I think Mitten is pretty good and I wouldn't be critical of this. Sancho has publicly contradicted the manager and refuses to apologise. What Mitten said is obviously correct. It's not his fault a sizable portion of our squad is useless
Andy Mitten: The players aren't responding to the manager
- Thread starter Bastian
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Glad he's clarified his comments. EtH said that the way United are set up with individual battles and pressing etc. then if one or two players don't follow the rules the whole thing collapses. The first goal against Bayern for instance was obviously an Onana mistake but before that the closing down was pitiful. Equally there have been other goals where players have just failed to do the basics and we got punished.
Also very interesting that Cas came out for second half to sit on bench and support his team. Surprised more isn’t made of this.
He’s hooked for under performing , no tantrum , no twitter outburts, no poor me, just gets on with it and follows his team.
There are an awful lot of footballers who could learn from that sort of mentality.
We've plenty of them unfortunately. Casemiro has the mentality our whole club used to.
Tbh this isn't anything praiseworthy, it's the minimum you expect of any professional footballer. He didn't seem to crack a smile after the game either (can't make too much of that as the camera isn't on him all the time, just seemed glum whenever it was).
He should crack a smile after playing shit and being subbed off? You think this would go down well?
After we scored two goals in added time to win the game? Yeah! I'm not up for flaying him or anything because of it, it was just noticeable. I'm more interested in him starting to play better though so if he does that, all is good.
Our players are a bunch of knobs.
Journalists constantly twist the knife about any bad situation at United. No other club gets the same media attention. It’s about time it was stopped, just like Fergie use to do. Start banning them from press conferences.
Far too much was made of the comment anyway. It was in no way inflammatory.
Only if you wanted it to be.
Only if you wanted it to be.
For that goal, it can be interpreted as defensively well covered, and only the goalkeeping mistake changed the flowed of the game. Sane shooting angle was narrowed, he had no where else to continue his run, and if he passed, he would have created anything. We're doing well defensively before that goal. Bayern looked dull and toothless.
Some teams, some players are just too good to be fully neutralized, when your teams are full of makeshift. Even Man City would conceded chances to supposed weaker Bayern last season. Not a good example.
The goalkeeping error was catastrophic there's no denying that but Sane just got a very easy time of it getting the shot away even if it was a poor one. After the match i think EtH alluded to the fact he was disappointed with Eriksen for not closing Sane down more quickly (he didn't name names and you could interpret his comment as being negative against Rashford or Regulon but i really don't think it was them).
You know him personally?
You can collate the publicly known information to insinuate it's far less likely to be Bruno. Hes a model professional and generally runs until his legs fall off.
So you noticed that we have great injury crisis atm??
That was interesting. The elaboration and following chat actually makes me think he was saying there are players not willing to take on what they are asked to, rather than being incapable of doing so. He goes into a longwinded talk of what he meant without really saying anything concrete, saying both it is not mutiny while "most players" back the manager. They all discuss Sancho and the split in the camp, which further highlights the division and I'm frankly amazed that there are players siding with Sancho with that proven record of not being professional, that while he's likely earning more than them at United.
We can all see that the team has not been able, for likely a host of reasons, to carry out a tactical plan. From the outside most of that seems to be about mentality (belief, willingness to fight) but of course there are players whose tendencies will at times (or all times) overwrite the "specific instructions".
Anyhow, there were loads of people on here saying "this is nothing" and now it certainly seems as if it was something and he's having to backtrack and his backtracking is "most players" back the manager. Definite issues here.
‘Not responding to the manager’ definitely sounds more like ‘not really believing in the tactics’.
This is something that can happen when things don’t go well. The tactics could be solid but an injury crisis and some misfortune and all of a sudden doubts creep in. Subconsciously one or two players bend the rules or try too hard and then things break down.
Under Fergie we were amazing at keeping going. We would work the ball into dangerous areas right up to the last minute rather than trying Hail Marys. That was something that built up over years of Fergie’s management where the players had faith and trust that it worked.
