With Bruno coming in now, he is most definately gone I think.
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As much as I've always felt he's a fantastic talent there has to be something missing from his game that is preventing the step up. If people honestly think we are denying a player game time that would improve us they must be pretty mad.
Personally think it's his physical ability, which if it's the case I don't know why he'd think it will be any different elsewhere. Some players develop early others need to wait until they are 21/22. It annoys me to say this but Lingard (Yes I know he's shit) is an example of this, he didn't break through until he was at least 22 years of age.
Personally think it's his physical ability, which if it's the case I don't know why he'd think it will be any different elsewhere. Some players develop early others need to wait until they are 21/22. It annoys me to say this but Lingard (Yes I know he's shit) is an example of this, he didn't break through until he was at least 22 years of age.
Agree. Scholes breakout year was the 94/95 season if I remember correctly, and he would've turned 21 during that year.
He is just not ready for the first team and is very impatient to wait and fight for his spot and time
We've bungled this one I think. At his size and style and talent he was never going to break in so young, we should have paid him good wages and done a 2 year loan type thing like Madrid did with Hakimi. A club like Norwich (or in the Champo Leeds or Fulham) who play the ball a lot but could use talent would have been a nice fit. Maybe even Celtic or Rangers.
It's a similar case to where fergie told lingard that he'd develop and break through later due to his size. That's the difference that makes or breaks a player - mentality to be patient and succeed.
I haven't seen anything saying he had signed a pre contract agreement with another club. We should give him as much game time between now and the end of the season to encourage him to sign a new contract. From what I have seen of him he is so much better than both Andreas and Jesse. Size is not relevant. Just needs to add some upper body weight
I think he'll make it elsewhere, it just might take a little while. Real shame it most likely won't be here.
Against Norwich U23, it was clear why he isn't getting time in the first team. His pass for the goal was superb, something not all can pull off but his overall game was just okay. For a player who is striving to start for the first team, being okay in U23 game is not good enough. He just doesn't influence the game that much and gets pushed around quite easily even in U23 game.
I am not sure if he will get time to play even if he moves to another team as I don't think he is ready to play for senior team yet. People take Lingard example that surely he won't be worse than Lingard, need to understand that we should protect and provide the best development scenario for our youngsters especially if they are as talented as Gomes is. Just because he might be equally useless or maybe bit better than Lingard doesn't mean we should throw him in the first team. Confidence is a major factor in young player development and we need to protect him from eventual public criticism that will be levelled against him once he starts featuring more as his physique is not there yet.
Another one I am not sure about is Garner. I know he keeps getting mentioned but tell you frankly, I don't see anything special in him.
I am not sure if he will get time to play even if he moves to another team as I don't think he is ready to play for senior team yet. People take Lingard example that surely he won't be worse than Lingard, need to understand that we should protect and provide the best development scenario for our youngsters especially if they are as talented as Gomes is. Just because he might be equally useless or maybe bit better than Lingard doesn't mean we should throw him in the first team. Confidence is a major factor in young player development and we need to protect him from eventual public criticism that will be levelled against him once he starts featuring more as his physique is not there yet.
Another one I am not sure about is Garner. I know he keeps getting mentioned but tell you frankly, I don't see anything special in him.
Yes, he is quite slight, but skill wise, and awareness, he is way in front of those two. I cringe when I see Lingard starting, he may have had a great spell several years ago, but he is not performing very well at all, I would much rather have Gomes in the team, he is one player (like Mata), who could create something out of nothing, and give us that scrappy 1-0 win against defensive minded teams. Pereira is a better player than Lingard, but he seems to fall between not being a 10, not really box to box, a not really a winger, but a bit of all three. I would keep him as a squad player short term, and see if he improves. I think Gomes just needs games in the first team, he would get used to the physicality in time.
the only reason he’s not playing is because he’s not signed a new deal.
That’s fine with me. If he doesn’t want to play here, he can gamble on going somewhere for free - maybe he thinks he can do a Pogba.
Or maybe he will go the same way that Zeki Fryers did.
Either way I feel that Brandon Williams, Mason Greenwood and Dean Henderson have all shown us a lot more potential this season. I think Gomes is clearly going to be a very good player, but if he’s made his mind up to leave on a free then whatever.
That’s fine with me. If he doesn’t want to play here, he can gamble on going somewhere for free - maybe he thinks he can do a Pogba.
