Angel Gomes (United confirm departure)

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You would have thought that if he had gotten Lingards minutes in 2019 and 2020 that he would have produced more than.

It would have been an understandable result had we had Bruno this whole time, but when you see how many appearances Lingard and Pereira clicked up, this could prove to be a massive error.
 
I always looked at him as a 2 season project before he’s even ready to be at least squad player for us. He does need to fill out and the other thing I saw is he’s going to be one of those players where we’d have to figure out what’s his best position.

Good luck to him, but I really don’t see us regretting this in the future. I hope for his sake he chooses his new club wisely and goes somewhere where he can actually develop as opposed to whose the biggest name paying the most.
 
Angel has always been an interesting one. He's a very good player with the ball at his feet, a very talented lad. However, there's the obvious question of his stature (he's a good 3 inches shorter than Messi who is the best of all time) and he's even an inch shorter than the likes of Ryan Fraser, who is I think the shortest established player in the league. Butt was right, he needs a very specific niche.
 
SadlerMUFC said:
Don't care what he did for England. He hasn't done anything for us. And to say he was one of Englands best players is a huge stretch. He played decent but most people were questioning why he was even playing. He's had one decent season. That's not even close to being enough to justify why he is still here and still taking valuable playing time from youngsters who could have a future here...
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The reason Angel is not getting valuable playing time is because he obviously doesn't want it enough.
 
If you don‘t manage to convince the manager to choose you ahead of Lingard and others, then you probably haven‘t been working hard or smart enough during training. There aren‘t many top clubs that will give their own youth opportunities to prove themselves. United does but didn‘t consider him good enough for more, so it‘s a good move to let him go and it would be a good move for him to find a mid to bottom table club that can give him time on the pitch. Nobody to blame and no mistakes being made here afaic.
 
UnitedSofa said:
Just how have you come to that conclusion other than a personal dislike for Lingard?

Scapegoat Lingard is it on here?

The guy has barely played lately, yet he’s partly the reason as to why, a player who has shown nothing of merit, to want to leave?
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Read my full post where I mention the part that being far behind might have been the last straw. And also the part where I've stated that Angel Gomes hasn't made most of his opportunities.

But, as a fan, it is natural to think that a promising youngster such as Gomes could've been afforded more minutes in place of Lingard. And how I came to the conclusion is how anyone should arrive at one, which is through data. Lingard has 36 appearances this season vs. 6 for Gomes. In the PL, Lingard has 20 appearances (0 goals and assists) while Gomes has 2 substitute appearances.

Even though it doesn't look as likely as was in the case of Pogba, but if he becomes a good player, we might rue the fact that we were busy giving Lingard, Pereira and Mata minutes while Gomes left the club. At best, we've lost a talented prospect, at worst we've lost a half decent asset.
 
Class of 63 said:
The club rightly felt Garner, Chong and Gomes would benefit more by playing 6/8 games in the Europa League than 20/25 in The Championship, or lower.
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Wrongly. Gomes made 3 appearances in the Europa League. Garner 4
 
youngrell said:
You know the competition is still going, right?
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Like he is going to play them in the knockouts when he didn't even start them that much in the group stages... sure.
Attempting to suggest that is better than a season on loan is a farce.
 
Cassidy said:
Like he is going to play them in the knockouts when he didn't even start them that much in the group stages... sure.
Attempting to suggest that is better than a season on loan is a farce.
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I didn’t suggest that, just pointing out there are more EL games to come, and being 5-0 up vs LASK I’m sure they would get some time in the second leg there at the very least.
 
Guess it has been on the cards for a while that he was likely leaving. Shame as he looked like a quality player at times, and was built up as one for the future. Though looks like it hasn't worked out, whether we didn't value him the same as what he did, or he has left for more money or game time, it doesn't really matter in the end. Best of luck to him, and on to hyping up the next kid in the academy.
 
I think we've made too much hype around this in truth.

He clearly hasn't shown in training he is worthwhile getting minutes. That coupled with his reluctance to sign a new contract has ultimately told us all we need to know.

Not good enough, not committed enough.

We let hundreds of young players go, some look good and go on to good things, others establish a solid footballing career.

