What? Of course it is.
Anelka at West Brom | Sleeve Touching/Homage/Hate Swipe Controversy
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
What? Of course it is.
I don't think it's as cut and dry as that given that it seems this Dieudonné fellow isn't known exclusively for his racist views. It'd be more like if Bruce Forsyth decided to join the BNP, and at the start of his rallies he would say "Nice to see you, to see you...(nice!)" before ploughing through a hate-filled speech. Then a player gets in trouble for using the catchphrase. What I'm trying to say is, I really want the above to happen.
No...let's not.
Antisemitism has historically been racist in nature. And by most understandings of the term today, it usually describes a form of racism. Of course it is sometimes used by some to describe anti-Israeli (or to a lesser extent anti-Judaic) sentiment, which is not necessarily racist, but this doesn't mean antisemitism has lost all of its racist meaning.
How would you describe the Nazis' racist persecution of the Jews, if not as antisemitism?
Ernst Zundel would deny that...along with the Holocaust.
Except it is in all but the narrowest most pedantic sense. You could argue that anti-zionism is different, but from everything I've read this Dieudonne character is just using the age old trick of masking antisemitism as anti-zionism.
He sounds like a hilarious comedian, btw. Eddie Izzard must be looking over his shoulder.
How is "antisemitism" not racism? The jews are a race of people, just like Muslims, Sikhs or Christians.
Whether he knew what he was doing or not, he needs to be banned for the sam length of time as Suarez if the FA are serious about stopping this sort of behavior. No place for it in football.
The fact, like most footballers, he's an overpaid and not overly useful member of society. If he's stupid enough to get involved in this (and I personally think he isnt as "stupid" as he's probably going to try and make out) then he should be prepared for the consequences.
If antisemitism weren't racist, anti Semites wouldn't discriminate against non practicing Jews, which isn't the case.
Seriously though, a legal precedent set by a racist KKK speech? Surely that might lead some to question the validity of its freedom of American speech laws?
He wasn't convicted in Canada though was he?
If "nice to see you, to see you nice." Was replaced by "I want to stick my hand up your Joe Cole to my elbow or a bit higher because you represent a certain element of society that I dont agree with," then you would be more accurate.....
Oh Issy. What have you done?
Surely it would. Their questions would be wrong though. The fact that it was racist KKK speech makes it stronger. Speech is protected even when it is horrible and distasteful. The government cannot be in the business of deciding which speech is acceptable.
He was, did a little time for publishing some nasty stuff about the holocaust.
Not random as it rhymes with hole. I could've user Carlton or Ashley too but chose Joe.
Indeed.
When Jews were being rounded up in Nazi occupied Europe, their religious leanings or cultural practices weren't important. What was important is that they were regarded as racially inferior. That's why the Nazi salute (or anything that tries to replicate it) is going to be regarded as racist, even if the user tries to describe it as an anti-Israeli/anti-Zionist gesture.
I mangled that sentence a bit. I agree that the government should not necessarily be a moral guardian, eg around what speech is acceptable but I don't agree that people should be given carte blanche to spout racist rhetoric. Squaring that circle is the tough bit I guess.
Racist.
Agreed. Unless you are saying them in a manner than constitutes provocation it seems bizarre.
Has no-one ever heard of stick and stones?
Wikipedia says it was overturned by the Supreme Court.
Well he ran for President in the 2002 & 2007 elections and a European Parliament seat in 2004 & 2009. Jean Marie Le Pen is godfather to his daughter and holocaust deniers worked on his campaigns. He's about as politically involved in right wing bigotry as you can get. It's also about the context. If Frankie Boyle wrote for the Daily Mail & was best mates with Nick Griffin, his "act" would be a lot nastier. This guy believes it, however amusingly he thinks he's presenting it.
And tbf, I'm not sure even Griffin would go as far as writing & directing a comedy film about the Holocaust.
Basically, do not support this man out of some misguided sense of free speech. He's a bell.
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I base my opinions on the whole Islamophobia nonsense...I don't see it as racist. Its not racist hence why the terms islamophobia and antisemitism exist?
I know there are late 19th and early 20th century counter arguments but the world has changed hugely since then.
I've got a black pal who's family are practising Jews. They were turned away by one of the local synagogues that was eventually closed...but to get to my point is that not what racism is in the 21st century? The cold heart view of what racism is now where different cultures and different countries have overlapped due to the mass immigration of the 20th and 21st century?
I know there are late 19th and early 20th century counter arguments but the world has changed hugely since then.
I've got a black pal who's family are practising Jews. They were turned away by one of the local synagogues that was eventually closed...but to get to my point is that not what racism is in the 21st century? The cold heart view of what racism is now where different cultures and different countries have overlapped due to the mass immigration of the 20th and 21st century?
For missing that penalty in moscow
I agree that Islamophobia is not a form of racism. But that's because the name and usage clearly imply that it refers to the opposition of the Islamic religion.
Antisemitism is different because historically the term has largely been used to describe the opposition/persecution of Jews on the grounds of race.
I recall he went into custody for a bit but perhaps that was during the original trial in the 80s, it took a few years for the Supreme Court to overturn the decision. Anyway, Canada tried like crazy to prosecute him for the entire decade. Rightfully so, imo.
I personally believe historical factors are becoming extinct. Perhaps I was too rash originally by denying race factors entirely...but Judaism and Jews are not the same as they were during their key moments in history.
You can't go around making Anti Semitic gestures and then claim free speech.
I think it would be clearer if people today used the term 'anti-Israeli' instead of 'antisemitism' to describe the opposition to Israel's practices. That way the term antisemitism could still exist without confusion to describe racism against the Jews, which is still a real thing.
On the matter at hand...from what I've read about this comedian and his usage of the gesture, it can probably be described as both antisemitic and anti-Israeli.
I think the quennelle did at one point mean something different (it's basically a fisting mime) and was probably originally a broader anti-establishment thing, but it's certainly become politicised around a specifically semitic bent, and it seems very unlikely Anelka didn't know this. In fact claiming it was for Dieudonne hurts his case, rather than excuses it.
Yeah there is the same sentiment here too, as the hate crime laws show. Disagree on prosecuting. Let bigotry and idiocy be exposed to logic and tolerance.
or fester. Probably fester actually.
Court is a nice way to do that, though. Gets more press. Zundel's appeal was successful likely because of the kangaroo nature of our Human Rights Tribunals.
It is by definition racism.
So it goes. Governments shouldn't be deciding what people are allowed to say and think.
Cameron's not putting Anelka is jail is he?
Why are people making such a big deal out of this?
If this is directed at me, no he's not. This discussion went off to a KKK guy.
It's not specifically, but I thought I'd broach it since these threads tend to go a bit weird after a while and everyone forgets that "freedom of speech" is merely the freedom to not be arrested for saying silly shit and doesn't apply to the things people can get away with at the workplace or on the football pitch etc.
Yeah, that's my position.