Or maybe he will go the same way that Zeki Fryers did.
Either way I feel that Brandon Williams, Mason Greenwood and Dean Henderson have all shown us a lot more potential this season. I think Gomes is clearly going to be a very good player, but if he’s made his mind up to leave on a free then whatever.
Well put. For all United’s faults in recent years, developing and integrating youth players has been a consistent strength. I mean, surely the very fact that we’re so up and down and lacking quality represents an opportunity for young players that feel like they’ve got what it takes. We’re a great platform at the moment for young talent to prove themselves and if Gomes isn’t up for it then it’s high loss.
Yeah if he can’t get starts under Ole in this current United squad then that’s on him, something must be missing and I agree it is likely the physicality.
Ole has literally given game time to as many youth players he can in areas where we need it - no.10 was clearly one of those because Lingard and Pereira have struggled and we’ve just signed a bloody replacement!
If he was good enough, he absolutely would have got games, regardless of if he was leaving or not. Does anyone really think Ole is a vindictive person? All he ever talks about are people being “great lads” etc so the one thing you can say about him is he’s genuine and has a heart.
I watched Norwich and Gomes just doesn’t impact the game enough. He got an assist with a deft lofted ball but honestly, in the premier league a proper defender would have intercepted that easily, it was far TOO cute. Those are the sort of balls that only work in Sunday league and youth games.
If he was good enough, he absolutely would have got games, regardless of if he was leaving or not. Does anyone really think Ole is a vindictive person? All he ever talks about are people being “great lads” etc so the one thing you can say about him is he’s genuine and has a heart.
I watched Norwich and Gomes just doesn’t impact the game enough. He got an assist with a deft lofted ball but honestly, in the premier league a proper defender would have intercepted that easily, it was far TOO cute. Those are the sort of balls that only work in Sunday league and youth games.
Seems you just managed to watch one youth game and rushed to a conclusion, which is not really new. For a start, Gomes hasn't really been active on the field for a while, in competitive games. He's basically pulled from the U23, and hardly got time in the senior team. You don't keep some mechanical devices inactive for a while and expect they will be performing at top levels in the first days after being returned to service. It's not different from a football player. Was he not involved in the build up to the second goal?
The whole talk about protecting him and not shattering his confidence is unfounded by the facts on ground
1.Greenwood, even though he has scored a couple of great goals, has also played badly to very badly in some games. That didn't stop Ole from continuing to use him from time to time. 2. Brandon had one or two bad games after his good start, and many here were screaming he wouldn't make it. Others, not for the first time, began to attack "deluded fans who think every youth that shows sign should be used by Ole or bla bla bla" (words in inverted comma paraphrashed). He still got time, he wasn't thrown back to the U-23 to protect him. 3. Chong, should I even go on? He's been lost almost every time he stepped out for the senior team, with bad performance after bad performance, yet Ole continues to give him game time. Note at these 3 youth players were always played in their natural or preferred position. The few and very limited times Gomes hasn't been played in his preferred position (10; AM), he hasn't been anywhere close to the bad form of Lingard especially.Excuses again. Why has Ole continued to play Lingard who has been crap for over a year?
Because he offers more to the team than Angel. Also, Lingard hasn’t actually played that much so that’s not much of an argument.Seems you just managed to watch one youth game and rushed to a conclusion, which is not really new. For a start, Gomes hasn't really been active on the field for a while, in competitive games. He's basically pulled from the U23, and hardly got time in the senior team. You don't keep some mechanical devices inactive for a while and expect they will be performing at top levels in the first days after being returned to service. It's not different from a football player. Was he not involved in the build up to the second goal?
The whole talk about protecting him and not shattering his confidence is unfounded by the facts on ground
Excuses again. Why has Ole continued to play Lingard who has been crap for over a year?
Whenever anyone says “he plays Lingard and Pereira more” I don’t think that makes any sense because there is solid proof (Williams, Greenwood, hell even Tuanzebe and Garner early on) that if you are genuinely the best option for the job, you’ll get game time.
you have to take it and impress. Gomes hasn’t done that.
We don't know what is happening on training but i think that Ole fecked up with him. With Lingard in shit form and Pereira being average we should have give him run of games.
Or at least try him on the left.
Or at least try him on the left.