We've give him a good start, good luck to him.

Wasn't meant to be here due to his own doing. If he signed and remained patient, he might have had a good chance. We would have offered him a good deal, if he doesn't want it enough here then we shouldn't want him here
 
Sad Chris said:
If you don‘t manage to convince the manager to choose you ahead of Lingard and others, then you probably haven‘t been working hard or smart enough during training. There aren‘t many top clubs that will give their own youth opportunities to prove themselves. United does but didn‘t consider him good enough for more, so it‘s a good move to let him go and it would be a good move for him to find a mid to bottom table club that can give him time on the pitch. Nobody to blame and no mistakes being made here afaic.
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I think this is it for me really. I just don't honestly think Ole and the like saw him as ready for the PL, there was/is probably faith he would be one day? But not yet, and if he's been talked into going elsewhere then alright. He's never looked PL ready when he's played, so sometimes you have to back the people who see him playing every single day.
 
It's strange. When he was lighting it up for the youth teams I remember him scoring nearly every game/other game. His end product was great. But once moved up the levels I don't believe his end product was his forte? At least for the first team he didn't really look a young player who was a constant threat.
 
There was a period over Christmas that was the perfect opportunity for him to play. Andreas and Jesse were really off the boil and we were looking for another number 10 to step in but it never happened for him either through injury or lack of application in training or the chances he did get.

He'll do well elsewhere and every time he does a bit of magic a thread will get bumped.
 
Well, considering Rashford is the only player who's even threatened to be top class to come out of our academy since 2004, chances are he wouldn't have been any good anyway.
 
Drainy said:
There was a period over Christmas that was the perfect opportunity for him to play. Andreas and Jesse were really off the boil and we were looking for another number 10 to step in but it never happened for him either through injury or lack of application in training or the chances he did get.

He'll do well elsewhere and every time he does a bit of magic a thread will get bumped.
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Honestly his size is his biggest problem. He is absoloutely tiny and not even well built in his frame either. Other players like verratti( who is still taller than him) are well built helping or reduce the effect of their size. Now he has plenty of tools that he could develop into a top player one day but he still needs to develop physically before he could get thrown in the deep end of English football. Look at how James has been bullied at times this season, and now look at it 10x worse and you can see why he hasn't started.
 
bondsname said:
Obviously it's hard to tell if Gomes is going to become a world-beater at this point. He has barely played for the first team. I'm just saying, if you read what Nicky Butt said about him it does seem like he is extremely talented.

I get your point though. Maybe I pushed it a bit when I said "generational talent" but you get what I mean.
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Thats the only reason I picked you up on it. There’s players performing at world class levels (stats wise before anyone jumps on me) like Sancho that even then haven’t earned the right to be considered generational. Even Mbappe some would argue isn’t.

He is extremely talented. A terrific ball playing midfielder but also as another poster pointed out he’s a niche player or luxury player. He has to fit into the system under Ole and honestly I don’t see him displacing any of the first XI anytime soon.

His best bet is to get regular playtime which I don’t see happening at a club of United’s stature so maybe Portugal or Spain would be an option?
 
amolbhatia50k said:
It's strange. When he was lighting it up for the youth teams I remember him scoring nearly every game/other game. His end product was great. But once moved up the levels I don't believe his end product was his forte? At least for the first team he didn't really look a young player who was a constant threat.
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End product has never been his forte, controlling games is. Either way he still got a goal or assist every 130 mins overall for the u23s and every 70 mins this season. Both exceptional levels of end product.
 
If he's leaving, it's because our management don't think he's worth the risk.

I trust Ole, Phelan and Carrick on this. They've already shown how good they are with youth development. Unlike Pogba in 2012 when Fergie was prioritising the league title so he could retire, this season kids are regularly being given a chance.

With all that in mind, my only disappointment is that Gomes couldn't live up to his potential.
 
Dante said:
If he's leaving, it's because our management don't think he's worth the risk.

I trust Ole, Phelan and Carrick on this. They've already shown how good they are with youth development. Unlike Pogba in 2012 when Fergie was prioritising the league title so he could retire, this season kids are regularly being given a chance.