Mitten is just a fan. I don’t know why people take him seriously.
Who was it during the Moyes era who was feeding him info? He was never off the air back then
Or the simple logical reason we mentioned before: either his instructions are unclear or crap or the players themselves aren't good enough. Not everything has to be turned into a conspiracy.
I think the issue is the tactics themselves rather than the players implementing them. This is going to be a long response looking at Ten Hag’s repeated tactical issues and how they are failing these players.
1. Build-
I keep saying this in other posts, but the 3-1-6 build-up defies logic. Other top clubs in the division (City, Arsenal, Spurs) build with a 3-2 shape, which creates the best angles to progress the ball through the middle.
During pre-season, we tried out a 3-2 build-up but with Lisandro pushing up into the 2. It has been abandoned since the season started.
By contrast, ourselves and Chelsea build with a 3-1. This makes it easy to close off the passing lanes to the single pivot or press them upon ball reception which makes us susceptible to turnovers in dangerous positions. This the forces to go wide, whereas ball progression is restricted to one side given the proximity to the touchline. Therefore, if the ball doesn’t go down the line (increased risk of losing possession), it alternatively goes inside, where the pivot is pressed in a congested zone. This is why we are seeing a lot more long-balls lately, which is ugly to watch and not the progressive posession football we expected from Ten Hag’s time at Ajax.
There needs to be a discussion about this 3-1 build-up and the issues it is causing. The goal conceded against Brentford stemmed from the 3-1 build-up. While Casshould have been better in preventing the turnover in a dangerous position, he got the ball while pressed from three different sides and his only option was a vertical pass. Similarly, while Onana’s pass was blamed for the penalty Casemiro conceded against Galatasaray, it was easy for Mertens to cut off the pass to United’s single pivot.
2. Pressing
A second issue is our press. We go man-to-man in the middle, which makes it easy for midfielders to vacate spaces and the opponent by-passes the press with ease. The man-to-man press was a key reason behind the 7-0 at Anfield. The first Gakpo goal is a great example of this. The winger (Antony) pushed up on the centre-back who split wide (Van Dijk). Dalot backed up the press by pushing up on Robertson. Then it was easy for Liverpool to find Gakpo in acres of space with Fred forced to cover lots of ground.
3. Two 10s experime
A third issue was the two 10s experiment. In theory, it’s a good idea because you would have an overload on the opposition’s defence. Bruno can also cross dangerously from the right half-space a la De Bruyne. But we do not keep the ball well enough to be able to work the ball from side-to-side and sustain the pressure. On transitions, it also leaves Casimero exposed. In the Wolves game we had Matheus Cunha looking like prime R9!
It is also telling how we have been so exposed to cut-backs given how isolated the sole pivot is and the fact that the midfielders ahead of him are running backwards by the time they come in. Off the top of my head - we conceded various chances from cutbacks with Wolves and Forrest, conceded from 1 vs Spurs (Sarr), 1 vs Arsenal (Odegaard), 3 vs Brighton, 2 vs Bayern (Sane’s one was more of lay-off to be fair but the passing lane into Kane was not blocked), 1 vs Galatasaray (Aktecoglu). To keep conceding the same type of goal over and over again reflects a clear tactical issue and a weakness that is not being fixed and I am not entirely sure that the manager can be blameless in this. Fred’s mobility would have been useful for defending cutbacks but the manager got rid of him. Casemiro, one of the world’s best holding midfielders, is looking like a shadow of himself because he is not being protected in the build-up phase nor in defensive transitions.
I also think that the fact that Ten Hag hasn’t been consistent with the two 10s experiment has cast doubt into player’s minds whether this manager knows what he is doing. There has been no consistency in his Eriksen was brought in to sit next to Casemiro after Mount’s injury, before his mobility issues left us even more exposed on defensive transitions. Then we tried a diamond vs Brighton that failed miserably and we didn’t return to it. Then, upon Mount’s return, we went back to the two 10s vs Galatasaray. It didn’t work because Bruno outwide can’t dribble to beat his man, so there was an inability to drag the opponent’s defence out of shape to create space in the half-space a la City and Arsenal. Then he hooked Hannibal and went back to Eriksen in the pivot as he does not have the legs to be a wide 10 in Ten Hag’s system.
