Ander Herrera to PSG? | Gone.

[ivaldo]

Your observations are not evidence. It's the way you see things and create an opinion based of off it. I'm not dismissing what is not quantifiable. It's just a matter of differing opinions. I just see it differently. Again, your evidence of tackling and interceptions doesn't show that. That's not evidence and I'm not gonna explain again why. You seem to be frustrated with me questioning you, so just agree to disagree if you in fact don't agree.

I am past trying to explain my points to you. Because I already have. At this point, I keep trying to point out what I think is wrong with your observations. Because you keep adding to it, as it seems just to reinforce your opinion. The difference between you and me, is that I'm not stating my opinion as fact and I understand that you don't see things the same way. While you seem to believe yours is absolute fact.

Of course positioning is important for any football player but you're just making it out to be rocket science in Herreras case, without any evidence. Your points on marking are obvious common knowledge, yet again, you are making it seem much more conplicated than it is. Any decent defender can mark an attacker, it doesn't require great positioning.

Of course it is. It’s a forum. You understand how these things work yes? It goes without saying that you don’t need to put ‘IMO’ or ‘I think’ at the beginning of every sentence.

No, you aren’t explaining your points. As I’ve stated, and I can now see it has been stated by several other posters conversing with you, that all you’re doing is telling everyone else you don’t agree with them, without validating your own opinion. You aren’t providing stats or observations, you aren’t providing anything, you’re simply stating what you think is right and wrong. I can see with your total disregard to my point about your previous post containing no supporting evidence and observations that you’re struggling to disagree with It. You can’t ‘give up’ on something that you haven’t started, mate.

Seeing as you don’t want to include stats or observations, both of how a role works and how Herrera plays that role, as ‘evidence,’ then you might want to tell me, in detail, what you seem to think people should be providing with you with.

Great news. Tell the world, any decent defender can just man mark a star player out of the game. It’s why we see it weekly in the PL. it ain’t rocket science, right?

 

[golden_blunder]

Freee Andera Herreraaa!!! Free, freee, freee, Andera Herreraaa.

Maybe we could organize a bucket for donations, and maybe some reds are driving instructors and could provide FoC lessons?

 

[ice-bionic red]

Not too bothered. Good squad player to have but replaceble.

Really loves the club doesn’t he...

 

[settembrini]

I don't see what'a the point of arguing when you completely disregard what is actually happening in games and solely rely on stats. If someone is always passing sideways and has 100% pass completion, does that make them good passers?

I'm comparing Matic to Pogba here. Pogba loses it a lot more than Matic because he tries to shield the ball and dribble, while Matic mostly tries to shield it in order to wait for players to get up the field, like any strong player with those qualities would. That's a huge reason why Herrera can't play as a holding mid. Herrera passing the way he does is not a negative most of the time, but he can't hold the ball under pressure. When you play as a holding mid, you can't just pass to the nearest player as soon as you're under pressure.

Clearly you haven't because you keep mentioning the poty as something significant in his favour. If he was poty, he wouldn't be out of the team as soon as a player like Matic arived.

Stats ARE what happens in games. The reason I use them is because supporting your arguments with evidence is good practice in debate and the reason you dislike them so much because they continually show that you don't know what you are talking about. That was the case for your claim that Herrera doesn't shield the ball well when I showed he is dispossessed at a far lower rate than Matic and it's the case again here with you trying to pretend he just makes sideways passes.

Herrera passing direction this season (all figures rounded to nearest whole number hence why it sums to 101):
Forwards: 33%
Sideways: 29%
Backwards: 39%

Matic passing direction this season:
Forwards: 20%
Sideways: 36%
Backwards: 44%

As you can see (and if you watched our games you would know this). Herrera is far more likely to play a forward pass than Matic and is less likely to play it sideways or backwards. So not only is Matic's very slow and cumbersome style causing him to frequently get dispossessed in dangerous positions, almost half the time he eventually manages to release the ball it goes backwards. This is yet another instance of you making a claim for Herrera being weak in some way when compared to Matic when the facts show the exact opposite and I wonder how many times you will do this.

Re: POTY. I don't even understand your last point. Mourinho made a lot of mistakes as United manager and signing Matic when Herrera had won our POTY as a DM was just one of them. The fact that we had a successful season with Herrera as our DM and have been so unsuccessful with Matic in the team that Mourinho has now been sacked is an argument against your own position so why you think constantly bring it up is bizarre to say the least.

 

[Janson]

Of course it is. It’s a forum. You understand how these things work yes? It goes without saying that you don’t need to put ‘IMO’ or ‘I think’ at the beginning of every sentence.

No, you aren’t explaining your points. As I’ve stated, and I can now see it has been stated by several other posters conversing with you, that all you’re doing is telling everyone else you don’t agree with them, without validating your own opinion. You aren’t providing stats or observations, you aren’t providing anything, you’re simply stating what you think is right and wrong. I can see with your total disregard to my point about your previous post containing no supporting evidence and observations that you’re struggling to disagree with It. You can’t ‘give up’ on something that you haven’t started, mate.

Seeing as you don’t want to include stats or observations, both of how a role works and how Herrera plays that role, as ‘evidence,’ then you might want to tell me, in detail, what you seem to think people should be providing with you with.

Great news. Tell the world, any decent defender can just man mark a star player out of the game. It’s why we see it weekly in the PL. it ain’t rocket science, right?

What? Are you serious? Who are the several posters? You mean two of them in this thread who are in the minority in overrating Herrera? You included. That's your example?
One who is claiming Herrera is better at shielding the ball than Matic because he gets dispossessed less? That's laughable.

You don't need to provide me with anything. You have started of the conversation claiming Herrera is better at positioning than Matic. Matic who was once considered even the best DM in Europe by some. Then you go on explaining how pressing works in an attempt to credit Herrera's positioning.

I have provided my observations earlier in our conversation. It's pointless to keep repeating them. And I'm not using stats because they don't prove anything on positioning.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Stats ARE what happens in games. The reason I use them is because supporting your arguments with evidence is good practice in debate and the reason you dislike them so much because they continually show that you don't know what you are talking about. That was the case for your claim that Herrera doesn't shield the ball well when I showed he is dispossessed at a far lower rate than Matic and it's the case again here with you trying to pretend he just makes sideways passes.

