[#07]

Anyone else think he's a pretty rubbish tackler? Dives in way too easily. I'd not really noticed that before at Bilbao so maybe it's just him lacking a bit of sharpness but if he's always like that then a midfield three with him and Mata absolutely has to have a dedicated DM in there.

Didn't he have great stats for tackling in Spain? Don't think he could rack up those sort of numbers if he was rubbish at tackling. Been a bit reckless for United so far, I agree. Could be down to over-enthusiasm as much as a lack of sharpness. He'll be as keen as anyone to make a big impact in his first few games.

I'd say its more a question of the latter. From what I've seen of him in the past Herrera doesn't seem up to full speed yet. Herrera's tackling is usually a bit better than what we've seen, although he likes a sliding tackle @Brwned and he'll be lunging into challenges all season long. In many respects the tag 'the Spanish Steven Gerrard' that Herrera got stuck with a few years back is not that inaccurate. They've a similar throw yourself in, go for it kind of style, although I'd argue that Herrera's less likely to see the ball bounce off his foot from a horrible first touch (though by the same token he's also less likely than Gerrard to smash one in from 25 yards when you need to be dug out of a hole...)

Meh. Splitting hairs here to try and work out who had the better game. They were both bang average really. Certainly close enough to make the scorn aimed at Cleverley contrast sharply with the excuses rolled out to defend Hererra.

I think the key thing is that Herrera ended up with an assist. I don't think Cleverley played that badly, and we collapsed defensively after he was subbed off. However, what most people see is Herrera playing a first time through ball for Welbeck to win a penalty and they forget the rest. It happens a lot in football. An average performance, and lets face it besides three good through balls Herrera wasn't his usual self, gets forgotten because a player does something in an attacking sense. The unjust thing for Clev is that his role wasn't to get forward so he shouldn't be judged for not playing the kind of defence splitting through ball Herrera laid on for Mata etc. It would be like asking Makelele to be Zidane (and before anyone says it I know they served different purposes, that was my point).

 

[Brightonian]

Meh. Splitting hairs here to try and work out who had the better game. They were both bang average really. Certainly close enough to make the scorn aimed at Cleverley contrast sharply with the excuses rolled out to defend Hererra.

This.

 

[Gladiator]

Meh. Splitting hairs here to try and work out who had the better game. They were both bang average really. Certainly close enough to make the scorn aimed at Cleverley contrast sharply with the excuses rolled out to defend Hererra.

Yeah that's fine. I thought Herrera clearly had the better game but we probably dont see the game the same way

 

[Gladiator]

The unjust thing for Clev is that his role wasn't to get forward so he shouldn't be judged for not playing the kind of defence splitting through ball Herrera laid on for Mata etc. It would be like asking Makelele to be Zidane (and before anyone says it I know they served different purposes, that was my point).

Part of the reason I graded down Cleverley's performance is because he was marked too easily at times throughout the time he was on the pitch. Although he did also appear in good positions, I think he could have done a much better job moving into spaces to give herrera a more lateral passing option. Instead he was essentially marked out of play in those situations. Small things I feel which can make a bigger impact than some would think

 

[#07]

Part of the reason I graded down Cleverley's performance is because he was marked too easily at times throughout the time he was on the pitch. Although he did also appear in good positions, I think he could have done a much better job moving into spaces to give herrera a more lateral passing option. Instead he was essentially marked out of play in those situations. Small things I feel which can make a bigger impact than some would think

To some extent this is true but Roma's game plan was to flood the midfield and then hit Blackett with the long ball from the back. There was relatively little space to play in and both Cleverley and Herrera were closed down quickly. Herrera managed to make a bit of space for himself one or two times but never really looked like going anywhere. Roma were tactically very impressive, even if the long diagonal to Destro became more and more predictable. They had an idea of how to play and until we scored it was working very well. It was only after Rooney put us ahead and Roma lost their composure that Herrera was able to do more in the game, although he did get one or two chances to spray passes beforehand (although two of those intended for Valencia went astray). Cleverley wasn't really to blame for our first half an hour performance, like Herrera he was being kept on a tight leash and kicked when he wriggled free.

 

[Momochiru]

Thought he was a bit shit against Roma. Passing was way off. So maybe Van Gaal must be right about the pitch/altitude fecking with their radars? Although that didn't stop Roma/Rooney playing some sweet long passes, so feck knows really.
Funny the way he hasn't had any criticism at all for that performance but an almost identical display from Cleverley earned him dog's abuse.