4. Final thoughts
It is telling that the best that United have looked this season are two moments of games in particular. Firstly, the first twenty or so minutes at Old Trafford when the opponent has not settled. Secondly, when tactics are thrown out of the window and we resort to hoofing and throwing the kitchen sink in order to try to recover from being a goal down. We saw this against Forrest and Brentford, and even against Palace and Brighton. These instances show to me that the players have not downed tools, and they still have the professional pride to keep seeking victory, and that they are in fact being failed by the manager’s inconsistent tactics.
For now, I am waiting to see how it will work with Shaw back in the side. The way we ended vs. Brentford is unsustainable. Perhaps Casemiro will be dropped and we will go back to basics with an Amrabat-Eriksen pivot. Ten Hag certainly has a selection headache on his hands. McTominay’s heroics may have earned him an opportunity to start but this may involve having to drop one of his big money signings in Mount, Antony or Hojlund. Antony’s return will, thankfully, end the wide Bruno experiment but this could result in the continuation of the two 10s experiment which is likely to expose Amrabat or whoever screens the defence as it has exposed Casemiro. We shall wait and see.
I think the second part of this claim influences your opinion on the first and in and of itself it actually has no bearing.
We know Bruno reacts when he doesn’t get his own way, we know he points the finger of blame elsewhere, we know he has a short fuse, we see he can be reckless, we see him react regularly in ways that are selfish and not in the teams best interest, we see his reaction to referees when he doesn’t get a free kick he didn’t deserve anyway, we see him feign injury, while the rest of the team try to cover for him.
we’ve seen him lie on the floor, chase referees, push linesmen, while not helping his teammates, try to kick an opponent miss and shrug his shoulders and give up while the opponent attacks the fullback, throw his arms up and berate teammates..All in the same game. A 7-0 defeat at Anfield. Absolutely the most unprofessional sets of behaviours I can recall by a United player in any single match.
Whatever he is, he isn’t a model professional or someone who undoubtedly wouldn’t be a problem for a manager.
I did like the ‘stand up guy’ line in the post I replied to initially. I find myself shouting that at Bruno 3/4 times a game at least. Just for very different reasons.
The moaning at the refs is influencing your opinion. I'm not denying he is without his moments but most players are. That doesn't mean they are problem players.
Hes known to be a model proffessional in training too, and there are various nuggets of information to support this. My favourite being him telling Fred and Dalot to stop their social media videos when they're in training, telling them they're here to play football.
Anyway, it's very likely Bruno is not one of the people not responding to Ten Hag. Hes the club captain and works relentlessly hard for us.
Players who aren’t professional in training are the exception rather than the rule.
I’d be surprised personally if it were Bruno, but I don’t claim to have a thorough knowledge of him personally. I’d be no more surprised though than any other player bar maybe two currently, and people were so right with their informed opinions on who and what the problems were previously. Social Media being a key factor in the assumptions funnily enough. Look how that’s panned out.
As for telling others how to behave, how often does Bruno need his teammates to tell him to stop moaning. Its not hard to consider he’s a similar personality in the changing room. Then throwing tantrums when he doesnt get his own way is always the next step before ignoring his duties for the next few minutes. With Bruno you can see his personality traits and states clearer than a lot of other players in fact and many of them can definitely be considered as negatives in most cases.
If he’s like he is on the pitch, behind the scenes, which is the evidence we actually have to base our opinion, then he will be a problem from time to time for the manager to deal with.
Excellent post. Cuts through and exposes our shite tactics. And this for me is the beginning and end of it. Shite owners or not, if you are tactically failing your squad (which ten Hag is doing) it really does not fecking matter what’s going on elsewhere. We’re not downing tools, there’s no toxic atmosphere. Everything is as it is because shite results are following shite tactics and this is the domino effect.