Herrera passing direction this season (all figures rounded to nearest whole number hence why it sums to 101):
Forwards: 33%
Sideways: 29%
Backwards: 39%

Matic passing direction this season:
Forwards: 20%
Sideways: 36%
Backwards: 44%

As you can see (and if you watched our games you would know this). Herrera is far more likely to play a forward pass than Matic and is less likely to play it sideways or backwards. So not only is Matic's very slow and cumbersome style causing him to frequently get dispossessed in dangerous positions, almost half the time he eventually manages to release the ball it goes backwards. This is yet another instance of you making a claim for Herrera being weak in some way when compared to Matic when the facts show the exact opposite and I wonder how many times you will do this.

Re: POTY. I don't even understand your last point. Mourinho made a lot of mistakes as United manager and signing Matic when Herrera had won our POTY as a DM was just one of them. The fact that we had a successful season with Herrera as our DM and have been so unsuccessful with Matic in the team that Mourinho has now been sacked is an argument against your own position so why you think constantly bring it up is bizarre to say the least.

I feel sorry for Ander in a way. The first season he was scoring goals and assisting goals. Then LvG decided to change his role again. Then as you say he won POTY doing a good job as a DM then Jose brings in Matic. He should have just been left there and been strengthen elsewhere. He must wonder what role he is going to play from game to game and that is not good. You just never get settled properly.

 

[Janson]

Stats ARE what happens in games. The reason I use them is because supporting your arguments with evidence is good practice in debate and the reason you dislike them so much because they continually show that you don't know what you are talking about. That was the case for your claim that Herrera doesn't shield the ball well when I showed he is dispossessed at a far lower rate than Matic and it's the case again here with you trying to pretend he just makes sideways passes.

Herrera passing direction this season (all figures rounded to nearest whole number hence why it sums to 101):
Forwards: 33%
Sideways: 29%
Backwards: 39%

Matic passing direction this season:
Forwards: 20%
Sideways: 36%
Backwards: 44%

As you can see (and if you watched our games you would know this). Herrera is far more likely to play a forward pass than Matic and is less likely to play it sideways or backwards. So not only is Matic's very slow and cumbersome style causing him to frequently get dispossessed in dangerous positions, almost half the time he eventually manages to release the ball it goes backwards. This is yet another instance of you making a claim for Herrera being weak in some way when compared to Matic when the facts show the exact opposite and I wonder how many times you will do this.

Re: POTY. I don't even understand your last point. Mourinho made a lot of mistakes as United manager and signing Matic when Herrera had won our POTY as a DM was just one of them. The fact that we had a successful season with Herrera as our DM and have been so unsuccessful with Matic in the team that Mourinho has now been sacked is an argument against your own position so why you think constantly bring it up is bizarre to say the least.

I didn't say Herrera is always passing sideways. I said if someone is passing sideways, the stats make them look like better passers than they are. That was an example of how stats can be misinterpreted, not directed at Herrera. You have misread my post so pretty much your whole post is pointless.

I claimed that Herrera passes to the closest available man when under pressure, unlike Matic who is stronger and tries to shield the ball to wait until the recieving player is in better position.

What? We finished in the best position since SAF without Herrera and with Matic being motm in several matches in that season. Who fans vote as poty is pointless to me, look at how all over the place the fans opinions are on here. I think you're still confused about their positions. Herrera never played as a lone holding mid for us. I remember Carrick playing at the base for large parts of Mourinhos first season.

 

[Kaglish10]

Stats ARE what happens in games. The reason I use them is because supporting your arguments with evidence is good practice in debate and the reason you dislike them so much because they continually show that you don't know what you are talking about. That was the case for your claim that Herrera doesn't shield the ball well when I showed he is dispossessed at a far lower rate than Matic and it's the case again here with you trying to pretend he just makes sideways passes.

Herrera passing direction this season (all figures rounded to nearest whole number hence why it sums to 101):
Forwards: 33%
Sideways: 29%
Backwards: 39%

Matic passing direction this season:
Forwards: 20%
Sideways: 36%
Backwards: 44%

As you can see (and if you watched our games you would know this). Herrera is far more likely to play a forward pass than Matic and is less likely to play it sideways or backwards. So not only is Matic's very slow and cumbersome style causing him to frequently get dispossessed in dangerous positions, almost half the time he eventually manages to release the ball it goes backwards. This is yet another instance of you making a claim for Herrera being weak in some way when compared to Matic when the facts show the exact opposite and I wonder how many times you will do this.

Re: POTY. I don't even understand your last point. Mourinho made a lot of mistakes as United manager and signing Matic when Herrera had won our POTY as a DM was just one of them. The fact that we had a successful season with Herrera as our DM and have been so unsuccessful with Matic in the team that Mourinho has now been sacked is an argument against your own position so why you think constantly bring it up is bizarre to say the least.

Matic is a different kind of player from Herrera. Matic sits in front of the defence and build up our play from the back, switch play when necessary, provide options for the defence and his fellow midfielders, anticipate any pass from the the opposition and block off passing lanes, probe the midfield with vertical passes to release his fellow midfielders and he's constantly aware of the play around him. I would even say the team has looked at its best everytime Matic was on song than any other midfielder in the team because Matic has been our own "pseudo" playmaker in the mould of Carrick/Alonso eventhough he isn't as good as them but he's done a decent job in transitioning our defence into attack and provide the tempo, on which the team could build upon. It's no wonder that everytime Matic looked piss poor, the whole team has suffered from the effect. In fact, Pogba is often at his best whenever Matic is on song.

Herrera on the other hand moves about the pitch from box to box, snapping into tackles and intercepting opposition's passes. Positioning discipline and awareness are definitely not part of his job. His job is to quickly release passes to the more creative players or pass backward for a better transition after each tackles or interception. No different from what Kante, Ndidi, Gueye, Lemina does on daily basis however the latter players are more pacy, energetic and covers more ground than Herrera and Lemina specifically is more technical astute than Herrera. Hence, I would say Herrera could be replaced. He's definitely not irreplaceable.

 

[Janson]

Matic is a different kind of player from Herrera. Matic sits in front of the defence and build up our play from the back, switch play when necessary, provide options for the defence and his fellow midfielders, anticipate any pass from the the opposition and block off passing lanes, probe the midfield with vertical passes to release his fellow midfielders and he's constantly aware of the play around him. I would even say the team has looked at its best everytime Matic was on song than any other midfielder in the team because Matic has been our own "pseudo" playmaker in the mould of Carrick/Alonso eventhough he isn't as good as them but he's done a decent job in transitioning our defence into attack and provide the tempo, on which the team could build upon. It's no wonder that everytime Matic looked piss poor, the whole team has suffered from the effect. In fact, Pogba is often at his best whenever Matic is on song.

