller but simultaneously more lightweight than Scholes. Height is not the only determining factor for physicality, though it can be a severely limiting one.

Gomes would need to become freakishly strong to be able to compensate for his lack of stature (and that's far from a given).

The mentions of Maradonna are way off the mark, imo. His chest had the circumference of a great redwood, and his legs were as beefy as an Olympic cyclist's. Ole has thrown Gomes' contemporaries into the first XI loads of times in the last 18 months. The fact Gomes hasn't been trusted as much indicates one (or both) of two things: his talent isn't up to scratch or his athleticism isn't good enough.

 

[NoPace]

It depends how highly the club rates him (and the extent to which we're capable of evaluation).

If we think he's all that I don't see the issue with giving him 30K. If this is relatively close: https://www.spotrac.com/epl/manchester-united-f.c/payroll/

then you could double the wages for guys like McTominay, Dalot, Fosu-Mensah and Pereira and still recoup it with a single Rojo, Jones or Lingard sale, and you can't tell me the latter 2 couldn't have been shifted considering Prem teams and their love of England capped players.

If the club thinks Gomes isn't going to be a quality player until he's 25 and we can't keep him that long it's a difficult place for sure, but the bigger issue is that club can't really be trusted to evaluate talent anymore.

 

[Icemav]

According to wikipedia he actually made his debut in may 1998 in the cup against lieda, he was 22. He'd made his debut for Barcelona B (in the 3rd division) not the first team before that.

Obviously helping a team get promoted from the 3rd division of their nation to the 2nd in his years from 18-21 is not like playing a bunch of games for the first team of a premier league team that are 5th in the league.

In his first season Barcelona did win the league but again he was 22, not 18.

sigh can't be bothered. He was 18.

 

[roseguy64]

Ole hasn't given him adequate chances and what makes it worse is no one can say that Pereira or Lingard have justified the minutes they've played this season, they've been two of the worst performers in the first team. I don't think Chelsea is necessarily a good move, though side by side if Gomes played for Lampard he would perform better than under Ole from a coaching perspective.

Based on what?

 

[roseguy64]

Moving to Chelsea isn't really about anything else than money. And sadly I don't see this looking like anything else then money. He doesn't have less of a competition at Chelsea even a 60m Pulisic isn't getting all that much of a game time there..

Pretty sure Pulisic has been injured for a decent length of time. Not 100% sure on that though.

 

[Handré1990]

It depends how highly the club rates him (and the extent to which we're capable of evaluation).

If we think he's all that I don't see the issue with giving him 30K. If this is relatively close: https://www.spotrac.com/epl/manchester-united-f.c/payroll/

then you could double the wages for guys like McTominay, Dalot, Fosu-Mensah and Pereira and still recoup it with a single Rojo, Jones or Lingard sale, and you can't tell me the latter 2 couldn't have been shifted considering Prem teams and their love of England capped players.

If the club thinks Gomes isn't going to be a quality player until he's 25 and we can't keep him that long it's a difficult place for sure, but the bigger issue is that club can't really be trusted to evaluate talent anymore.

Can we trust your evaluation of the club’s evaluation of talent? Personally I don’t know. This now has me questioning everything I thought I knew!

 

[sglowrider]

Based on what?

I think is nic/moniker would provide a strong indication of how his views are derived.

 

[roseguy64]

I think is nic/moniker would provide a strong indication of how his views are derived.

Makes sense

 

[passing-wind]

Based on what?

Mount / Gilmour how he impacted the game against Liverpool, you can see how much fluidity Chelsea play with through the midfield. It's a much more feasible environment for a younger player to develop in compared to the pragmatic approach we have exhibited from our creativity in the center.

 

[passing-wind]

I think is nic/moniker would provide a strong indication of how his views are derived.

I don't think Ziyech will play through the midfield at Chelsea but where he has for Ajax on the wing. Which is naturally why the Sancho rumours began to go south after they confirmed interest.