Well, not funny. It's understandable. People really want him to be a great player for us and his last outing was so encouraging none of us want to consider the possibility that he can't consistently perform at that level. I would have the same mind-set myself. Definite double standards, though. One of my real bug-bears on here. You so rarely see players judged on their performance in a specific game in isolation.

Herrera was not as influential as against Galaxy, but to compare him to Cleverley is unfair. Cleverley had pretty poor game, he lost the ball on multiple occasions in dangerous areas and did nothing about it - he was just standing there and hoping someone else will bail him out. He was directly responsible for Young's yellow card in my opinion. Herrera on the other hand didn't give up on the few occasions when he lost possession - he was chasing and tackling and most of the times managed to recover from his mistake. He had a few misplaced passes, but this was already discussed to death - our whole team was suffering from the conditions and misplacing more passes than usual. Herrera's vision was also miles ahead of Cleverley's - his passing created three very dangerous situations and one of them resulted in the penalty. Overall I'm still very pleased with his game, which I can't say about Cleverley.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

I'm afraid you're mistaken, again, and its becoming extremely difficult to take seriously your claims to have any real knowledge about Bilbao or Herrera. Herrera was the right sided centre midfielder in Bielsa's system, however Valverde used him as a #10 in a 4-2-3-1. Anyone who watched Bilbao last season would have seen this. In fact Spanish football experts, such as Graham Hunter, say Herrera's early season struggles were down to him learning how to play as a #10 (link). Other Spain watchers like Guillem Balague have argued that #10 is Herrera's best position (link). That is an opinion I disagree with, as does Herrera himself (link), I simply provide these sources as proof that you're wrong to deny Herrera played as a #10 under Valverde.

I'm not going to continue debating with you about Herrera' position. Based on the incorrect claims you've made about Ander, I simply can't believe that you know him as a player like you say you do. If I'm honest, you're coming across as a guy who saw some stats about passing completion on a webpage and decided to set yourself up as an Ander Herrera expert. For example, you talk about Herrera not knowing when to play the killer ball. The image below, courtesy of Sky Sports (link), shows in 2013/14 Herrera played as many successful through balls as Iniesta though. I take it you think Iniesta has a good understanding of when to play through balls? Therefore we should be able to agree someone who matches Iniesta's success in playing them is doing something right:

Plus, as we've already discussed, Van Gaal has said Herrera is one of the best passers at United and if anyone should know its him. I'm sure Van Gaal values possession as much as you say you do, if not more.

Ander Herrera is a top class midfielder. He is not sloppy in possession. He does not lack decision making or judgement when on the ball. Is he the finished article? No. However, the criticisms you're making of him are very wide of the mark. I'd be surprised if anyone who has watched Herrera on a regular basis would agree with any of the lines you're trotting out about him actually. The more you claim to know about Ander Herrera the more you come across not knowing much about him at all.

I don't really disagree with you, but just to be pedantic:
1. I think Graham Hunter is wrong if he said the reason Ander struggled at the start of last season was that he was getting used to playing as a 10. I'm not sure if you followed him when he was at Real Zaragoza but he was a number 10 back then and it's his natural position so there shouldn't have been much problem adjusting.

2. Not sure I'd read too much into where Ander says he plays best. After all, he was asked a similar question last season and he said he prefers to play close to the strikers. I think he's not particularly bothered about where he plays as long as he is involved in the team.

But yeah I generally agree, just had issues with those 2 points.

 

[Gladiator]

To some extent this is true but Roma's game plan was to flood the midfield and then hit Blackett with the long ball from the back. There was relatively little space to play in and both Cleverley and Herrera were closed down quickly. Herrera managed to make a bit of space for himself one or two times but never really looked like going anywhere. Roma were tactically very impressive, even if the long diagonal to Destro became more and more predictable. They had an idea of how to play and until we scored it was working very well. It was only after Rooney put us ahead and Roma lost their composure that Herrera was able to do more in the game, although he did get one or two chances to spray passes beforehand (although two of those intended for Valencia went astray). Cleverley wasn't really to blame for our first half an hour performance, like Herrera he was being kept on a tight leash and kicked when he wriggled free.

I'll watch the game again but I noticed this happen for cleverley even in the second half. And I wasn't blaming him for our first half performance either.

I agree that Roma were tactically good though. Probably the most organized side we'll play all tour

 

[Gladiator]

I don't really disagree with you, but just to be pedantic:
1. I think Graham Hunter is wrong if he said the reason Ander struggled at the start of last season was that he was getting used to playing as a 10. I'm not sure if you followed him when he was at Real Zaragoza but he was a number 10 back then and it's his natural position so there shouldn't have been much problem adjusting.