Herrera on the other hand moves about the pitch from box to box, snapping into tackles and intercepting opposition's passes. Positioning discipline and awareness are definitely not part of his job. His job is to quickly release passes to the more creative players or pass backward for a better transition after each tackles or interception. No different from what Kante, Ndidi, Gueye, Lemina does on daily basis however the latter players are more pacy, energetic and covers more ground than Herrera and Lemina specifically is more technical astute than Herrera. Hence, I would say Herrera could be replaced. He's definitely not irreplaceable.

Exactly. People don't seem to understand that they have completely different roles. So it's pointless to even compare some stats between them.

 

[sglowrider]

Maybe we could organize a bucket for donations, and maybe some reds are driving instructors and could provide FoC lessons?

We are all heart here. Fighting for the repressed and disenfranchised.

 

[Zlatattack]

Herrera passing direction this season (all figures rounded to nearest whole number hence why it sums to 101):
Forwards: 33%
Sideways: 29%
Backwards: 39%

Matic passing direction this season:
Forwards: 20%
Sideways: 36%
Backwards: 44%

These figures just tell the story of our midfield don't they. Where did you get these stats from? I'd love to see some comparative figures for PL midfielders who play as CDM or CM.

 

[Giggsyking]

I feel he is planing a move along his friend the Spanish snake goalkeeper to the same club.

 

[Ekeke]

Herrera isn't better than Kante. Kante is more pacy and energetic than Herrera. Kante can run all game without getting tired whereas Herrera would be gassing at 60mins in the game.

Nonsense. They both work their butts off for 90 mins

 

[arthurka]

I really don´t care anymore. He and DDG can both go, please take Pogba with you.

 

[Ekeke]

Stats ARE what happens in games. The reason I use them is because supporting your arguments with evidence is good practice in debate and the reason you dislike them so much because they continually show that you don't know what you are talking about. That was the case for your claim that Herrera doesn't shield the ball well when I showed he is dispossessed at a far lower rate than Matic and it's the case again here with you trying to pretend he just makes sideways passes.

Herrera passing direction this season (all figures rounded to nearest whole number hence why it sums to 101):
Forwards: 33%
Sideways: 29%
Backwards: 39%

Matic passing direction this season:
Forwards: 20%
Sideways: 36%
Backwards: 44%

As you can see (and if you watched our games you would know this). Herrera is far more likely to play a forward pass than Matic and is less likely to play it sideways or backwards. So not only is Matic's very slow and cumbersome style causing him to frequently get dispossessed in dangerous positions, almost half the time he eventually manages to release the ball it goes backwards. This is yet another instance of you making a claim for Herrera being weak in some way when compared to Matic when the facts show the exact opposite and I wonder how many times you will do this.

Re: POTY. I don't even understand your last point. Mourinho made a lot of mistakes as United manager and signing Matic when Herrera had won our POTY as a DM was just one of them. The fact that we had a successful season with Herrera as our DM and have been so unsuccessful with Matic in the team that Mourinho has now been sacked is an argument against your own position so why you think constantly bring it up is bizarre to say the least.

Good post

 

[Judas]

Hard to care about any of them when they continuously put in performances like last night.

 

[vanderpants]

Hard to care about any of them when they continuously put in performances like last night.

Hard to care about any professional footballer earning over 20k a week !

 

[settembrini]

I didn't say Herrera is always passing sideways. I said if someone is passing sideways, the stats make them look like better passers than they are. That was an example of how stats can be misinterpreted, not directed at Herrera. You have misread my post so pretty much your whole post is pointless.

I claimed that Herrera passes to the closest available man when under pressure, unlike Matic who is stronger and tries to shield the ball to wait until the recieving player is in better position.

What? We finished in the best position since SAF without Herrera and with Matic being motm in several matches in that season. Who fans vote as poty is pointless to me, look at how all over the place the fans opinions are on here. I think you're still confused about their positions. Herrera never played as a lone holding mid for us. I remember Carrick playing at the base for large parts of Mourinhos first season.

It blatantly was directed at Herrera seeing as that was the player we have been discussing and the entire context was a nonsense claim of yours that Herrera's passing was a liability for a DM. Let me refresh your memory:

That's a huge reason why Herrera can't play as a holding mid. Herrera passing the way he does is not a negative most of the time, but he can't hold the ball under pressure. When you play as a holding mid, you can't just pass to the nearest player as soon as you're under pressure.

The easiest passes to make are always going to be sideways and backwards, with back to the keeper being the easiest. If you were right that Matic is a good DM because he holds onto the ball and looks for good passing options while Herrera is a bad DM because he just plays the easiest pass as soon as possible then that would be reflected in the stats which would show Herrera playing more sideways and backwards passes while Matic plays more forwards passes. But it's literally the opposite. It's Matic who goes backwards more than Herrera, Matic who goes sideways more than Herrera and Matic who plays the ball forward in progressive football less than Herrera. By your own argument it's Matic who is the weaker DM in this regard and that ridiculous idea you have that he gets dispossessed more than Herrera because he is trying to help us in possession is a complete non-starter. His insistence on going backwards and sideways so much should mean he finds easy passes to our CBs and GK quickly, instead he dawdles and gets tackled in dangerous positions, which again you would know if you watched our games and didn't post on redcafe while we were playing.

That last paragraph... where do I begin? We finished in our best position since Ferguson without Herrera even though Herrera still played a lot that season? We might have had a better league finish but that had absolutely nothing to do with Matic. His inclusion in the team saw us have less possession, create fewer chances, forced De Gea to make more saves... we were a significantly worse team in many areas after signing him and the idea that he is responsible for De Gea have a brilliant season and our strikers converting a far higher proportion of their chances is laughable. Also do you see how I am using facts to support my argument? I know this upsets you but you should really try it. Literally everything you post just seems to be unsupported assertions that collapse under any checking.

 

[settembrini]

These figures just tell the story of our midfield don't they. Where did you get these stats from? I'd love to see some comparative figures for PL midfielders who play as CDM or CM.

They are from squawka.