I think Gomes gets plenty of game time at Chelsea if Mount is his only competition in that advanced attacking midfield position. Mount is the best representation of how Angel could potentially develop under Lampard. In my honest opinion if we had Mount at United and Ole in charge of his development I highly doubt he would see much game time here. Solskjaer tactically for me still isn't getting enough fluidity out of our midfield.

 

[roseguy64]

Mount / Gilmour how he impacted the game against Liverpool, you can see how much fluidity Chelsea play with through the midfield. It's a much more feasible environment for a younger player to develop in compared to the pragmatic approach we have exhibited from our creativity in the center.

Oh

 

[LVGSdive]

Messi used to get kicked all over the pitch, non contact yeah sure.

Used to be past tense. So you agree it's not a contact sport anymore?

 

[tenpoless]

Kagawa was taller but simultaneously more lightweight than Scholes. Height is not the only determining factor for physicality, though it can be a severely limiting one.

Gomes would need to become freakishly strong to be able to compensate for his lack of stature (and that's far from a given).

The mentions of Maradonna are way off the mark, imo. His chest had the circumference of a great redwood, and his legs were as beefy as an Olympic cyclist's. Ole has thrown Gomes' contemporaries into the first XI loads of times in the last 18 months. The fact Gomes hasn't been trusted as much indicates one (or both) of two things: his talent isn't up to scratch or his athleticism isn't good enough.

Indeed. Look at the duels between Kante and Pogba. Kante won most of the time.

 

[Champ]

absolute rubbish and pure recency bias. Fred has 2 goals and 4 assists this year (all in the weakest Europa group we have ever had).

in 2015 Ander hit 13 goals and assists, 2016 (11), 2017 (13). most of these contributions were against English competition and not Europa League group stages. Ander also made the Europa team of the season in 2017 and won the Matt Busby player of the season (voted for by us fans!)

If you wanna compare premier league website contributions

Fred has 42 games, 1 assist, 1 goal, 4 big chances created, 6 through balls, 83 tackles, 52 interceptions, 326 recoveries, 196 duels won, 242 duels lost,

Ander has 132 games, 17 assists, 12 goals, 17 big chances created, 40 through balls, 323 tackles, 227 interceptions, 675 recoveries, 633 duels won, 562 duels lost,

obviously it would be clearer if we can compare minutes played but I don't have this data so this is a guideline (if you do then feel free to post them). the difference in contributions is clear as Ander has made 3 times the appearances yet look at the offensive and defensive contributions. Whoscored also has Ander 2017 season far higher rated than Fred this season.

What exactly does Fred do better than Ander again? One can only conclude it's recency bias combined with the fact that Fred was so bad at the start, so him being good now is being amplified

A vote for fans for a fan favourite player does not suggest he is a quality player.

Ander had one good season, all the stats that you've given there suggest Fred will produce similar numbers if he carries on the same way, bar scoring, which isn't a strong part of his game.
Fred has been instrumental to our minor recovery in form towards the latter part of this season.

But anyway I digress, this thread is about Gomes and not the merits of Fred over a player who can't get into PSGs team.

 

[Ekeke]

It's really not, especially when you are 20cm shorter than the average premier league player.

Yeah that makes no sense whatsoever. The reason height might be a factor is because if you a smaller its less likely you'll be as strong and be able to compete for the ball in the air. If you happen to be tiny but are strong and have a big leap so you're able to compete for the ball in the air with players 6 feet tall, then the only difference between a small and normal sized player is visual

 

[Ekeke]

They got the chances because they probably showed in training they were capable enough. I don’t see how you can compare the them to gomes because if they share a similar body size. Talent wise I don’t believe he has it or he would be playing a few games.

"Probably"

So in other words you're guessing both what Xavi and Iniesta were doing and what Gomes is doing based on what you'd like to be the truth

 

[Champ]

"Probably"

So in other words you're guessing both what Xavi and Iniesta were doing and what Gomes is doing based on what you'd like to be the truth

That's all this is anyhow, guess work from everyone.
Gomes had shown in the reserves and youth levels that he's a good player at that level, but something is stopping him from making the step up.
I'm sure you'll try and point to that game against Astana again, I'll retort with his wretched ten/fifteen minutes against West ham etc but something has stopped two managers from using him in the first team over McT, Chong, Greenwood, Williams etc, what do you reckon it is??

