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2019-20 Performances

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CM is where our weaknesses have been. We needed to buy a CM in this summer window. It is inexplicable why we didn’t, other than the Glazers are tightfisted. Since we didn’t, we only have the likes of Mata, Fred, Pereira and Lingard as CM and none of them are good enough.

Angel is the only player with potential to fill some of the gap. The only reason I can imagine he is not playing is because he hasn’t signed his contract or because Ole doesn’t actually trust youth. Either way he is our only hope so they need to sort themselves out or Man Utd will become even less worth following than it has already sadly become. The Glazers will see a further contraction of its valuation.
 
rotherham_red said:
The amount of crying from grown men over an 18 year old... Dearie me, if I didn't know any better I'd ask the police to check your hard drives.
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He is actually 19.

Regardless of age if we just look at talent he deserves to be playing. Based on his youth performances, his pre season performances (where he was better than players in the same position) and the same said players not performing at the start of the season.

If the elite clubs in the world: PSG, Barca, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Dortmund, Juventus, City or Liverpool could choose between signing Lingard, Mata or Gomes; I would bet money Gomes would be chosen more than Mata or Lingard. We will be finding this out the hard way, when one of these clubs signs Angel, if we don't start playing him.
 
I personally am not worried about him yet. If another month passes and he still doesn't play much, then yes, I'll start to really question Ole.
 
Ole deserves all the blame for not even putting him on bench. He would be a great option against tight discipline defence.
 
One of my favourite moments in recent years was Jqnuzaj's debut against Sunderland. Just thrown right in there away to them.

At this point I'd love for us to just throw Gomes in ASAP, and, like Januzaj, he may surprise a few! I think it's worth the risk. I'm tired of the same ol' same ol' stinking up the joint.
 
Playing him in place of lingard solves two perposes. We are playing a natural 10 and would instantly improve the quality of the set pieces. Why aren't we playing him again?
 
ash_86 said:
Playing him in place of lingard solves two perposes. We are playing a natural 10 and would instantly improve the quality of the set pieces. Why aren't we playing him again?
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Pashun and JLingz runs a lot.
 
Enigma_87 said:
TBH I expect him to try that in our next home game. An away game against motivated opposition could be tricky for a young lad.
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Agree. He should start making bench atleast next week and hopefully in after that. This always feels like once he's in and everyone see what he could do, he would retain his spot.
 
ash_86 said:
Agree. He should start making bench atleast next week and hopefully in after that. This always feels like once he's in and everyone see what he could do, he would retain his spot.
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That doesn't mean he should persist with Lingard though. 4-3-3 would be better and Fred/Matic might be useful for once with Pogba as our most advanced and creative mid.
 
LVGSdive said:
He is actually 19.

Regardless of age if we just look at talent he deserves to be playing. Based on his youth performances, his pre season performances (where he was better than players in the same position) and the same said players not performing at the start of the season.

If the elite clubs in the world: PSG, Barca, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Dortmund, Juventus, City or Liverpool could choose between signing Lingard, Mata or Gomes; I would bet money Gomes would be chosen more than Mata or Lingard. We will be finding this out the hard way, when one of these clubs signs Angel, if we don't start playing him.
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He’s actually 18. Turns 19 at the end of the month.
 
Some people want to make United a midtable team. There are already players like McT and James who wouldn't start for some midtable teams. And want to add to them Gomes. Desperate times may require desperate measures but chances are Gomes won't make any difference now. There isn't much room for experiments as any wrong step might cost a CL spot. Sancho is a generational talent, not every other kid is a Sancho.
 
A midfielder beside Pogba that can receive a ball in tight spaces and pass it forwards is all I want.

Gomes seems to fit the bill - simples.
 
Treble said:
Some people want to make United a midtable team. There are already players like McT and James who wouldn't start for some midtable teams. And want to add to them Gomes. Desperate times may require desperate measures but chances are Gomes won't make any difference now. There isn't much room for experiments as any wrong step might cost a CL spot. Sancho is a generational talent, not every other kid is a Sancho.
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The point is very simple. You may be right. But you know what, Mata and Lingard have definitely not made any difference. What exactly are we losing by not playing them and instead playing Gomes?
 
Kostov said:
Maybe he is trying to say that it's much easier to swallow than watching shit players like Lingard trying to play football and still fail pathetically?
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Maybe Ole and the coaching staff know better and are looking after the long term interests of our young players.
 
Red_toad said:
Maybe Ole and the coaching staff know better and are looking after the long term interests of our young players.
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Ole and his coaching staff do look out of their fecking depth when some of their decisions are put to scrutiny. You don't have to be sheep and follow you know.
 
