[#07]

 

[Striker10]

He's always wanted to put some tackles in, even at Bilbao, although he got booked a lot so I remember suggesting at the time it would be risky using him CM instead of the AM position he was playing there.

But at least since we signed Pogba, the only role that was going to be up for grabs for him was not as a mainly attacking player but by being a team player and taking care of the areas we lacked. Pogba can lack in work ethic and defensive responsibility - Ander does the shift of 2 players and is our best at reading danger going back towards his own goal. On the ball he's played within himself a bit sticking to high percentage passes with only the occasional quality throughball like hes capable of.

I think this is down to the LVG mentality where all our players just wanted to pass the ball sideways and keep it. That goes for Ander, Smalling, even Mata who was deployed as a CM and as soon as he was moved there he was no longer a very creative player and was just passing sideways to keep the ball. He's never gone back to being as creative after.

It's not so much the tackling aspect. For me that's what he was purely becoming. I think Under ole we'll see a much more rounded player

 

[Andycoleno9]

What are we waiting with his contract? Player like him would cost us 50 mil.

 

[Devil may care]

I know not everyone is a fan but looking at that 2nd string midfield 3 today surely everyone can see we need to get him signed up to a new contract.

 

[yfoFC]

I know not everyone is a fan but looking at that 2nd string midfield 3 today surely everyone can see we need to get him signed up to a new contract.

Now we know what he brings to our team

"absence makes the heart grow fonder.."

 

[Devil may care]

Now we know what he brings to our team

"absence makes the heart grow fonder.."

He's played well in Ole's 4 games, he's clearly miles above the other options we have, you pugrade them before him.

 

[U99ted]

What are we waiting with his contract? Player like him would cost us 50 mil.

More than that. Fred cost us 50 mil.

 

[Himannv]

Really need to sort out his contract and get him committed. He's a clear starter for us at the moment and clearly loves the club. Sign him up already!

 

[Loublaze]

Really need to sort out his contract and get him committed. He's a clear starter for us at the moment and clearly loves the club. Sign him up already!

This.

 

[Mickson]

He's painfully overrated here. But I know why. He looks good when he runs around; tackling, shouting. A classic Stevie Gerrard light in that aspect (and yes, I rated Stevie). He can't defend to save his life (which has been noted in this thread), his positional sense is one of the worst I've ever seen from a United midfielder. But hey, he's screaming at opponents so he must be God. With that said, he's not better or worse than anyone else. It's just not important that we give him a new contract, because we can and should aspire to be better. The hype around average players like Shaw and Herrera here just shows how far we have fallen.

 

[izec]

Terrible post

 

[Ace of Spades]

Terrible post

One of the worst, and I have read some absolute dross recently.

 

[Adam-Utd]

He's painfully overrated here. But I know why. He looks good when he runs around; tackling, shouting. A classic Stevie Gerrard light in that aspect (and yes, I rated Stevie). He can't defend to save his life (which has been noted in this thread), his positional sense is one of the worst I've ever seen from a United midfielder. But hey, he's screaming at opponents so he must be God. With that said, he's not better or worse than anyone else. It's just not important that we give him a new contract, because we can and should aspire to be better. The hype around average players like Shaw and Herrera here just shows how far we have fallen.

So why are his tackles / interceptions always the highest in the team? Not sure what you see tbh.

 

[Mickson]

So why are his tackles / interceptions always the highest in the team? Not sure what you see tbh.

Players who aren't in the right position need to tackle more? Not really sure what your point is.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Players who aren't in the right position need to tackle more? Not really sure what your point is.

What?

 

[izec]

Players who aren't in the right position need to tackle more? Not really sure what your point is.

I think you have a problem with cause and effect, it is the other way around

 

[Foxbatt]

Players who aren't in the right position need to tackle more? Not really sure what your point is.

If a player is dribbling past you then do you wave him on like a traffic policeman? Of course tackling is one of the most important aspects of the game. Without tackling there is no way you can get a ball of a player if the player has decent ball control.

 

[Mickson]

If a player is dribbling past you then do you wave him on like a traffic policeman? Of course tackling is one of the most important aspects of the game. Without tackling there is no way you can get a ball of a player if the player has decent ball control.

Obviously I agree with that, just don't think that his stats tell the whole story about that. Imo, his positional sense is way off and he's also weak in defence (at corners and people dribbling past him as well).

 

[Charlie Foley]

Players who aren't in the right position need to tackle more? Not really sure what your point is.

Isn’t that what Ferguson said about his favourite Nesta game, he didn’t make a single tackle against Barca. Also if I recall correctly he said years after he sold Stam he made the mistake of looking at his number of tackles, seeing that they were declining and thinking that meant Stam was declining.

Third we used to laugh at Liverpool fans on RAWK claiming Rio wasn’t that good as he had only so many tackles per game.

So I get your point. However it could depend on position (I’ve mentioned 3 centre backs after all) and the tactics implemented by the manager, or the specific role given to Herrera (pressing the ball rather than focusing on space and passing lanes, which would see more interception stats, or perhaps not if you’re really effective at that to the point that the pass is never attempted.)