 

[Stacks]

A vote for fans for a fan favourite player does not suggest he is a quality player.

Ander had one good season, all the stats that you've given there suggest Fred will produce similar numbers if he carries on the same way, bar scoring, which isn't a strong part of his game.
Fred has been instrumental to our minor recovery in form towards the latter part of this season.

But anyway I digress, this thread is about Gomes and not the merits of Fred over a player who can't get into PSGs team.

I don't want to side step the thread either but the stats suggest Ander was more complete and did more of the defensive actions per game AND added attacking contributions too. which is more desirable? PSG are a much better side than us so what's your point?

again I don't really care too much for Ander as he is getting old and I would rather a younger midfielder like Fred but lets not rewrite history.

 

[TheReligion]

There's obviously a reason Gomes hasn't been afforded as much game time as others. Especially when you consider how much United have provided to a number of players from his age group or below. I also think it's safe to say he hasn't blown anyone anyway with his performances, like Greenwood or Williams for example, so didn't force anyone's hand to keep giving him minutes. That said it doesn't mean he's not a talent and by offering him such a good contract the club are obviously wanting to invest in him for the future. £30k a week is fantastic money when you consider he's not a first team regular, or even bench player, so I don't think he can take issue with that. He's clearly wanting more assurances regarding future playing time but sadly, given the competition, he has to earn it. If he backs himself I'm not sure why he doesn't sign and stay; he won't get exposure to such opportunities elsewhere in England that's for sure and it's clear Ole and Butt like him and are men of their word (see ample chances provided to Andreas and Lingard this season).

All in all I find it hard to be critical of the club. They have backed and rewarded the young batch we have coming through with new contracts and opportunities in the first team. A few have cemented their places in the squad (Williams and Greenwood) and the likes of Mctominay and Rashford have shown it's possible to be first team regulars even at a young age. If Gomes wants to jump the queue and expects a place without working to get it (and that goes for training performances that we aren't privy to) then we shouldn't be too disappointed to see him leave. From what Gomes has said recently though he still loves the club and I wouldn't be surprised if he resigns last minute like Chong. The only thing I can see putting him off is if he's been made aware of our transfer targets and feels they will block his path further. If that's the case then that's a decision for the club and only time will tell if it was correct or not.

TLDR. He's been offered a great contract given the low impact he's made on the first team and is highly regarded by Ole and Butt. It's obvious chances will be there for him if he delivers. He either backs himself and stays or takes a short cut elsewhere.

 

[Ekeke]

That's all this is anyhow, guess work from everyone.
Gomes had shown in the reserves and youth levels that he's a good player at that level, but something is stopping him from making the step up.
I'm sure you'll try and point to that game against Astana again, I'll retort with his wretched ten/fifteen minutes against West ham etc but something has stopped two managers from using him in the first team over McT, Chong, Greenwood, Williams etc, what do you reckon it is??

Contract, injuries and us having more options central than wide. I'm not saying good options, Lingard should go and Andreas did a decent job in the first half of the season but he wasnt playing well enough for Gomes to not also get chances. Mata is another that isnt good enough to be blocking the way for young players

 

[Adam-Utd]

Indeed. Look at the duels between Kante and Pogba. Kante won most of the time.

What? Pogba bosses him every time they play

 

[TMDaines]

If he doesn't want to stay, I'm not that arsed. Disappointed, but not gutted. I think he'll be a Carlos Vela standard of player at best, someone who has a good career and has flashes of real brilliance that might make you think he was one who got away, but who in reality is not good enough for the top European clubs. I'll be stunned if we have the same Pogba remorse. He's young so there's a chance he goes somewhere and really kicks on, but I don't think United are best served tying themselves into knots to try and maximise his development. He's not shown enough.

 

[pascell]

Mitten saying we're still in contract negotiations with him and we're calm about the situation.