 

[Janson]

It blatantly was directed at Herrera seeing as that was the player we have been discussing and the entire context was a nonsense claim of yours that Herrera's passing was a liability for a DM. Let me refresh your memory:



The easiest passes to make are always going to be sideways and backwards, with back to the keeper being the easiest. If you were right that Matic is a good DM because he holds onto the ball and looks for good passing options while Herrera is a bad DM because he just plays the easiest pass as soon as possible then that would be reflected in the stats which would show Herrera playing more sideways and backwards passes while Matic plays more forwards passes. But it's literally the opposite. It's Matic who goes backwards more than Herrera, Matic who goes sideways more than Herrera and Matic who plays the ball forward in progressive football less than Herrera. By your own argument it's Matic who is the weaker DM in this regard and that ridiculous idea you have that he gets dispossessed more than Herrera because he is trying to help us in possession is a complete non-starter. His insistence on going backwards and sideways so much should mean he finds easy passes to our CBs and GK quickly, instead he dawdles and gets tackled in dangerous positions, which again you would know if you watched our games and didn't post on redcafe while we were playing.

That last paragraph... where do I begin? We finished in our best position since Ferguson without Herrera even though Herrera still played a lot that season? We might have had a better league finish but that had absolutely nothing to do with Matic. His inclusion in the team saw us have less possession, create fewer chances, forced De Gea to make more saves... we were a significantly worse team in many areas after signing him and the idea that he is responsible for De Gea have a brilliant season and our strikers converting a far higher proportion of their chances is laughable. Also do you see how I am using facts to support my argument? I know this upsets you but you should really try it. Literally everything you post just seems to be unsupported assertions that collapse under any checking.

No it was not directed at Herrera, which makes your whole point irrelevant.
There's no point to this discussion if you still can't make a distinction between a holding mid and a pure ball winning midfielder who isn't even playing as a DM. Matic plays further back while Herrera is being used much more in attack than him. Of course he is gonna have more passes forward.

I posted while we were playing because I wasn't in a position to watch the game.

 

[Ekeke]

They are from squawka.

Did you calculate the % yourself based on the numbers or is there an option I'm missing somewhere on the site?

 

[Ecstatic]

Hard to care about any professional footballer earning over 20k a week !

Hard to care about any human being earning over 1k a week !

 

[Janson]

I'll adress the rest of your post here since i accidentally pressed post. @settembrini

Not without Herrera but with him playing a lot smaller role. So Ibrahimovic not playing had nothing to do with us creating less chances. It was all down to Matic? Are you seriously suggesting Herrera is responsible for us being more creative the season before? Again, Carrick had nothing to do with it? You are just bringing up things to support your opinion and ignoring the fact that Matic had several motm performances during our best spell that season. It was aknowledged by most that he was a big part in our midfield improvement.

Herrera has never been an integral part of a winning team while Matic has won the league twice while being one of the most important players. Yes Matic isn't the same player now but he is still more valuable to the team than Herrera ever will be.

You're using facts to suit your argument, that's apparent. Classic case of someone burrying their head in stats and ignoring context.

Please, can you find me one person other than a few of his fanboys who actually believe Herrera is better at shielding the ball than Matic? I don't think even Ivaldo would say that.

 

[Ekeke]

I'll adress the rest of your post here since i accidentally pressed post. @settembrini

Not without Herrera but with him playing a lot smaller role. So Ibrahimovic not playing had nothing to do with us creating less chances. It was all down to Matic? Are you seriously suggesting Herrera is responsible for us being more creative the season before? Again, Carrick had nothing to do with it? You are just bringing up things to support your opinion and ignoring the fact that Matic had several motm performances during our best spell that season. It was aknowledged by most that he was a big part in our midfield improvement.

Herrera has never been an integral part of a winning team while Matic has won the league twice while being one of the most important players. Yes Matic isn't the same player now but he is still more valuable to the team than Herrera ever will be.

You're using facts to suit your argument, that's apparent.

Please, can you find me one person other than a few of his fanboys who actually believe Herrera is better at shielding the ball than Matic? I don't think even Ivaldo would say that.

He isnt better at shielding the ball and doesn't need to be because Ander is better at knowing when to run with the ball or pass it.

As you can see Matic averaged 0.6 dribbles per game, Ander 0.5 dribbles per game. Close but Matic is just about ahead.

However Matic has the ball tackled from him 1.4 times per match and loses the ball with a loose touch 1 time per match, whereas Ander has the ball pinched off him 0.4 times per match and loses the ball with a poor touch 0.6 times per match.

So thats 2.4 times per match that Matic loses the ball trying to hold onto it and 1 time per match that Ander loses the ball trying to hold onto it.

 

[Janson]

He isnt better at shielding the ball and doesn't need to be because Ander is better at knowing when to run with the ball or pass it.

As you can see Matic averaged 0.6 dribbles per game, Ander 0.5 dribbles per game. Close but Matic is just about ahead.

However Matic has the ball tackled from him 1.4 times per match and loses the ball with a loose touch 1 time per match, whereas Ander has the ball pinched off him 0.4 times per match and loses the ball with a poor touch 0.6 times per match.

So thats 2.4 times per match that Matic loses the ball trying to hold onto it and 1 time per match that Ander loses the ball trying to hold onto it.

At least you are acknowledging he isn't better at shielding the ball. The point is that you have to be able to shield and be strong on the ball as a holding mid. Which is peobably the main reason why Herrera can't play there. He doesn't have the passing range for that position either.

You can't just run with the ball or pass right away when you are under pressure in a position Matic plays. If you pass right away, you will just give the ball right back.

Again different positions so you can't comapare stats outright without context.

 

[Ekeke]

At least you are acknowledging he isn't better at shielding the ball. The point is that you have to be able to shield and be strong on the ball as a holding mid. Which is peobably the main reason why Herrera can't play there. He doesn't have the passing range for that position either.

You can't just run with the ball or pass right away when you are under pressure in a position Matic plays. If you pass right away, you will just give the ball right back.

Again different positions so you can't comapare stats outright without context.

Yes you can and they have played the same position many times this season. Including our most recent run Ander's average position has been next to Matic

Just because Matic is too slow and ponderous to do it doesn't mean you can't simply pass and move around midfield and need to constantly hold off players.

Fernandinho doesnt do that

 

[ivaldo]

What? Are you serious? Who are the several posters? You mean two of them in this thread who are in the minority in overrating Herrera? You included. That's your example?
One who is claiming Herrera is better at shielding the ball than Matic because he gets dispossessed less? That's laughable.

You don't need to provide me with anything. You have started of the conversation claiming Herrera is better at positioning than Matic. Matic who was once considered even the best DM in Europe by some. Then you go on explaining how pressing works in an attempt to credit Herrera's positioning.