2. Not sure I'd read too much into where Ander says he plays best. After all, he was asked a similar question last season and he said he prefers to play close to the strikers. I think he's not particularly bothered about where he plays as long as he is involved in the team.

But yeah I generally agree, just had issues with those 2 points.

Playing well in your best position is also dependent on how the system operates around you. It's not easy to shine when your teammates' movements dont complement your own. Unless you're a more dynamic number 10, it can be difficult to really excel. So even if it's your natural position, if a system at a different club has different requirements for a number 10 then it's not implausible that said player may struggle

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Playing well in your best position is also dependent on how the system operates around you. It's not easy to shine when your teammates' movements dont complement your own. Unless you're a more dynamic number 10, it can be difficult to really excel. So even if it's your natural position, if a system at a different club has different requirements for a number 10 then it's not implausible that said player may struggle

Yeah I was actually going to add that in afterwards, that the change in system might have taken time to adjust to even if Ander has a lot of experience in the number 10 role.

 

[7even]

I would be a relief if Clev was good enough to partner Herrera, especially when we are short of quality in that department, but so far nothing has changed. Tom could be a good squad player but if he has ambitions and want to challenge for the national team he should ask for a transfer. It's always emotional when you have been at the club for so long but sometimes you have to make hard decisions in order to get the best out of your potential. Being a squad player for us gives him a nice life but will probably halter his future development

And comparing him to Ander Herrera is unfair to both of them, there is a golf of talent between them but Tom is an honest hardworking young man who have every chance to be successful in a smaller club.

 

[Gladiator]

Yeah I was actually going to add that in afterwards, that the change in system might have taken time to adjust to even if Ander has a lot of experience in the number 10 role.

ahh. wish you did!

 

[Rezyuz]

His passing was a bit sloppy against Roma, that's for sure.

Yup, all i said a few pages back that he never really stood out for me as a spectacular player in spain worth 37 mil. Not saying hes worth it or not, saying he never stood out for me like that because of his sloppy passing at times.

Its not my conclusion based on those articles its the conclusion based on the evidence of my own eyes, which have clearly seen Herrera in action more than yours. Those articles were just evidence that Herrera has played as a #10, which you denied by saying Herrera played in a middle three in front of Iturraspe holding. I notice you're no longer peddling that line.

If you don't expect people to disagree with your opinion on a forum, especially when you make claims that do not appear to be factual, then that's your issue. I just don't see Herrera as sloppy. There's a difference between trying something that does not come off and having poor execution. An overhit or underhit pass is sloppy, admittedly there were a couple of those against Roma too, but its not a feature of Herrera's game. There are very few players who go through games without many any mistakes at all. Usually the weighting on his passes is very good. His passes might get intercepted, the intended target may misread the intent leaving the ball may run through to the keeper/defender but he is not a sloppy player. It is rare for Herrera to skew a ball totally in the wrong direction.

This is what i said "Valverde always played with a 3 man midfield with Itu as CDM and 2 CMs in front of it. Herrera being the most attacking one in most cases specially when he brought in the other defensive guy in big matches (forgot his name). But that doesn't mean Herrera is a CAM lol".

Basically, i said he played a 3 man midfield, with Herrera being the most attacking one. I even said that in matches where he played defensive he brought in a second CDM where they actually moved Herrera as the sole attack orientated midfielder. What i said is the following: "But that doesn't mean Herrera is a CAM lol". aka just because you are noted as a #10 on paper, doesn't mean you actually are. Or do you also agree that Modric is a defensive midfielder.

Also i got no problem when people argue with me of course, i got a problem when people don't argue and just say "BS!" "YOU ARE NOT A UNITED FAN" etc when you simply once state a little negative aspect of a United player or staff member without any further argument which actually makes it a discussion. What mostly happens is just simply considered trolling, and not debating.

 

[pocco]

So it seems LVG sees him as a no.10. Hope to god he isn't going to limit him to that role.

 

[izec]

He mentioned Rooney as a striker and number 10 too. Maybe he sees Herrera as a 10 and an 8.

 

[ThanksBoss26]

He mentioned Rooney as a striker and number 10 too. Maybe he sees Herrera as a 10 and an 8.

Exactly. He can play behind the striker but he'll be playing him central midfield.

 

[jem]

So how was he against Inter? I missed the game.

 

[bosnian_red]

So how was he against Inter? I missed the game.