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

It’s when Pogba, not Ander, is out of the team or out of form that we lose our midfield. This is why Fellaini of all people has swapped roles with Ander so often. Another body to win the ball back and play safe passes. No creative impetus.

Ander is not bad, but not some great player either. The hyperbole here is funny.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

I think a two year extension would be fair tbh. I think the high energy pressing game Ole's trying to play suits him well. If in the end he's not good enough to start he'll still be a useful squad player and we're already lacking depth in midfield so can't really afford to let anyone decent go atm.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

I think a two year extension would be fair tbh. I think the high energy pressing game Ole's trying to play suits him well. If in the end he's not good enough to start he'll still be a useful squad player and we're already lacking depth in midfield so can't really afford to let anyone decent go atm.

This is how I feel. Not in a position to let him go at the moment. Wonder if Bilbao will be his only legitimate suitors.

 

[arthurka]

He's painfully overrated here. But I know why. He looks good when he runs around; tackling, shouting. A classic Stevie Gerrard light in that aspect (and yes, I rated Stevie). He can't defend to save his life (which has been noted in this thread), his positional sense is one of the worst I've ever seen from a United midfielder. But hey, he's screaming at opponents so he must be God. With that said, he's not better or worse than anyone else. It's just not important that we give him a new contract, because we can and should aspire to be better. The hype around average players like Shaw and Herrera here just shows how far we have fallen.

WUM

 

[AltiUn]

It’s when Pogba, not Ander, is out of the team or out of form that we lose our midfield. This is why Fellaini of all people has swapped roles with Ander so often. Another body to win the ball back and play safe passes. No creative impetus.

Ander is not bad, but not some great player either. The hyperbole here is funny.

Fellaini and Herrera aren't even remotely comparable defensively or even as midfielders in general, we very lost our midfield shape when he didn't start against Huddersfield, it was clear as day. The truth is, Pogba and Herrera are both very important to Solskjaer's system, his high pressing, mobility, interceptions and ball winning are all extremely important to our system, Fellaini doesn't offer any of that.

 

[Mickson]

WUM

That's one argument when you don't have any arguments. Thank you.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

Fellaini and Herrera aren't even remotely comparable defensively or even as midfielders in general, we very lost our midfield shape when he didn't start against Huddersfield, it was clear as day. The truth is, Pogba and Herrera are both very important to Solskjaer's system, his high pressing, mobility, interceptions and ball winning are all extremely important to our system, Fellaini doesn't offer any of that.

We can talk about the comp, but to do that you'd have to acknowledge some of the things Fellaini is tasked with doing, and does very well at times in midfield. Things you've just denied. I can't stand Fellaini, nearly brought a tear to my eye when he signed, but he does quite clearly intercept and win the ball back in midfield. It's just that those are attributes that any average player with a high work rate or tree branches for limbs can accomplish.

 

[AltiUn]

We can talk about the comp, but to do that you'd have to acknowledge some of the things Fellaini is tasked with doing, and does very well at times in midfield. Things you've just denied. I can't stand Fellaini, nearly brought a tear to my eye when he signed, but he does quite clearly intercept and win the ball back in midfield. It's just that those are attributes that any average player with a high work rate or tree branches for limbs can accomplish.

Fellaini has an average of 0.3 interceptions a game, Herrera's is 2. Fellaini averages 1.5 tackles a game, Herrera's is 2.6. One is clearly better than the other at tackling and intercepting, Fellaini has his uses, just not as a DM.

 

[arthurka]

That's one argument when you don't have any arguments. Thank you.

Really... Your post is so wrong you must be a WUM.
His biggest strengths are defensive attributes and positioning. His pressing game is top notch. Almost everything you wrote about his game is wrong. So whats wrong with assuming you are a WUM?

 

[Mickson]

Really... Your post is so wrong you must be a WUM.
His biggest strengths are defensive attributes and positioning. His pressing game is top notch. Almost everything you wrote about his game is wrong. So whats wrong with assuming you are a WUM?

Have you ever watched Herrera? Or maybe I should rephrase this: Have you ever studied his game? I agree that pressing is one of his biggest assets though. But that's because he is a good runner and one of the most mobile midfielders in our team.

 

[ivaldo]

That's one argument when you don't have any arguments. Thank you.

As opposed to your rock solid argument. Your post is littered with analysis, statistics and examples.

 

[Ekeke]

He's painfully overrated here. But I know why. He looks good when he runs around; tackling, shouting. A classic Stevie Gerrard light in that aspect (and yes, I rated Stevie). He can't defend to save his life (which has been noted in this thread), his positional sense is one of the worst I've ever seen from a United midfielder. But hey, he's screaming at opponents so he must be God. With that said, he's not better or worse than anyone else. It's just not important that we give him a new contract, because we can and should aspire to be better. The hype around average players like Shaw and Herrera here just shows how far we have fallen.

So, you rated Gerrard but your argument is that Ander is like Gerrard and therefore not good enough.