I have provided my observations earlier in our conversation. It's pointless to keep repeating them. And I'm not using stats because they don't prove anything on positioning.

When three people are having different conversations with you and all come to the same conclusion, you might want to consider you might be talking horseshit. I mean, you accused another poster of “using facts to suit their argument.” Outrageous!

Always good to use past tense to explain something in the present. “Used to” means he isn’t any more. I did, it’s unfortunate that I had to explain how pressing works, but seeing as you believe it to be just running about, it was necessary. You’ve shown such a complete and utter lack of understanding of how the defensive side of football, it’s no wonder you still defend Matic.

And lo, you STIlLL hasn’t provided any modicum of validation to the points you’ve tried to make. Yes, stats do provide an insight into something, not the whole of something, but it does contribute. Ekeke has also provided you with imagery of average positions on the pitch and you’d know the difference between Matic and Herrera is negligible. The fact you’re trying to refute that is laughable.

 

[Kaglish10]

It blatantly was directed at Herrera seeing as that was the player we have been discussing and the entire context was a nonsense claim of yours that Herrera's passing was a liability for a DM. Let me refresh your memory:



The easiest passes to make are always going to be sideways and backwards, with back to the keeper being the easiest. If you were right that Matic is a good DM because he holds onto the ball and looks for good passing options while Herrera is a bad DM because he just plays the easiest pass as soon as possible then that would be reflected in the stats which would show Herrera playing more sideways and backwards passes while Matic plays more forwards passes. But it's literally the opposite. It's Matic who goes backwards more than Herrera, Matic who goes sideways more than Herrera and Matic who plays the ball forward in progressive football less than Herrera. By your own argument it's Matic who is the weaker DM in this regard and that ridiculous idea you have that he gets dispossessed more than Herrera because he is trying to help us in possession is a complete non-starter. His insistence on going backwards and sideways so much should mean he finds easy passes to our CBs and GK quickly, instead he dawdles and gets tackled in dangerous positions, which again you would know if you watched our games and didn't post on redcafe while we were playing.

That last paragraph... where do I begin? We finished in our best position since Ferguson without Herrera even though Herrera still played a lot that season? We might have had a better league finish but that had absolutely nothing to do with Matic. His inclusion in the team saw us have less possession, create fewer chances, forced De Gea to make more saves... we were a significantly worse team in many areas after signing him and the idea that he is responsible for De Gea have a brilliant season and our strikers converting a far higher proportion of their chances is laughable. Also do you see how I am using facts to support my argument? I know this upsets you but you should really try it. Literally everything you post just seems to be unsupported assertions that collapse under any checking.

Matic always had more touches and passes than Herrera hence his backward pass percentage would tend to be higher and also the fact that he's always the deepest midfielder. Don't forget that.

I really don't know why you're bigging up Herrera more than what he is. Even majority of his forward passes are not as penetrative nor vertical as that of Matic's forward passes hence stats don't tell the full story. The consensus is the fact that Matic is better deployed as a lone CDM than Herrera who can't operate as a lone CDM. Herrera can only operate as a ball winner either in a 3-man midfield or in 2-man midfield which comprises another holding midfielder alongside him.

Some have made mention of the season when Mourinho deployed Herrera as a holding midfielder but he wasn't operating alone. Pogba was sitting right beside him in a 2-man midfied set up. I could recall Pogba coming deep to get the ball from the defence many times as well as Ibrahimovic dropping deep to link up play in the midfield before it eventually progressed to the final third. All what Herrera did then was to snap into tackles, intercept and disrupt the flow of the opposition and eventually pass to Pogba who would always have to come deep to get the ball from him. Pogba's work was made easier by the fact that we had Ibrahimovic always dropping deep to link up play with Pogba. It's no wonder why Mourinho wanted Pogba to be moved up the pitch after Ibrahimovic became injured and was replaced with a goal poaching Lukaku and if Pogba had to be moved up to reduce the loss of Ibrahimovic linkups, another player would have to be drafted in to replace Pogba's linkup play in the deep midfield which was why Matic was brought in. No doubt that Matic's defensive prowess, positioning discipline and awareness were bonus for Mourinho to have considered him for the job.

The problem now is Matic is declining already, he was already declining at Chelsea before he came here and rejuvenated himself for a season which was probably due to him building up some confidence resulting from the trust the coach had in him however, his legs are not what it used to be, that is, his spirit may be quite willing but his body is weak hence the reason why we should look for someone else. This doesn't mean Herrera is better than Matic at what he does. Their jobs are far apart except for tackles and interception.

 

[Zlatattack]

They are from squawka.

thanks Sqwuaka seems very cool. just had a quick look.

 

[RD94]

Truth is that in last two games we saw the actual quality of our team. Overrating here is unbearable, half of our squad should be gone and that is the ugly truth.We should start rebuilding our team from this year onwards, there is not one player bigger than the club,any club and that for sure isnt Herrera.

We never played good enough consistently to consider someone irreplaceable and we got rid or sold much better players than he is in the past.Bunch of mediocre players playing, in need of upgrading and Herrera being of them. Herrera, Matic, Young, Mata...they can all go free, they are for sure not our future.When you change so many managers and you still dont perform good enough consistently as we should what is there even left to discuss.

 

[Janson]

When three people are having different conversations with you and all come to the same conclusion, you might want to consider you might be talking horseshit. I mean, you accused another poster of “using facts to suit their argument.” Outrageous!

Always good to use past tense to explain something in the present. “Used to” means he isn’t any more. I did, it’s unfortunate that I had to explain how pressing works, but seeing as you believe it to be just running about, it was necessary. You’ve shown such a complete and utter lack of understanding of how the defensive side of football, it’s no wonder you still defend Matic.

And lo, you STIlLL hasn’t provided any modicum of validation to the points you’ve tried to make. Yes, stats do provide an insight into something, not the whole of something, but it does contribute. Ekeke has also provided you with imagery of average positions on the pitch and you’d know the difference between Matic and Herrera is negligible. The fact you’re trying to refute that is laughable.