 

[Champ]

Contract, injuries and us having more options central than wide. I'm not saying good options, Lingard should go and Andreas did a decent job in the first half of the season but he wasnt playing well enough for Gomes to not also get chances. Mata is another that isnt good enough to be blocking the way for young players

Mata in this a better player right now than Gomes, that's why he is getting into the team ahead of him.

 

[Champ]

I don't want to side step the thread either but the stats suggest Ander was more complete and did more of the defensive actions per game AND added attacking contributions too. which is more desirable? PSG are a much better side than us so what's your point?

again I don't really care too much for Ander as he is getting old and I would rather a younger midfielder like Fred but lets not rewrite history.

I don't need to rewrite history when Fred is on track for similar if not better stats than Herrera.
Fred has influenced our game far more than Ander ever did, I always thought Herrera was a good workhorse, someone who fans appreciated as they worked hard, would chip in with the occasional goal etc but rarely influenced games.

 

[tenpoless]

What? Pogba bosses him every time they play

Not nutmegs or dribbles, pyshical battle. Kante was capable of holding his ground against much taller player.
I think height shouldn't be an issue for Gomes

 

[Handré1990]

There's obviously a reason Gomes hasn't been afforded as much game time as others. Especially when you consider how much United have provided to a number of players from his age group or below. I also think it's safe to say he hasn't blown anyone anyway with his performances, like Greenwood or Williams for example, so didn't force anyone's hand to keep giving him minutes. That said it doesn't mean he's not a talent and by offering him such a good contract the club are obviously wanting to invest in him for the future. £30k a week is fantastic money when you consider he's not a first team regular, or even bench player, so I don't think he can take issue with that. He's clearly wanting more assurances regarding future playing time but sadly, given the competition, he has to earn it. If he backs himself I'm not sure why he doesn't sign and stay; he won't get exposure to such opportunities elsewhere in England that's for sure and it's clear Ole and Butt like him and are men of their word (see ample chances provided to Andreas and Lingard this season).

All in all I find it hard to be critical of the club. They have backed and rewarded the young batch we have coming through with new contracts and opportunities in the first team. A few have cemented their places in the squad (Williams and Greenwood) and the likes of Mctominay and Rashford have shown it's possible to be first team regulars even at a young age. If Gomes wants to jump the queue and expects a place without working to get it (and that goes for training performances that we aren't privy to) then we shouldn't be too disappointed to see him leave. From what Gomes has said recently though he still loves the club and I wouldn't be surprised if he resigns last minute like Chong. The only thing I can see putting him off is if he's been made aware of our transfer targets and feels they will block his path further. If that's the case then that's a decision for the club and only time will tell if it was correct or not.

TLDR. He's been offered a great contract given the low impact he's made on the first team and is highly regarded by Ole and Butt. It's obvious chances will be there for him if he delivers. He either backs himself and stays or takes a short cut elsewhere.

Yeah, I agree with this. It’s all up to Gomes now. If he stays he should have more than enough opportunities to play lots of games. Bruno can’t play every game.

 

[Ekeke]

Mata in this a better player right now than Gomes, that's why he is getting into the team ahead of him.

If that was the case then we wouldnt be offering him a new contract. Mata has played poorly

 

[Champ]

If that was the case then we wouldnt be offering him a new contract. Mata has played poorly

Mata has been good,
He is also under contract for another year, I believe we may even have an option for another year, although this coming year may be his optional extension.
He signed that last year, no need for a new contract.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Yeah that makes no sense whatsoever. The reason height might be a factor is because if you a smaller its less likely you'll be as strong and be able to compete for the ball in the air. If you happen to be tiny but are strong and have a big leap so you're able to compete for the ball in the air with players 6 feet tall, then the only difference between a small and normal sized player is visual

your logic makes no sense whatsoever. Where's the evidence that Angel Gomes has the strength and leap capability to successfully battle premier League players who are 20cm taller and outweight him by 20kgs or more? You're completely ignoring the realities of physics based on your conviction that he retains some extraterrestrial ability to leap tall buildings in a single bound. He simply lacks the physical rigour at present to compete in a physical league.