Well I have watched almost all reserves games this season along with U18's whenever it has been telecasted on Mutv. So I guess you should just state your opinion rather than conclude how I end up forming mine.Seems you just managed to watch one youth game and rushed to a conclusion, which is not really new. For a start, Gomes hasn't really been active on the field for a while, in competitive games. He's basically pulled from the U23, and hardly got time in the senior team. You don't keep some mechanical devices inactive for a while and expect they will be performing at top levels in the first days after being returned to service. It's not different from a football player. Was he not involved in the build up to the second goal?
The whole talk about protecting him and not shattering his confidence is unfounded by the facts on ground
You quoted 3 players in there and I will try to explain why each of the three players are actually playing and why Gomes isn't.
Greenwood : 18 year old has 10 Goals and 1 Assist for the first team. Need I say more?
Brandon Williams : Mostly played because we were awfully short on Fullback position and has done incredibly well. Well more than Gomes ever did in First team appearences that he had. Won few Man of the match award here also if I am not wrong and was even nominated for player of the month.
Chong : He is a strange one as it seems like people have made up their mind against him. For starters, in PL2 he has 5 goals and 4 assists in 5 matches. This shows that he has played sporadically and has performed every match he played for reserves. Blows your argument of taking a player away and hence can't perform at reserves level. And he was player of the month for December in PL2. His performance deserves him a spot in the first team.
As far as Gomes is concerned, he has also 3 goals for reserves if I am not wrong. It's quite clear though in his position of Central Midfield, his physical frame just can't handle PL demands. To play him and shatter his confidence would be quite stupid way of managing an incredibly talented youngster. I used Norwich game as an example to show that he is still not quite ready.
Lingard offers nothing. Ok he offers something, and that's on the negative scale. Continually breaking down attacks with a horrible first touch, over hitting a pass or touch, etc. His performance has been the worst among senior players. And he has played far more than his contribution warrants, and that's in one of the most important positions in the team. He is one of the reasons our attack continues to get disconnected from the midfield. I've no idea which Lingard you have been watching. I'll be pointing out a few solid facts why a smallish Gomes, being played out of position most of the time, is still better than Lingard. I am not saying he should be a first eleven but rather that he should have gotten, as a matter of fairness and forward looking, a significant portion of the minutes Ole has wasted on Lingard.
Ok, since you've forgotten, let me help you.
Gomes in no 10 or AM
Leeds vs United, preseason: I know it's preseason but he didn't look physcially overwhelmed playing against a team who sits on top of the championship - the last time I checked. As a matter of fact, he was trying to bully bigger players. He looked sharp, moved the ball around well, and showed some high quality first touches in tight and pressured space, something a modern AM or any other midfielder needs. Lingard is not on the same level, by any stretch. I'll point out a few specific examples. He got the ball near the left flank of the midfield, with a Leeds player immediately bearing down on him. Just one immaculate touch, followed by a good turn, he passed the ball to Chong to his left. My initial reaction, a fluke. But then I watched the replay in slow motion and realised it was a well thought-out and executed plan. The Leeds player was left more or less stranded. Lingard wouldn't be able to pull that off. Only Pogba and Martial are actually capable of doing that in the senior team. The same game, he had the ball in the box, and his pathway to goal was immediately crowded out. He took a split second touch, noticed Young overlapping, and used his short-range movement to hold of Leeds defenders, or rather confuse them. Until Young ran into space, and he layed a perfect pass in that tight situation. It was up to Young to make the best out of that situation, Gomes did his and perfectly well. You'd be hard pressed to find anywhere Lingard has done anything remotely close in the past year or so. There are a couple of other situations, but these two stand out for their quality, his awareness of his environment and his high quality pass even when under pressure. Mind you, he played for 45 minutes
Spurs vs United, preseason: That was when Ole began his brainless management of the kid. Rewarded him for playing well against Leeds in the AM position by shifting his to the left wing. But at least one can argue it wasn't against a tight sitting defence, unlike the other games in the season proper when he was left to rot out on the flank. In any case, he combined with Mata beautifully, and scored a brilliant goal. But what was even more impressive to me was what happened later. He had drifted to the middle, like a number 10 and the ball was hit towards him. Not so hard, but hard enough to require a quality control in order to retain position. To make it worse, it came to his left foot, and he was mostly backing the opponent's goal. His control with his weaker foot was good, even not very good. Something Lingard had repeatedly failed to do in similar situations. But it wasn't just his first touch with his left foot, he knew what he was to do. Controlled the ball and away from his marker to get space, he made another control - or even two - with his right foot, while turning into position and releasing the ball to Rashford. The latter was equally brilliant to latch on and score, but he was a fraction offside. That would have been another good goal, made by Gomes and well executed by Rashford. If I were a Manger, I would be looking out for such signs in a player. Not running around like a headless chicken, hidding from passes, and constantly breaking down attacking play. All the hallmark of Lingard's play this season.