With all that in mind, my only disappointment is that Gomes couldn't live up to his potential.
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Well he's been offered a good contract for someone who is not even starting and rarely getting used as a sub.

He's leaving because he doesn't think he is getting and will get enough game time.
 
Cassidy said:
Like he is going to play them in the knockouts when he didn't even start them that much in the group stages... sure.
Attempting to suggest that is better than a season on loan is a farce.
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Why does it matter if they start or not, Chong has featured in 5/8, Garner 4/8 and Gomes 3/8(despite being injured for a chunk of the early season), it's all valuable first-team experience, and then it's up to them, if they perform they get more game time, Greenwood is a nailed on Premier League player now(starter/bench)because in his Europa League chances he proved time and time again the Manager could trust him, so far the others haven't. Maybe they would in the next match, that's their challenge.

And if you don't think in the case of Gomes he wouldn't develop more as a player by getting more game-time in the Europa League including potentially 18/25 minutes in a semi-final away to say Inter Milan than he would getting kicked from pillar to post as an UNITED loanie at say a Blackburn for half a season then i'm glad you're not at Old Trafford on the development side.
 
For all those complaining that United can’t attract young players with Gomes leaving, we are on the verge of signing La Masia Barca product, Marc Jurado. He’s only 16 and is reportedly a very highly rated defender in their academy. This is how it works. Also many showing signs of selective memory forgetting that we beat out other clubs for Hannibal Mejbri last year. Some perspective for the sensationalists on Gomes and our club’s apparent inability to do anything right with young players.
 
If he can get more money than we're apparently offering him elsewhere then he should take it imo. If he fails to make the grade (my personal opinion is he'll never have the required physicality to make it regardless of his talent) in a roundabout way this could end up be one of his most lucrative deals of his career. Being a free transfer of 'highly rated United prospect' is arguably his biggest selling point, once he starts getting game time it may well go the other way if he has to drop down the ladder
 
Class of 63 said:
Why does it matter if they start or not, Chong has featured in 5/8, Garner 4/8 and Gomes 3/8(despite being injured for a chunk of the early season), it's all valuable first-team experience, and then it's up to them, if they perform they get more game time, Greenwood is a nailed on Premier League player now(starter/bench)because in his Europa League chances he proved time and time again the Manager could trust him, so far the others haven't. Maybe they would in the next match, that's their challenge.

And if you don't think in the case of Gomes he wouldn't develop more as a player by getting more game-time in the Europa League including potentially 18/25 minutes in a semi-final away to say Inter Milan than he would getting kicked from pillar to post as an UNITED loanie at say a Blackburn for half a season then i'm glad you're not at Old Trafford on the development side.
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Everything we know about youth development points to the need for consistent minutes week in, week out. Young players need to get accustomed to the pace of senior football, even if that's a level down. It helps them develop physically & helps develop the ability to read the game. Playing sporadic minutes in what amounts to glorified training exercises (i.e. the EL group stage) is a poor substitute.

It's patently ludicrous to suggest that playing 20 minutes against Inter (and only then if the result is already determined, mind) is more beneficial to a young player's development than regular football in the championship. Do you really think Mount, Abraham, Tomori, and James would be better contributors to Chelsea's first team if they'd played ~3 games worth of minutes total in the EL as opposed to 30-40 in the championship?
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Everything we know about youth development points to the need for consistent minutes week in, week out. Young players need to get accustomed to the pace of senior football, even if that's a level down. It helps them develop physically & helps develop the ability to read the game. Playing sporadic minutes in what amounts to glorified training exercises (i.e. the EL group stage) is a poor substitute.

It's patently ludicrous to suggest that playing 20 minutes against Inter (and only then if the result is already determined, mind) is more beneficial to a young player's development than regular football in the championship. Do you really think Mount, Abraham, Tomori, and James would be better contributors to Chelsea's first team if they'd played ~3 games worth of minutes total in the EL as opposed to 30-40 in the championship?
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That's generally a good rule but for Gomes it wouldn't work. He needs to play a certain way and putting him in a physical hoofball team or league would do him more harm than good. Maybe there's a championship team that would suit him but the majority wouldn't. If you put Scholes/Xavi into the Championship at 19 years old it would have seriously harmed their game. I think the EL is the perfect place for Gomes to develop tbh.