And he's not like Gerrard anyway...

Where to start.

He's easily our most defensively responsible midfielder. He's the one who will track runners and get back to make a vital interception in the box. He's not perfect, he will make a mistake now and again like any other human footballer. But 9 times out of 10 the effort and commitment to do the right thing will be there because he senses danger and actually enjoys working hard to win the ball back when we dont have it. He doesnt just "do his bit" or try to look like hes doing his bit but with minimal effort. He works as hard or harder when we dont have the ball and thats why he averages the 2nd most tackles of any central midfielder in the league this season thats played at least 5 matches. He was 1st but is now just behind Idrissa Gueye at Everton. That may change over the coming weeks, but the point is he's right up there.

So thats also joint 8th most tackles out of CMs in europe and joint 6th most tackle attempts. He would also be 2nd in attempts in the premier league, behind Moutinho at Wolves.

Its all well and good suggesting we might be able to find someone better, but who would we sign that does what he does better? And how much are they going to cost compared to keeping him which is free?

 

[Witchking]

So, you rated Gerrard but your argument is that Ander is like Gerrard and therefore not good enough.

And he's not like Gerrard anyway...

Where to start.

He's easily our most defensively responsible midfielder. He's the one who will track runners and get back to make a vital interception in the box. He's not perfect, he will make a mistake now and again like any other human footballer. But 9 times out of 10 the effort and commitment to do the right thing will be there because he senses danger and actually enjoys working hard to win the ball back when we dont have it. He doesnt just "do his bit" or try to look like hes doing his bit but with minimal effort. He works as hard or harder when we dont have the ball and thats why he averages the 2nd most tackles of any central midfielder in the league this season thats played at least 5 matches. He was 1st but is now just behind Idrissa Gueye at Everton. That may change over the coming weeks, but the point is he's right up there.

So thats also joint 8th most tackles out of CMs in europe and joint 6th most tackle attempts. He would also be 2nd in attempts in the premier league, behind Moutinho at Wolves.

Its all well and good suggesting we might be able to find someone better, but who would we sign that does what he does better? And how much are they going to cost compared to keeping him which is free?

Excellent post. His post surely was a wum though.

 

[Irwin99]

I’ve just never understood the harsh criticism of Herrera. For a team that has been very slow/lethargic for years he’s always been the player that seems to get the most tackles/interceptions in and gets around the pitch the most. You can never accuse him of lacking passion.

Yes he, like everyone else, has had a few bad games every now and then but he’s by far and away the best pressing midfielder we've had since peak Fletcher. No he’s not world class but I bet Pep or Klopp would definitely use him if he were in their squads. I bet he’d be very useful to Chelsea and their new system too.

I think part of the problem is that he is a jack of all trades and has had all sorts of midfield roles here at United. He had spells as an attacking midfielder/number 10 in his first season and as a number 6 to varying success. His best season by far was In Jose’s first year in charge and he seems to be recovering some of that form this season. Hope he stays.

 

[Raven]

That's one argument when you don't have any arguments. Thank you.

It's either you're a WUM or you're totally clueless, I think he's been quite kind to assume the former.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Except Pogba or De Gea threads, probably all other threads have this "He is ok, but at Manchester United, we should have better players".
In short, we need to buy a new team.

 

[shamans]

He's painfully overrated here. But I know why. He looks good when he runs around; tackling, shouting. A classic Stevie Gerrard light in that aspect (and yes, I rated Stevie). He can't defend to save his life (which has been noted in this thread), his positional sense is one of the worst I've ever seen from a United midfielder. But hey, he's screaming at opponents so he must be God. With that said, he's not better or worse than anyone else. It's just not important that we give him a new contract, because we can and should aspire to be better. The hype around average players like Shaw and Herrera here just shows how far we have fallen.

I'll give it to you that he does get overrated on here but hes a damn good midfielder. Hes exactly the type of player any big club would have. We need a cog in the machine like him.

Shaw is average. Herrera is brilliant.

 

[zenith]

He'll be pivotal to beating spurs, in terms of beating the press and passing quickly to our forwards.

We've got to extend his contract as he's more than just a dedicated and talented player, he's captaincy material

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

He’s a very weird player, he’s a Spaniard who’s playing like an old school English midfielder.
I like his tenacity and would definitely keep him in the squad, and for now in the team, but there’s always a feeling there of “we can so better than him”.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

He'll be pivotal to beating spurs, in terms of beating the press and passing quickly to our forwards.

We've got to extend his contract as he's more than just a dedicated and talented player, he's captaincy material

He's not part of our quick passing to forward players. He quickly passes it right back where it came from and frequently refuses to turn into open forward space when unmarked. The problem with that is it's typically going right back to someone in our defense who is equally or even more limited with the ball at their feet. Just doesn't want the ball at his feet.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

I'll give it to you that he does get overrated on here but hes a damn good midfielder. Hes exactly the type of player any big club would have. We need a cog in the machine like him.

Shaw is average. Herrera is brilliant.

Shaw isn't average. He seems mentally shot.