People make out like our players are complete morons incapable of following instructions but I don’t think they are. Lesser players elsewhere in the prem are able to follow instructions.
Our players are guilty of crumbling under pressure and making mistakes and that’s down to weak mentality but they’re smart and good enough to make a system work. Unfortunately they’re being fed rubbish by their coach.
The players secretly left group chat
How can 4 managers have their tactics wrong? The issue is not the tactics, it's the inability or lack of intelligence of our current players to adapt/adopt tactics. Forget the nuance, our players cannot do basics right, possession, movement, running etc. Most of the goals we are conceding is because of individual lapses/errors. We are not playing as a team, we are playing as a group of individuals. Any and all tactics can work only and only if the entire 11 play as instructed, if one of them don't then it causes an imbalance and we have at lease half the team that is not following instructions.
Our problem under van Gaal and Mourinho was not the players not understanding tactics. It was that the tactics were too negative. If anything our players followed van gaals tactics to a tee. The most organised and drilled we’ve looked since fergie has been under van Gaal and Mourinho. They just seemed to forget that to win matches you need to score goals and attack.
We also have completely different players now to that we had under van Gaal so unless you’re saying every player who joins United suddenly loses tactical sense then it’s a moot point really.
Ole was a mediocre coach. Ten Hag has ideas about tactics but has no idea how to implement them nor the knowledge of the type of players required to implement his specific tactic. Repeatedly signing physically weak players when you’re trying to play a high press, high turnover, man marking system is evidence of that..
I agree the players are making mistakes and that is what is ultimately costing us but that is a domino effect of the failing structure/system/tactics. This is why we start games relatively well and then collapse. Because once a team settles and starts playing their game our game suffers, we get opened up. The players then lose confidence in the system and start making unforced errors because they’re seeing their pressing/passing system get picked apart by the opposition. Dunno if you read the post I quoted but i couldn’t explain it any better than that.
If we make stupid managerial appointments of course they can have the wrong tactics. LVG was heading to retirement with a track record for falling out with players and dull football. Ole had the coaching skills of a 15 year old. Mou was found out with his horrible negative psychology and reliance on a physical approach that was outdated.
Yeah, I’m not trying to say it’s a conspiracy. It’s more about charisma and leadership perhaps. One of the things that you see with successful managers is the almost blind faith some players have in them.
Mourinho fostered that with his first Chelsea team where the likes to Terry and Lampard bought in 100%. Fergie did it all the time with his ‘us against the world’ thing that many ex-Utd players talk about along with the long tenured players acting as lieutenants.
With Utd today there is still some doubts that can fester. If that results in a split second delay in decision making then the chance is gone. The muscle memory isn’t there yet so the players are still thinking about their duties, positioning and decisions. It’s why our build up can be painfully slow at times but then occasionally you see a move put together and think ‘more of that, please’. How many times this season have we seen Rashford in a promising positon and either take too long to shoot or too long to cross? A confident player knows what to do and takes advantage of the defence being out of position.
Top quality post mate. So many good observations here. Deserves its own thread to dig deeper into the points raised.
Couple of points. I dont think there is an issue with 1v1 pressing. I saw Spurs were doing it effectively V Luton, all be it against a weak opposition.
Im not sure what our pressing scheme is meant to be because, bar Hojland, are forwards are not 1v1 or trying to close passing lanes. Hojland is pretty effective, you see him making curved runs to try and close down the lanes. Rashford doesn't seem to know where to go and i think he needs a midfielder to come up and take one of the two men he trying to cover.
Completely agree with this....
To me, this shows they are not lazy or downing tools. There is a massive desire to win. The players are having to resort to playing off the cuff because whatever instruction they are receiving is being thrown out of the window.
A third time we have looked good this season is against Galatasaray when they gave us half the pitch for Hojland and Rashford to run into.