Kostov said:
Ole and his coaching staff do look out of their fecking depth when some of their decisions are put to scrutiny. You don't have to be sheep and follow you know.
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I’m not following anyone, simply giving a different perspective. Would seem you’re more on board with the fans know better shitshow though.
 
mav_9me said:
The point is very simple. You may be right. But you know what, Mata and Lingard have definitely not made any difference. What exactly are we losing by not playing them and instead playing Gomes?
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The chances of him actually contributing to the attack are vastly higher if raw talent and ability is given precedence over running around and closing down.
 
Treble said:
Some people want to make United a midtable team. There are already players like McT and James who wouldn't start for some midtable teams. And want to add to them Gomes. Desperate times may require desperate measures but chances are Gomes won't make any difference now. There isn't much room for experiments as any wrong step might cost a CL spot. Sancho is a generational talent, not every other kid is a Sancho.
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Gomes was one of his generation's top talents along with Sancho and Foden. Gomes was our biggest English talent produced since Ravel (crazy that Greenwood immediately followed, but that's beside the point). You can't compare McTominay or James to Gomes in terms of talent.

And although I do agree that not every kid is Sancho, and it's unlikely he has a similar impact, you can't just use that as an excuse to not play him. Sancho had to prove he was that kind of talent and he wasn't able to prove it until he actually was given a chance by Dortmund. Pogba was very similar. Juve gave him a legit chance at age 19, and he managed to bench Marchisio.

We don't know how Gomes will react to first team football for United. People want Gomes to be given the chance to fail or succeed.

Plus, it's not like we can't use United examples. Rashford wasn't as big of a talent as Gomes was (though was certainly a big talent), and he hit the ground running at age 18. Januzaj did very well for an 18 year old at first team level. So why is it all of a sudden beyond Gomes' ability when there are examples of young players succeeding at United just in the past 5-6 years? We don't need Gomes to be an absolute star like Sancho was. We just need him to be better than Lingard or Pereira depending on the position he gets played in.

Think of these young talents as bullets in a chamber. You can't get a bullseye without firing. And the more chances/players you have, the more likely you are to succeed.
 
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Agree. A simple way to think about this is what will happen when (not if because it is inevitable) Pogba has to miss a game?

Who will provide the invention? Mata is too slow and all the rest are not PL creative quality.

We need Angel to be ready for when that happens and the only way to do that is to play him.

The Glazers are bleeding the club dry, have employed a manager who accepts that because he does not have power and by saying he will rely on youth but then is not playing the youth!
 
dabeast said:
Agree. A simple way to think about this is what will happen when (not if because it is inevitable) Pogba has to miss a game?

Who will provide the invention? Mata is too slow and all the rest are not PL creative quality.

We need Angel to be ready for when that happens and the only way to do that is to play him.

The Glazers are bleeding the club dry, have employed a manager who accepts that because he does not have power and by saying he will rely on youth but then is not playing the youth!
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I should seriously create a video of Gomes ability to do Pogba's signature over the top ball to put a man clear through on goal. He's the only player with that consistent ability since Pogba for our youth teams. If he can harness that at first team level, we'll go up a notch in terms of midfield creativity. Pogba and Gomes both being able to use that pass would be really dangerous.

As for playing against a packed defense, Gomes has the ability to play in tight spaces and get the wide men into good crossing positions.

ash_86 said:
Playing him in place of lingard solves two perposes. We are playing a natural 10 and would instantly improve the quality of the set pieces. Why aren't we playing him again?
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I'm actually not really a fan of Gomes' set piece ability in regards to getting assists. He can score and in that sense he's good at them, but he tends to float in his corners and free kicks. Think Pereira and Puigmal are our best bet in that department.
 
In Rainbows said:
Gomes was one of his generation's top talents along with Sancho and Foden. Gomes was our biggest English talent produced since Ravel (crazy that Greenwood immediately followed, but that's beside the point). You can't compare McTominay or James to Gomes in terms of talent.

And although I do agree that not every kid is Sancho, and it's unlikely he has a similar impact, you can't just use that as an excuse to not play him. Sancho had to prove he was that kind of talent and he wasn't able to prove it until he actually was given a chance by Dortmund. Pogba was very similar. Juve gave him a legit chance at age 19, and he managed to bench Marchisio.

We don't know how Gomes will react to first team football for United. People want Gomes to be given the chance to fail or succeed.

Plus, it's not like we can't use United examples. Rashford wasn't as big of a talent as Gomes was (though was certainly a big talent), and he hit the ground running at age 18. Januzaj did very well for an 18 year old at first team level. So why is it all of a sudden beyond Gomes' ability when there are examples of young players succeeding at United just in the past 5-6 years? We don't need Gomes to be an absolute star like Sancho was. We just need him to be better than Lingard or Pereira depending on the position he gets played in.