Rotternham vs United U-23, EPL cup: Gomes' performance is the best anyone, whether in the youth or senior team, has managed from that position this season. A proper 9/10 performance. Did you miss it? Did you not see he was toying with big men, and didn't look fazed by the size difference. After this game, and couple with his preseason performance even with limited opportunities, every objective analyst would expect him to start getting serious attention in the senior team. But no. You are talking of not shattering his confidence. How do you think Ole did not do exactly that by making him not even sit on the bench while Lingard , and to some extent Perreira and Mata, continued to give woeful performances in that position? This game was early in the season, Gomes showed he was in a fine form, and well motivated. He got pulled from the U-23 and was made to be a bat. Neither there nor in the first team. Yes he's had knocks but Ole and co try to exaggerate, and used them as excuses. To their shame Gomes emerged twice to play for England, just after his injury was touted. In one of those games he still managed to toil with much bigger players.
That was when he began to go down. You can't keep your tools rusty and then blame them for non-performance.
United vs Astana, Europa cup: He was the best attacking player that day. Rashford in his front was having a nightmare, or a continuation of it. Chong to his left was lost, incredibly lost. Greenwood to the right was poor. Matic and Fred behind him preferred to pass sideways, backwards, and to each other. He was about the only one trying to pull the strings. And well did he do, even when the oldies behind him continually failed to pick him up when he moved into good positions. I'll mention one particular instance in that game, apart from his good first touch and close control in tight and pressured places, which won us 3 free kicks in advanced positions. It's more of a two-in-one. The ball was floated to him, and again unfortunately to his left foot. And he made this immaculate touch to simultaneously bring it under control and pass to Rashford to his left, or right depending on your reference point. This time around Rashford made a mess of it, but luckily the ball rebounded and fell on the path of Gomes. His "body language" and turn took out Astana defenders, and he laid the ball to our overlapping left back. That should have led to a goal, and that would have been down to Gomes' brilliance.
Sometimes we listen to club legends, but sometimes we know they can also be emotional like any other true fans. And by so not very objective. Examples include Giggs, Neville and Kean in their criticism of certain players while overlooking others and their mate Ole. Schmeichel doesn't talk much about United, at least not like Neville and co. He was full of praise for Gomes in that 65 minutes of play versus Astana at Old Trafford, and wondered if he was the key we needed for unlocking sit-tight defences. You may want to google his opinion, I've posted it here before and wouldn't want to appear to be spaming. He saw what many other fans saw, that Gomes was not only comfortable receiving the ball in pressured corners but could also control and dictate play. If the other attackers and players around him were not bad that day, it would have been a much better team performance.
This game came in the middle of September 2019. That was the last time he got a reasonable game time in a proper, fair and just position. It will be unjust to expect he should start tearing it up now after a long period of his position and game time being indeterminate.
Gomes left to rot out of position:
There was no reason for Ole to play him in that position, against sit-tight defences. In one of those games, I think against Astana, he was bad, very bad. But towards the end, when Luke Shaw did what he should have been doing, by moving up the pitch to support and provide and outlet for him, he began to show signs. Every one talked of the open goal which Chong missed, that would have given us a 2:0 advantage, and effectively taken the opponent out of the game. But many don't remember that without Gomes' quality of pass in the final third, the possibility that Luke Shaw had to cross the ball which Chong missed would never have arisen. With Lingard, based on the evidence of the past year, forget it.
Gomes back to his proper position
United vs Norwich: Very recent, and everyone who at least tries to be objective would tell you he offered more in 10 mins than Lingard has offered in many 45 minutes of play per game. The quality in that pass to Mata was top notch.
The reason I mentioned some specific instances was to buttress against any argument that Lingard is, might have been, looks like, etc, better than Gomes. His running and pressing - whatever the latter means - could have been reserved for the right games, and towards the end when legs are tired. Ole has no business shutting out Gomes to make us watch the often diabolical display from Lingard.