There is rarely any set patterns of play. When you watch Arsenal and people say "why do the defense keep giving Saka the opportunity to come in and shoot". It's the interplay, passing and third man run that opens up that space time and again. It is scripted and drilled into them.
I agree. Whatever they are being instructed to do, is not working.
Said it many times. We look like one of the worst drilled teams in the league.
After a year and a half, no can describe what Ten Hag football is meant to be and point to it working on a consistent basis at MUFC. Like under Ole, we still look best on the counter.
I fear the logic of that argument, because of the conclusion it leads to: What are the constant factors through this long rot?
Managers have changed, players and squads have changed, coaches and scouts have changed, even CEO and directors have changed, yet the symptoms are consistent.
The only factors that have remained through all the symptoms, are the fans, the owners and quite a few of the sports journos.
Sigh, here we go again. Half of the starting lineup right now is Ten Hag's team, plus Bruno and Rashford, who carried him to 3rd and a trophy last season.
The issue ( at least to me ) is that that when the manager asks players to do something more than what they are doing, it goes south. ETH is not asking anything that is outlandish from his players. He wants them to work hard, press as a unit be composed when it is needed. That is basic functions as a footballer. So along those lines there are two things in play
A- Players dont have the grasp of tactics
B- Players dont want to follow these tactics.
Edit - Both options are player issues and not necessarily ETH or coaching staff.
For those of you eagerly anticipating what Mitten actually meant with those comments, he got pulled up on it today and was asked to explain in more detail what he meant. 35th minute onwards:
Self proclaimed…I don't agree. I saw some stats showing that the players are actually running and winning possession a lot (among the best in the league). I think the players struggle when in possession to create and a lot of that is down to our tactics imo. ETH has said he wants us to be the best transition team in the world but most of our games we haven't been playing on the transition, we've been playing against teams who allow us to have possession and stay narrow and compact. We've been awful against them and haven't changed anything. Most teams seem to have figured out how to play against us tactically to get a result. I don't think it's due to the players downing tools like it was under other managers.
A good post on the tactial analysis, but the other side of the coin, it doesnt matter what tactics are used if the players dont run and are sloppy with even simple transitions.
There are still too many players here who dont seem to have the right mentality, consistency or even ability that have been here for a long time and several of them have had far too many excuses or support in my opinion.
I think the most prevalent comment so far is the two 10's. The signing of Mount at the time seemed a veyr strange one and it has only been a couple of games of course without the best options all around them, but really dont see how Mount and Fernandes work as a pair in those positions. Ten Hag seemed very keen to get Mount in and it looks like it could be a big error.
The simple truth is there is very little we seem to have done well as a club for a while.
The positive for me is we do seem to have a good 3/4 genuinely talented youngsters at the moment which is a high number at one time for any club. If a couple of those can break through over the season that is the one thing that bodes well for me.
But the whol;e thread....it hardly even needs Mitten to say it, it is blindingly obvious jsut watching us to see the players are not responding to the manager, certainly not in terms of conecntration for a full 90mins and several have done so with othe rmanagers too
I do think we struggle to break teams down and do not defend well as a team much due to injuries.
Rashford been bad and we have no other wingers really that are good enough.
Casemiro may be too old soon. I guess Real Madrid knew what they were doing, but he can do better and I hope he will.
Bruno need to be coached better to know when to make the killer pass and when to play it simple.
If we had a 100 million player that performed like one rather than Antony and Sancho we would probably won 1-2 more games and beaten Gala and things would look much more positive.
Rashford been bad and we have no other wingers really that are good enough.
Casemiro may be too old soon. I guess Real Madrid knew what they were doing, but he can do better and I hope he will.
Bruno need to be coached better to know when to make the killer pass and when to play it simple.
If we had a 100 million player that performed like one rather than Antony and Sancho we would probably won 1-2 more games and beaten Gala and things would look much more positive.
Great post with objective analysis, if I could like I would.