Think of these young talents as bullets in a chamber. You can't get a bullseye without firing. And the more chances/players you have, the more likely you are to succeed.
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My point wasn't that Gomes isn't a bright talent but that at this point of his development he is unlikely to out perform Lingard or Mata and make a difference. Ole sees him in training every day and doesn't think he is ready.
 
Treble said:
My point wasn't that Gomes isn't a bright talent but that at this point of his development he is unlikely to out perform Lingard or Mata and make a difference. Ole sees him in training every day and doesn't think he is ready.
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We don't know how he's coming to that opinion. For all we know he could be hesitant because of his age and inexperience. There is a pressure component. Playing with 1k fans vs 75k fans watching is a world of difference. That's an adjustment a player has to come to terms with. So it's entirely possible that Gomes is absolutely bossing training and yet Ole still doesn't want to play him. We can't assume it's because he's not doing better in training.

How does a manager know when a player is ready or not without playing them? All those times a young player doesn't take to first team football like a fish in water is also proving the manager got it wrong. It could also mean the player himself couldn't cope with first team football. Managers are human and that decision is a very gray area.

Plus, not every manager is as aggressive as one another. There are several factors at play and you're assuming it's due to Gomes, himself.
 
In Rainbows said:
We don't know how he's coming to that opinion. For all we know he could be hesitant because of his age and inexperience. There is a pressure component. Playing with 1k fans vs 75k fans watching is a world of difference. That's an adjustment a player has to come to terms with. So it's entirely possible that Gomes is absolutely bossing training and yet Ole still doesn't want to play him. We can't assume it's because he's not doing better in training.

How does a manager know when a player is ready or not without playing them? All those times a young player doesn't take to first team football like a fish in water is also proving the manager got it wrong. It could also mean the player himself couldn't cope with first team football. Managers are human and that decision is a very gray area.

Plus, not every manager is as aggressive as one another. There are several factors at play and you're assuming it's due to Gomes, himself.
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Well, it is not absolutely certain that he isn't ready, it's probable though. I think he isn't ready. Let's see how he fares when he gets his chance. At this point Gomes isn't even an U21 international. Does he start for England's U19 team? Wasn't he merely a squad player for the U17 when they won the WC?
 
Treble said:
Well, it is not absolutely certain that he isn't ready, it's probable though. I think he isn't ready. Let's see how he fares when he gets his chance. At this point Gomes isn't even an U21 international. Does he start for England's U19 team? Wasn't he merely a squad player for the U17 when they won the WC?
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Wasn't he merely a squad player? So you haven't a clue what you're talking about you mean.

Why come in as a know it all with definitive statements when you clearly know shit.
 
Treble said:
Well, it is not absolutely certain that he isn't ready, it's probable though. I think he isn't ready. Let's see how he fares when he gets his chance. At this point Gomes isn't even an U21 international. Does he start for England's U19 team? Wasn't he merely a squad player for the U17 when they won the WC?
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He was only a squad player for the u17s two tournaments because he was injured starting from the u17 Euros (summer), which then led to the u17 world cup (autumn), which he got injured shortly before. He wasn't as fit, which combined with playing in hot India, culminated in a subpar tournament for his standards. He still scored a nice fk, and created for others.

That's when Hudson Odoi won his spot over Gomes btw. Gomes was always a starter, throughout his time in the u15, u16, and u17s. He was the captain for that age group which is why even when he became a squad player in late 2017, he was always given the armband as soon as he came on (u17 world cup).

That year of the u17 world cup was the one down season of his career and it's no coincidence that he was mostly injured that season. He's always played above his age group which is why he bossed the u18s as a 16 year old.

Just go through the match log if you don't take my word for it.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/england-u17/spielplan/verein/23260/plus/0?saison_id=2015

Start of that 2000 generation u17 level is the trouncing of Belgium 6-0.
 
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In Rainbows said:
Gomes was one of his generation's top talents along with Sancho and Foden. Gomes was our biggest English talent produced since Ravel (crazy that Greenwood immediately followed, but that's beside the point). You can't compare McTominay or James to Gomes in terms of talent.

And although I do agree that not every kid is Sancho, and it's unlikely he has a similar impact, you can't just use that as an excuse to not play him. Sancho had to prove he was that kind of talent and he wasn't able to prove it until he actually was given a chance by Dortmund. Pogba was very similar. Juve gave him a legit chance at age 19, and he managed to bench Marchisio.

We don't know how Gomes will react to first team football for United. People want Gomes to be given the chance to fail or succeed.