I'm also tired of people using the physicality of the PL as a reason he would struggle. No, it depends only on the way your own team play, as painful as it is to say from a United fan Guardiola has shown everyone that. Continental teams come up against physical teams and they simply move the ball quickly enough so you don't enter into a physical battle with the other team, just as Scholes allowed us to do when he was here and Bruno has now allowed us to do now.

Gomes should sign a contract and get 10-15 games next season and build from there.
 
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TheMagicFoolBus said:
Everything we know about youth development points to the need for consistent minutes week in, week out. Young players need to get accustomed to the pace of senior football, even if that's a level down. It helps them develop physically & helps develop the ability to read the game. Playing sporadic minutes in what amounts to glorified training exercises (i.e. the EL group stage) is a poor substitute.

It's patently ludicrous to suggest that playing 20 minutes against Inter (and only then if the result is already determined, mind) is more beneficial to a young player's development than regular football in the championship. Do you really think Mount, Abraham, Tomori, and James would be better contributors to Chelsea's first team if they'd played ~3 games worth of minutes total in the EL as opposed to 30-40 in the championship?
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It was just a suggestion. Let's go with he's either not 'wanting' it enough in training, or Ole doesn't rate him then.
 
Prodigal7 said:
That's generally a good rule but for Gomes it wouldn't work. He needs to play a certain way and putting him in a physical hoofball team or league would do him more harm than good. Maybe there's a championship team that would suit him but the majority wouldn't. If you put Scholes/Xavi into the Championship at 19 years old it would have seriously harmed their game.

I'm also tired of people using the physicality of the PL as a reason he would struggle. No, it depends only on the way your own team play, as painful as it is to say from a United fan Guardiola has shown everyone that. Continental teams come up against physical teams and they simply move the ball quickly enough so you don't enter into a physical battle with the other team, just as Scholes allowed us to do when he was here and Bruno has now allowed us to do now.

Gomes should sign a contract and get 10-15 games next season and build from there.
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Generally I think the level of the Championship has improved dramatically of late; for instance Brentford, Leeds, & WBA have all played decent stuff. Lampard's Derby last year were in many ways the opposite of a hoofball team (to their detriment at times). That said, I do agree that finding the right fit would have been imperitive.

I'd also slightly push back on the Scholes / Xavi comparisons - more so than just about any position, the deep-lying playmaker is dependent on their teammates' quality to be successful. There have been small(ish) technical attacking players who have thrived in the Championship of late (and arguably been helped by the exposure to physical play) - James Maddison, Jack Grealish, Said Benrahma, Mason Mount, Harry Wilson, etc. have all had very good seasons there.

Regardless, he clearly should have gone on loan and if it's true that Ole blocked a move, you can hardly fault him for being frustrated at the situation.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Generally I think the level of the Championship has improved dramatically of late; for instance Brentford, Leeds, & WBA have all played decent stuff. Lampard's Derby last year were in many ways the opposite of a hoofball team (to their detriment at times). That said, I do agree that finding the right fit would have been imperitive.

I'd also slightly push back on the Scholes / Xavi comparisons - more so than just about any position, the deep-lying playmaker is dependent on their teammates' quality to be successful. There have been small(ish) technical attacking players who have thrived in the Championship of late (and arguably been helped by the exposure to physical play) - James Maddison, Jack Grealish, Said Benrahma, Mason Mount, Harry Wilson, etc. have all had very good seasons there.

Regardless, he clearly should have gone on loan and if it's true that Ole blocked a move, you can hardly fault him for being frustrated at the situation.
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Fair points. I still think a loan to Serie A or La Liga would be most beneficial for him. Or perhaps a ball playing team in Ligue 1.
Kick and run culture is still prevalent in the Championship as a whole and given that Gomes is on the very extreme side of small and technical it would be a safer bet for him to play on the continent for a year.
 