Well yeah, three people who seem to overrate Herrera, what a surprise that they don't agree with me. I have plenty who are agreeing with me. Actually, at least three posters have agreed with my posts in this conversation with you. Take a look at what 90% of the posters in the thread think about Herrera. Most think he is a replacable squad player. While you are arguing he is pretty much irreplacable. Don't you think it's telling that you are in a small minority claiming this? Yeah if a stat is taken out of context, and used to reinforce what you already believe, then I would bring that up. It's a fact that Herrra is being dispossessed less than Pogba. That doesn't mean it's a positive for Herrera. It's a fact that DDG made more saves last season than previous. Does that mean that's the only reason why our league position was better? So yeah he's using only facts that suit his argument without considering the circumstances.

I don't know at what point I ticked you of so much, to start using personal insults. Was it the fact that I suggested none of us fans are expert analysts, so some of our observations are highly subjective when it comes to intangibles? I take it you consider yourself an expert? Since all your opinions are abolute facts.

Matic isn't as good now of course, but he still has the same brain, so his positioning can only get better not worse, if you disregard his physical decline. When have I claimed pressing is just running about? Please quote me, because I don't remember saying that.

All you've got is insults. Half of your posts consist of, you don't know this, you don't know anything etc. That doesn't help your case. Do you see me claiming you have no idea what you're talking about in every other paragraph? I understand why you think the way you do but I don't agree with it. At least act in a civil manner. Your posts are a typical case of confirmation bias. You kept reaching until you got to the point of explaining what pressing is to justify your opinion. Anyone can press when taught how to do it. How has Pep managed to do it everywhere he's been? Have we even ever been a good pressing side with Herrera in the team?

Herrera leaves huge gaps when he leaves his position to attack the ball. I see him do it at the wrong time regularly, which let's the opponent bypass the midfield more easilly. Which in turn requires him to chase back to make a tackle. Does that prevent him from making tackles and interceptions? No, because he is a ball winning midfielder whose main job it is to do that. That's not what you see. See the difference in how people see things? You see him having great awareness when he does that and I don't. I see him as a weak link that has severe limitations in attack.

I have seen those images, and I'm not arguing against the fact that they have been playing as a two in midfield at times. What I'm saying is that they still have different roles. That doesn't change what their responsibilities are. And the fact still remains that Herrera can't play as a lone holding mid because of his limitations. Again, you claim we should play him there instead of Matic, when none of our managers have used him there.

I hasn't provided a modicum? Using a big word in there doesn't make you sound more intelligent. Funny how people tend to do that when they're challenged.

I think it's more likely you're the one talking horseshit when you consider that the vast majority agrees Herrera is nothing more than a squad player and easilly replacable.

 

[ivaldo]

Well yeah, three people who seem to overrate Herrera, what a surprise that they don't agree with me. I have plenty who are agreeing with me. Actually, at least three posters have agreed with my posts in this conversation with you. Take a look at what 90% of the posters in the thread think about Herrera. Most think he is a replacable squad player. While you are arguing he is pretty much irreplacable. Don't you think it's telling that you are in a small minority claiming this? Yeah if a stat is taken out of context, and used to reinforce what you already believe, then I would bring that up. It's a fact that Herrra is being dispossessed less than Pogba. That doesn't mean it's a positive for Herrera. It's a fact that DDG made more saves last season than previous. Does that mean that's the only reason why our league position was better? So yeah he's using only facts that suit his argument without considering the circumstances.

I don't know at what point I ticked you of so much, to start using personal insults. Was it the fact that I suggested none of us fans are expert analysts, so some of our observations are highly subjective when it comes to intangibles? I take it you consider yourself an expert? Since all your opinions are abolute facts.

Matic isn't as good now of course, but he still has the same brain, so his positioning can only get better not worse, if you disregard his physical decline. When have I claimed pressing is just running about? Please quote me, because I don't remember saying that.

All you've got is insults. Half of your posts consist of, you don't know this, you don't know anything etc. That doesn't help your case. Do you see me claiming you have no idea what you're talking about in every other paragraph? I understand why you think the way you do but I don't agree with it. At least act in a civil manner. Your posts are a typical case of confirmation bias. You kept reaching until you got to the point of explaining what pressing is to justify your opinion. Anyone can press when taught how to do it. How has Pep managed to do it everywhere he's been? Have we even ever been a good pressing side with Herrera in the team?

Herrera leaves huge gaps when he leaves his position to attack the ball. I see him do it at the wrong time regularly, which let's the opponent bypass the midfield more easilly. Which in turn requires him to chase back to make a tackle. Does that prevent him from making tackles and interceptions? No, because he is a ball winning midfielder whose main job it is to do that. That's not what you see. See the difference in how people see things? You see him having great awareness when he does that and I don't. I see him as a weak link that has severe limitations in attack.

I have seen those images, and I'm not arguing against the fact that they have been playing as a two in midfield at times. What I'm saying is that they still have different roles. That doesn't change what their responsibilities are. And the fact still remains that Herrera can't play as a lone holding mid because of his limitations. Again, you claim we should play him there instead of Matic, when none of our managers have used him there.

I hasn't provided a modicum? Using a big word in there doesn't make you sound more intelligent. Funny how people tend to do that when they're challenged.

I think it's more likely you're the one talking horseshit when you consider that the vast majority agrees Herrera is nothing more than a squad player and easilly replacable.

Do you even bother reading what's put to you? I didn't say it was because we didn't agree with you, it's because you keep posting these behemoth posts with sod all content, relentlessly telling us how we are wrong and not providing anything to back it up. When genuine information is given to you you palm it off. So far you've pooh-poohed stats, observations and facts, yet you still ask for proof. Go figure.

Would be a great point if content wasn't given on each occasion. But that doesn't count though right...

You think modicum is a big word? The irony. You're the gift that keeps on giving aren't you?

I'm sure the bolded stung in your mind, but it makes absolutely no sense.

"If you disregard his physical decline." Why?

Here we go again. "Because of his limitations." Oh and look, we have absolutely no observations, analysis or stats to back it up. He spent an entire season protecting the back 4 in a midfield 2 with Pogba, and won player of the year doing it. Though I'm sure you'll try and claim otherwise, or just move it along.

I don't care whether you put it or not. You haven't a clue. You've demonstrated your lack of knowledge on the subject. Whether it be saying any half decent player can man mark a world class player out of the game, or your total ignorance in what having a low centre of gravity does for a player who is being tightly mark.

I didn't keep reaching, the conversation diversified to make a greater point, you showed no understanding of what pressing is, and so I've had to explain. Your counter point has, as usual, consisted of absolutely no weight, yet you stoically soldier on.

No, the vast majority doesn't agree with you. Exaggeration is akin to desperation in posts like these. Player performance threads swing wildly depending on recent events. Go back a month and this thread was almost universally praise.