As I have done a couple of times, why don't we take up the challenge of compiling for each game Gomes, Lingard, Perreira and Mata have played in the AM position their contributions, both negative and positive. You would be shocked by the outcome
I wouldn't want to venture further into Greenwood vs Gomes or Chong vs Gomes, it's pointless and irrelevant. Except that those two have been played in positions (combined with situations) where they were destined to fail, and that Brandon have had at least two games in which he was not good. In fact he was quite poor in one.
It's a long post, so apologies for any irritating errors
So he just isn't playing any games at the moment is he? What is our plan here
That is complete rubbish, how would Chong who's agent has been actively speaking to other clubs get game time and Angel nothing if it were true?
Lad loves the club and no decision has been made regarding his contract, last renewal he was getting abuse off alleged "United fans' as it was well circulated he'd decided to join Barcelona, all which turned out to be a massive pile of turd.
At this point i'd rather watch Gomes play and make mistakes than Pereira doing his upper body dribbling - no idea what that shit was or Lingard's headless chicken running
Supposedly he wanted to leave on loan this window and that a premier league team was willing to take him on loan but the club blocked the move, makes little sense why they wont let him get senior football when rubbish like lingard, pereira and james constantly get game time over him.
i definitely cant see him staying at this point, this latest development has probably left him feeling like the club is holding him back from playing senior football.
i definitely cant see him staying at this point, this latest development has probably left him feeling like the club is holding him back from playing senior football.
What if the loan didn't work out and he didn't sign a new deal? People would've moaned either way, personally I don't think he's ready for first team football yet.
So he just isn't playing any games at the moment is he? What is our plan here
He isnt in our plans and we arent in his. Waiting to leave on a free.
I can only assume he's getting bounced around in training a bit and there are concerns about putting I'm full games.
What's that?
Didn't make it to the winter break camp.
United's travelling party
Goalkeepers: Nathan Bishop, Sergio Romero
Defenders: Aaron Wan-Bissaka, Diogo Dalot, Axel Tuanzebe, Eric Bailly, Timothy Fosu-Mensah, Harry Maguire, Phil Jones, Brandon Williams, Luke Shaw
Midfielders: Scott McTominay, Andreas Pereira, Jesse Lingard, James Garner, Fred
Forwards: Daniel James, Anthony Martial, Mason Greenwood, Tahith Chong
Even Chong gets to go. Angel must have burnt all his bridges by now.
United's travelling party
Goalkeepers: Nathan Bishop, Sergio Romero
Defenders: Aaron Wan-Bissaka, Diogo Dalot, Axel Tuanzebe, Eric Bailly, Timothy Fosu-Mensah, Harry Maguire, Phil Jones, Brandon Williams, Luke Shaw
Midfielders: Scott McTominay, Andreas Pereira, Jesse Lingard, James Garner, Fred
Forwards: Daniel James, Anthony Martial, Mason Greenwood, Tahith Chong
Even Chong gets to go. Angel must have burnt all his bridges by now.
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I think Gomes has gathered supporters like Mourinho, i.e. beyond reason.
Are you saying fans should just support Ole's choice of picking Lingard and Pereira despite them looking like Sunday League players week after week, and not giving more of a chance to Gomes?
How do you mean?
I have said repeatedly on this thread that Gomes will get time if and when Ole and the coaching staff feel that he is ready. It is the same for Garner as well. The contract issues are not the reason because Chong, who also has not signed a contract, has already featured a bit too.
I just mean that some people have some irrational belief that Gomes is being deliberately held back or that something "odd" is going on behind the scenes based on very little, if any, meaningful evidence. I don't consider a youth player not getting games as evidence of anything worrisome going on behind the scenes. That isn't to say it isn't happening, but just right now, it doesn't make a lot of sense to come to that conclusion. But a lot of people have done that already. Right now, the educated guess is that the coaching staff do not feel he is ready. In the same way that Garner has hardly featured - he isn't ready. But I don't see the same clamour for Garner.
Regarding the contract issues, I do understand the concern, I feel it myself as well. But Gomes needs to make a decision whether he trusts the staff for his development or whether he wants to leave. Either way, plenty of youth players come and go, and this situation is very different from Pogba where it was well known that Raiola influenced the player's decision.
Is this how Lukaku learned how to do stepovers?
Those guys are making their own way there.
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