Plus, it's not like we can't use United examples. Rashford wasn't as big of a talent as Gomes was (though was certainly a big talent), and he hit the ground running at age 18. Januzaj did very well for an 18 year old at first team level. So why is it all of a sudden beyond Gomes' ability when there are examples of young players succeeding at United just in the past 5-6 years? We don't need Gomes to be an absolute star like Sancho was. We just need him to be better than Lingard or Pereira depending on the position he gets played in.

Think of these young talents as bullets in a chamber. You can't get a bullseye without firing. And the more chances/players you have, the more likely you are to succeed.
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Good post. On top of this, Very good young player who may or may not step up > proven shit player who isn't contributing to the team.

Gomes is very talented player with very good ability on the ball, works hard off the ball. So you never know for sure what you get from these young players. Some of them just step up and plays as if they belong to this level from day 1, some of them struggle and fade away. At least it's better to take chances on these young players than older players who barely contributed anything for last 1 year and in some cases more than 1 year.

If we take chances on Sanchez, I can understand the thinking behind that. He was world class player and showed how good he was. Struggled for form last season so there is tiny bit of hope that he might be back to form and start contributing, but players like Lingard should be back up player at best.
 
limerickcitykid said:
Wasn't he merely a squad player? So you haven't a clue what you're talking about you mean.

Why come in as a know it all with definitive statements when you clearly know shit.
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It was a rhetorical question dude. No need to be aggressively stupid.
 
In Rainbows said:
He was only a squad player for the u17s two tournaments because he was injured starting from the u17 Euros (summer), which then led to the u17 world cup (autumn), which he got injured shortly before. He wasn't as fit, which combined with playing in hot India, culminated in a subpar tournament for his standards. He still scored a nice fk, and created for others.

That's when Hudson Odoi won his spot over Gomes btw. Gomes was always a starter, throughout his time in the u15, u16, and u17s. He was the captain for that age group which is why even when he became a squad player in late 2017, he was always given the armband as soon as he came on (u17 world cup).

That year of the u17 world cup was the one down season of his career and it's no coincidence that he was mostly injured that season. He's always played above his age group which is why he bossed the u18s as a 16 year old.

Just go through the match log if you don't take my word for it.
https://www.transfermarkt.com/england-u17/spielplan/verein/23260/plus/0?saison_id=2015

Start of that 2000 generation u17 level is the trouncing of Belgium 6-0.
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Thanks. He will get a chance, no doubt. First in the cups and then maybe in the league. Let's hope fans are patient enough with the youngsters, they'll be inconsistent.
 
In Rainbows said:
We don't know how he's coming to that opinion. For all we know he could be hesitant because of his age and inexperience. There is a pressure component. Playing with 1k fans vs 75k fans watching is a world of difference. That's an adjustment a player has to come to terms with. So it's entirely possible that Gomes is absolutely bossing training and yet Ole still doesn't want to play him. We can't assume it's because he's not doing better in training.

How does a manager know when a player is ready or not without playing them? All those times a young player doesn't take to first team football like a fish in water is also proving the manager got it wrong. It could also mean the player himself couldn't cope with first team football. Managers are human and that decision is a very gray area.

Plus, not every manager is as aggressive as one another. There are several factors at play and you're assuming it's due to Gomes, himself.
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It’s gas the way people can make themselves believe in whatever completely hypothetical scenario, no matter how unlikely, best fits their agenda in threads like this.
 
We all thought that the Palace game was the one to try some of the youngsters and that it would be a runaway 3 or 4 nil victory. How wrong we were.
I am all for bleeding the youngsters in, but from the bench when we are a few goals up, firstly. The team is unbalanced at present and there is room in areas for these young men to grasp hold of, when they get their chance. Gomes is one of many quality young players we have here.

We need to move Pogba further forward as the roaming number 10. He can score and open up defences better than anyone we have atm. Play McTominay with Matic/FRed in the 2 until we bring someone in.
 
Bestietom said:
We all thought that the Palace game was the one to try some of the youngsters and that it would be a runaway 3 or 4 nil victory. How wrong we were.
I am all for bleeding the youngsters in, but from the bench when we are a few goals up, firstly. The team is unbalanced at present and there is room in areas for these young men to grasp hold of, when they get their chance. Gomes is one of many quality young players we have here.

We need to move Pogba further forward as the roaming number 10. He can score and open up defences better than anyone we have atm. Play McTominay with Matic/FRed in the 2 until we bring someone in.
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How were we wrong? The notion that a youngster is inherently inferior player to an experienced one is incorrect. There's no guarantee that Lingard will out perform Gomes and hence we have bring the latter on , only when there's nothing to lose. It's all very subjective and depends on the two alternatives. The way our attack has performed over the years, I have little qualms about throwing in big talents into home games. That's how they'll improve and you never know, they may just show up some seniors. Surely, they're knocking on the door of the 1st team becuase they have lots of ability?
 
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