 

[Janson]

Yes you can and they have played the same position many times this season. Including our most recent run Ander's average position has been next to Matic

Just because Matic is too slow and ponderous to do it doesn't mean you can't simply pass and move around midfield and need to constantly hold off players.

Fernandinho doesnt do that

That's not the same though, regardless. Herrera is tasked with a different job then Matic. Even when they are playing as a two next to each other, they're still doing what they're good at. There's a reason why he can't play as a lone base in front of the defence.

You don't constantly need to hold of players, but it gives you a big advantage if you can do that. Especially as a lone DM. It's valuable for any midfielder, Pogba does it all the time, which is key to keeping possession and not just gifting the ball back.

Fernandinho doesn't really need to because he can just give it to anybody and they will be able to do something with the ball.

 

[Ekeke]

That's not the same though, regardless. Herrera is tasked with a different job then Matic. Even when they are playing as a two next to each other, they're still doing what they're good at. There's a reason why he can't play as a lone base in front of the defence.

You don't constantly need to hold of players, but it gives you a big advantage if you can do that. Especially as a lone DM. It's valuable for any midfielder, Pogba does it all the time, which is key to keeping possession and not just gifting the ball back.

Fernandinho doesn't really need to because he can just give it to anybody and they will be able to do something with the ball.

Matic doesnt play alone in front of the defense either

 

[Alvaro Maestre]

Really loves the club doesn’t he...

So I guess that you wont ever ask for a raise at a company where you love working ah?

 

[Ekeke]

So I guess that you wont ever ask for a raise at a company where you love working ah?

Course not, he works for free

 

[Janson]

@ivaldo

No, the vast majority doesn't agree with you. Exaggeration is akin to desperation in posts like these. Player performance threads swing wildly depending on recent events. Go back a month and this thread was almost universally praise.

The bit in bold: So you are the only one that's immune to this phenomenon? Maybe the great Ivaldo should enlighten the sheep on here.

The reason why they have swung. Maybe the main reason why Herrera was so overrated was because he's supposedly United through and through and captain material apparently. Some bullshit that turned out to be eh? So now that it's come into question, naturally people will see him for what he is, a squad player. Herrera's abilty has been questioned through his whole time here, this is not new.

This is just from a couple of pages. Why don't you try to convince everyone how he's sure starter for a big team and so difficult to replace.

He's average. Let him go to PSG.

I really like Herrera, he’s one of those players that gives 100% and that hides his limitations. Make no mistake though, without that great mentality of his, he is a very average player who’s not particularly great at anything. For the guy playing as a no.8 in our team, we need someone to contribute more to attacks and score a few goals in the process. I’d define him as hardworking and tidy but really, if we’re gonna get back to the top, we need more than that.

It’ll be sad to see him go but he’s at the stage where he won’t want to sit on the bench and we’re at the stage where we should be looking on an improvement in his position. It’s time, probably, for him to go.

I'm glad we're being held to ransom by our players anymore. Herrera is the level of a squad player, we should have much,much better players in our midfield. Herrera has been with us 5 years, in those 5 years I cannot see where he's improved and I feel he's actually regressed, he's one of the main culprits in refusing to pass the ball forwards at times.

Hopefully we're in for Barella of Cagliari.

Players like Herrera tend to get overrated because of the passion they've shown for the club. In the 5 years or so he's been at United he's never fully established himself in the first XI. He's a decent midfielder that can occasionally put in good performances. For the right price he's worth keeping, but he's not worth anywhere close to what's being reported. If he goes to PSG then good for him, but Fred (recently) and Mctominay (more so than Fred) has shown they can be trusted and hopefully we add to that in the summer.

I feel like Ole wants to buy British players where possible. He knew a United team full of homegrown players.

Sancho, Wan-Bissaka, Rice

Apart from centrebacks and some right wingers, i see us linked with alot of young british talent.

Maybe the reluctance to give Herrera what he wants is because Ole and the team have plans for the midfield that will reduce Herrera to a backup option and the club are not willing to spend what Herrera wants on backup.

Matic, Rice and Pogba is a midfield 3 i can see happening. Matic and Rice as a double pivot. Personally, i would like someone like Barella, N'Dombele or Neves instead of Matic.

I believe the issue is that the coaching team don't see Herrera as a first 11 player next year and therefore will not offer what he is asking for.

Is it confirm he's really leaving?

Assuming yes.
Oh well, he's one of my most fav from the current squad, but I just don't see a big loss with him gone. Time for Fred, Pereira and McT to step-up. Ole should only use him in big games from now on till he's off. McTominic vs small teams perhaps. Let's see who's joining this summer.

Meh, never rated him anyway. Poor man's Henderson.

I agree we have to draw the line somewhere, I like Herrera but he's not worth 200k, better options are available so he's not irreplaceable.

If the reports are true (IF), and Herrera won’t stay for 170k p/w, then it’s time to cut our losses and move on. He’s been a decent player for us, with the odd magnificent performance; but we should be able to easily move on. Great character by all accounts, but that’s not really enough, is it?

I am not fussed if he leaves, his skillset is quite limited but we are so so shit in midfield he is our 2nd best midfielder. My only worry is finding an adequate replacement, Pereira/McTominay aren't the answer.

Also, for once I agree with boards decision. £140k a week is nothing to sniff at given his age. Not that it makes their decision to give Phil Jones £120k a week or Shaw £160k a week contract. They are two separate things but board is right on this one.

Think of PSG a minute, they missed out on De Jong and their response was Ander Herrera.

Could be worse.

He's a very limited player you'll find an upgrade.

If this is true well I don't see what we can do. He's not worth the money he reportedly wants. As soon as the club can, they will bin Sanchez. In the meantime, we need to stop with the high wages unless we're getting consistent great performances from those players.

I like him even if he's a bit of a politician when he talks about us - always saying what he knows the fans want to hear

I would prefer he stayed to give us much needed depth in midfield, but we should be looking to upgrade on him and Matic anyway. Matic especially!

 

[Janson]

Do you even bother reading what's put to you? I didn't say it was because we didn't agree with you, it's because you keep posting these behemoth posts with sod all content, relentlessly telling us how we are wrong and not providing anything to back it up. When genuine information is given to you you palm it off. So far you've pooh-poohed stats, observations and facts, yet you still ask for proof. Go figure.


Would be a great point if content wasn't given on each occasion. But that doesn't count though right...