 

[Ali Dia]

If that was the case then we wouldnt be offering him a new contract. Mata has played poorly

to be fair Mata has been a lot better since Bruno came in, his best form in years. The ball is moving faster which will suit more technical and less physical players. Maybe it would suit Gomes too. I think he’s making a mistake if he leaves this summer but if nothing has changed by next summer then he should definitely be looking for regular football by then.

 

[JohnnyKills]

The fact that none of the really top teams appear to be trying to sign him is telling.

 

[Ekeke]

your logic makes no sense whatsoever. Where's the evidence that Angel Gomes has the strength and leap capability to successfully battle premier League players who are 20cm taller and outweight him by 20kgs or more? You're completely ignoring the realities of physics based on your conviction that he retains some extraterrestrial ability to leap tall buildings in a single bound. He simply lacks the physical rigour at present to compete in a physical league.

We werent talking about him. You were literally given the example of someone having a big leap and being strong

 

[Ekeke]

Mata has been good,
He is also under contract for another year, I believe we may even have an option for another year, although this coming year may be his optional extension.
He signed that last year, no need for a new contract.

Talking about Gomes contract. If hes worse than Mata's performances we'd do well to not offer him a new contract

 

[duffer]

The fact that none of the really top teams appear to be trying to sign him is telling.

Man United and Chelsea seem to want him, that's not bad.

 

[Rolaholic]

The fact that none of the really top teams appear to be trying to sign him is telling.

He's been linked to Barca ,Arsenal and Chelsea over the last few months with his agent reportedly having already met with Chelsea's sporting director.

Would be a real shame losing one of our academy lads to a club like Chelsea known more for shipping and loaning out talent ad nauseum over giving them chances in the 1st team.

If you would have told me that Chong would've signed long term with us with Gomes leaving at the start of the year I wouldn't have believed it but it seems that's where we are.

It's especially disappointing that he apparently wants to leave over a lack of action given the amount of playing time we've afforded the likes of Pereira and Lingard this season who you'd think don't figure in our long term plans...

 

[JohnnyLaw]

It's not just his weight, it's his height. Modric is 5' 6", Gomes is 5' 3". Combined height and weight he's just to small overall to cut it in the Premier League.

According to Transfermarkt he’s 1,68 m tall. Exactly the same as Scholes who came through at a time where the physical side of the premier league was emphasized alot more than it is now.
If they’re measurements are correct he’s tallet than Torreira and exactly Kantés height.

 

[POF]

Lots of talk about his performance vs Astana at home in this thread, but it's Astana away that gives the best impression of why he doesn't play.

Defensively he's a massive weak link. He failed to track his runner for Astana's winner because he just didn't have the athleticism to stay with him.

The midfield 3 at United (including the number 10) all have a lot of defensive responsibility which frees up Rashford/Martial on the left and Greenwood/Mata/James on the right to play a more advanced role.

Say what you want about Pereira or Lingard but even on their worst day they put in a defensive shift which gives the front 3 more attacking freedom. Gomes can't do that which is why he's being played wide.

He doesn't play for the same reason you don't see many 15 year olds play in the EPL. It's not his height. It's the fact a strong gust of wind would blow him into the stands.

I'd like to see him get more minutes off the bench where he can definitely add creativity when chasing games. But, unless he works on his athleticism, he's years away from being a starter at a top team.

 

[BiggusCrickus]

Gomes should do what Sancho or Lookman have done . More to German and find his feet. At the moment he is not got a chance of starting in a role for Utd that would see him play well . Would you drop Bruno for Gomes... I dont think so. And Gomes is not the box to box player that a Fred or Mctominay are. And he aint a holding player like Matic. Add in that Pogba will be back into that midfield and Gomes is well down the list. For his career the smart thing is to not sign with Utd and move else where for first team football . Or he signs with Utd with the promise of a loan move to a good club next season to further his development

 

[KennyBurner]

"Probably"

So in other words you're guessing both what Xavi and Iniesta were doing and what Gomes is doing based on what you'd like to be the truth

They got the chances because they showed in training they were capable enough. I don’t see how you can compare the them to gomes because if they share a similar body size. Talent wise I don’t believe he has it or he would be playing a few games.

There I fixed it.