Prodigal7 said:
Fair points. I still think a loan to Serie A or La Liga would be most beneficial for him. Or perhaps a ball playing team in Ligue 1.
Kick and run culture is still prevalent in the Championship as a whole and given that Gomes is on the very extreme side of small and technical it would be a safer bet for him to play on the continent for a year.
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I think that makes sense, especially from a footballing perspective. Just to be clear, I'd not argue that the Championship was the best fit for Gomes; I was pushing back on the argument that a handful of minutes in the Europa League against poor opposition would have been better for him than a season in the second tier. Hell, even if he'd gone abroad to Portugal or the Netherlands he'd be in a better position so long as he got regular minutes.
 
Prodigal7 said:
That's generally a good rule but for Gomes it wouldn't work. He needs to play a certain way and putting him in a physical hoofball team or league would do him more harm than good. Maybe there's a championship team that would suit him but the majority wouldn't. If you put Scholes/Xavi into the Championship at 19 years old it would have seriously harmed their game. I think the EL is the perfect place for Gomes to develop tbh.

I'm also tired of people using the physicality of the PL as a reason he would struggle. No, it depends only on the way your own team play, as painful as it is to say from a United fan Guardiola has shown everyone that. Continental teams come up against physical teams and they simply move the ball quickly enough so you don't enter into a physical battle with the other team, just as Scholes allowed us to do when he was here and Bruno has now allowed us to do now.

Gomes should sign a contract and get 10-15 games next season and build from there.
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Spot on.

There's far more examples of failed loans to the championship than success. The Championship is a brutal league, competitive, fast paced. I'd struggle to see Gomes be a success there. I doubt Greenwood, Ching or Garner would handle the physicality as well.

Gomes should stay, but looks like he isn't. I trust our youth policy. We've offered him a damn good deal by all accounts, if he doesnt want it good luck to him
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
I think that makes sense, especially from a footballing perspective. Just to be clear, I'd not argue that the Championship was the best fit for Gomes; I was pushing back on the argument that a handful of minutes in the Europa League against poor opposition would have been better for him than a season in the second tier. Hell, even if he'd gone abroad to Portugal or the Netherlands he'd be in a better position so long as he got regular minutes.
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always thought that would be a good fit...
culturally its pretty easy for somebody from england to go to holland with no linguistic barriers and probably it would be a level of football he would get games and developed - im surprised we didnt loan him this season ( and chong) but too late now... probably he goes to chelsea and they send him to vitesse for 6 months / a year
 
sun_tzu said:
always thought that would be a good fit...
culturally its pretty easy for somebody from england to go to holland with no linguistic barriers and probably it would be a level of football he would get games and developed - im surprised we didnt loan him this season ( and chong) but too late now... probably he goes to chelsea and they send him to vitesse for 6 months / a year
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Funny enough Chelsea have recently limited the players they've sent to Vitesse - it seems the club has pivoted towards loans in the Championship much more. Minimal culture shock for a young player, much easier to keep tabs on them / communicate regularly, and I think Chelsea are concerned that football in the Netherlands isn't sufficiently physical to prepare youngsters for the realities of the English game (the example here being someone like Lewis Baker who thrived over two seasons at Vitesse and then found it rough going in England).

For a player like Gomes though I think it would have done him a lot of good, especially if he'd gone last season.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
For a player like Gomes though I think it would have done him a lot of good, especially if he'd gone last season.
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I agree - I wonder if loosing him due to lack of game time (apparently) will influence how we see Hanibal Mejrbi developed (more game time at united or a loan)... he will be 18 next season the same as gomes last season)
 
sun_tzu said:
I agree - I wonder if loosing him due to lack of game time (apparently) will influence how we see Hanibal Mejrbi developed (more game time at united or a loan)... he will be 18 next season the same as gomes last season)
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Yeah I think that is right about the sweet spot for elite prospects - if they are already doing well in the U-23s at that age then a loan and regular minutes seems the ideal step up to continue their development. Saw a quote somewhere that Ole envisions him as the 6th midfielder for next year - for me he'd be better suited going out, provided it's to a sensible club with a good relationship so there are assurances over playing time, how the player is handled, etc.
 
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