You think modicum is a big word? The irony. You're the gift that keeps on giving aren't you?


I'm sure the bolded stung in your mind, but it makes absolutely no sense.


"If you disregard his physical decline." Why?


Here we go again. "Because of his limitations." Oh and look, we have absolutely no observations, analysis or stats to back it up. He spent an entire season protecting the back 4 in a midfield 2 with Pogba, and won player of the year doing it. Though I'm sure you'll try and claim otherwise, or just move it along.


I don't care whether you put it or not. You haven't a clue. You've demonstrated your lack of knowledge on the subject. Whether it be saying any half decent player can man mark a world class player out of the game, or your total ignorance in what having a low centre of gravity does for a player who is being tightly mark.


I didn't keep reaching, the conversation diversified to make a greater point, you showed no understanding of what pressing is, and so I've had to explain. Your counter point has, as usual, consisted of absolutely no weight, yet you stoically soldier on.


No, the vast majority doesn't agree with you. Exaggeration is akin to desperation in posts like these. Player performance threads swing wildly depending on recent events. Go back a month and this thread was almost universally praise.

I'm not asking for proof, and I'm fine with you having your opinion. I just disagree with it. You relentlessly keep spouting your "proof" to me and then get angry when it's questioned. I just said in my last post that I understand why you think differently. You're not providing anything other than your own opinion. And this is probably the fourth time I'm telling you that your stats don't mean anything. I also explained why.


His physical decline affects his movement for sure, but a holding midfielder uses his positional sense to make things work. His positional awareness doesn't change because he has declined physically.


When exactly did he spend an entire season protecting the defense in a 2? Carrick was playing at the base in the first year for a large portion and Matic did in Mourinhos second season.


I never even commented on your low centre of gravity bullshit, because it's irrelevant to what we're talking about. It's a physical aspect of the game, which has nothing to do with positioning. I also asked you to provide any content that showed any expert talking about how man marking requires great positional sense. You of course ignored that. I have asked you to quote me where I said pressing is just running around, but do I expect you to do that? Of course not.


How did I know that you would counter with, it's not a big word! Give me an example of someone using it on here. How often do you use it in everyday life? Only reason I mentioned it, is because I have seen people do that many times when they know they can't make a valid point, to try and come of as intelligent. I just find the psychology of it interesting. You can keep insulting me. It just shows some narcissistic tendencies. You get defensive and agressive if someone challenges your view. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just interesting to observe.


Actually, you don't have to reply. I think I will just ignore you. Never done it before so it takes a lot for me. But I'm not gonna stand for someone throwing out insults left and right. See ya.

 

[Janson]

Matic doesnt play alone in front of the defense either

As far as I can remember, he's always played as a lone holding mid when we play with a 3 man midfield. With Herrera to the right as more of a box to box. Maybe Ole has played them in a two recently but I don't remember that happening before. You're welcome to provide any info on that if you have it available.

 

[ivaldo]

@ivaldo


The bit in bold: So you are the only one that's immune to this phenomenon? Maybe the great Ivaldo should enlighten the sheep on here.

The reason why they have swung. Maybe the main reason why Herrera was so overrated was because he's supposedly United through and through and captain material apparently. Some bullshit that turned out to be eh? So now that it's come into question, naturally people will see him for what he is, a squad player. Herrera's abilty has been questioned through his whole time here, this is not new.

This is just from a couple of pages. Why don't you try to convince everyone how he's sure starter for a big team and so difficult to replace.

Are you a little bit simple or something? I didn't say no one agreed with you. You could do the same for those who think the complete opposite and it wouldn't prove a thing. This ridiculous notion that 90% of the fans, yes 90%, don't rate him is a conclusion almost as juvenile as spamming posts as some kind of irrevocable end to the discussion.

It's sweet that this is the one conclusion you've drawn from it. Here's another that might blow your mind. Maybe, just maybe, people have a tendency to post in player discussion threads when that player is performing in line with preconceived opinions? Have a look in the Pogba thread, for example, from beginning of Oles reign to now. You need this explained to you, really?

I'm not asking for proof, and I'm fine with you having your opinion. I just disagree with it. You relentlessly keep spouting your "proof" to me and then get angry when it's questioned. I just said in my last post that I understand why you think differently. You're not providing anything other than your own opinion. And this is probably the fourth time I'm telling you that your stats don't mean anything. I also explained why.


His physical decline affects his movement for sure, but a holding midfielder uses his positional sense to make things work. His positional awareness doesn't change because he has declined physically.


When exactly did he spend an entire season protecting the defense in a 2? Carrick was playing at the base in the first year for a large portion and Matic did in Mourinhos second season.


I never even commented on your low centre of gravity bullshit, because it's irrelevant to what we're talking about. It's a physical aspect of the game, which has nothing to do with positioning. I also asked you to provide any content that showed any expert talking about how man marking requires great positional sense. You of course ignored that. I have asked you to quote me where I said pressing is just running around, but do I expect you to do that? Of course not.

How did I know that you would counter with, it's not a big word! Give me an example of someone using it on here. How often do you use it in everyday life? Only reason I mentioned it, is because I have seen people do that many times when they know they can't make a valid point, to try and come of as intelligent. I just find the psychology of it interesting. You can keep insulting me. It just shows some narcissistic tendencies. You get defensive and agressive if someone challenges your view. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just interesting to observe.

Actually, you don't have to reply. I think I will just ignore you. Never done it before so it takes a lot for me. But I'm not gonna stand for someone throwing out insults left and right. See ya.

No. What you're doing is disregarding all the proof given you and then offering none of your own. You haven't explained why. You've pointed to context, while ignoring the context that was provided to you with the given stat. Then when you're called up on it you've kept to form and refused to actually qualify any of the drivel you've written.

You never commented on it...

Low centre of gravity? What are you on about, seriously...

Shocking that. Of course it does! When the player you're marking has the ability to change direction at the pace Hazard does, simply meandering after him, which you seem to think is all man marking is, it isn't going to cut it. Even you can't believe this bullshit.

Do you seriously think Matic would take up the same positions as he did a decade ago despite no longer having the pace or stamina once had, and it would make no difference? Of course it affects a players positioning.

It's called implication. It's not a big word, but I'm guessing you'll have to google it. Your complete and utter disregard for the nuances of it is evidence enough.

Do you not know how to use the search function? I searched "Modicum" and it came up with 9 results in March. There's 24 pages worth in total.