Looked good of course. Composed and calm on the ball. Inter parked the bus though so there weren't many cutting passes.

 

[ZDwyr]

He was solid. Fletcher was the best of the CMs.

 

[Devil may care]

I love the way he always receives the ball on the half turn, it's so refreshing to see that in our midfield. I hope his leg is ok though as he seemed in a bit of discomfort after he was clattered twice.

 

[Amadaeus]

He set my expectation of him to highly since his debut. I am back to reality after his last two performances.

 

[Feed Me]

Hererra will be played as a central midfielder. It's clear Mata is LvG's first choice for the player in the hole.

 

[daniel9988]

Hererra will be played as a central midfielder. It's clear Mata is LvG's first choice for the player in the hole.

Yeah. There's no way Mata is going to be displaced unless we somehow get a teenage Maradona in the squad.

 

[#07]

So how was he against Inter? I missed the game.

To my eyes Herrera played within himself and was quite tentative with the ball. I'm not used to Herrera being so risk averse so I can't be enthused by what I saw from him last night. Maybe he felt he needed to get his passing percentage up after the mistakes he made against Roma? Still, I actually feel Ander played better against Roma than against Inter.

Herrera was less accurate but more adventurous at the weekend. I don't remember Herrera misplacing any passes last night, I also don't remember him trying anything that hard last night either. Herrera ducked out of a few chances to run with the ball too, which I found disappointing because he has the talent for it. When Cleverley came on in Herrera's place he was a lot more energetic as the #8 in the side, and his passing showed more conviction and zip. Wouldn't be surprised if Herrera drops to the bench against Madrid. Although Herrera usually plays well against Madrid, so I would also be unsurprised if he ups his level against them if he Van Gaal gives him a run out.

 

[united_99]

Where was he playing? Behind Mata or as a 10?

 

[NMF]

Where was he playing? Behind Mata or as a 10?

Behind Mata. Didn't get involved with our attacks that much either.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Was a fairly average performance. Didn't see a lot of the ball, didn't do much when he did get on the ball and some clumsy challenges trying to win it back. Fletcher looked like a much more accomplished midfielder out there.

Still, we've always got his debut to fall back on if we need reassurance about his talent. Anyone expecting him to play like that in every game was being wildly optimistic. As with every new signing, he will take a while to settle. Probably won't see the best of him until next season.

 

[#07]

Was a fairly average performance. Didn't see a lot of the ball, didn't do much when he did get on the ball and some clumsy challenges trying to win it back. Fletcher looked like a much more accomplished midfielder out there.

Still, we've always got his debut to fall back on if we need reassurance about his talent. Anyone expecting him to play like that in every game was being wildly optimistic. As with every new signing, he will take a while to settle. Probably won't see the best of him until next season.

Don't think it'll take that long, Herrera thrives in space and most Premier League games are wide open. Very few teams in the Premier League will be as organised as Roma and Inter, especially in midfield. Herrera will enjoy the way Premier League teams commit men forward and play out end to end games, often leaving only 4-6 men back. However, that still doesn't make up for what was a pretty timid performance yesterday by Ander. I'm a huge fan of his and expect a lot more than what he showed last night, because he's capable of a lot more than what he showed last night.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Don't think it'll take that long, Herrera thrives in space and most Premier League games are wide open. Very few teams in the Premier League will be as organised as Roma and Inter, especially in midfield. Herrera will enjoy the way Premier League teams commit men forward and play out end to end games, often leaving only 4-6 men back. However, that still doesn't make up for what was a pretty timid performance yesterday by Ander. I'm a huge fan of his and expect a lot more than what he showed last night, because he's capable of a lot more than what he showed last night.

Most players who are new to the PL comment on how little time they have on the ball. It's definitely not a league you'd typically say it's easy to find space in. I think you're being very optimistic there.

It might not take him until next season to be a useful player but it's highly likely he won't be at his best until the tail end of this season, at the earliest. That's just the way transfers like this usually pan out. Another factor in the long list of reasons why anyone expecting us to stroll to a place in the top four this season is in for a rude awakening.

 

[ottosec]

Thought he did good. I like his style, never takes more than 2 seconds on the ball. Maybe that's something that LVG asked the players to do.

 

[Godfather]

Was a fairly average performance. Didn't see a lot of the ball, didn't do much when he did get on the ball and some clumsy challenges trying to win it back. Fletcher looked like a much more accomplished midfielder out there.

Still, we've always got his debut to fall back on if we need reassurance about his talent. Anyone expecting him to play like that in every game was being wildly optimistic. As with every new signing, he will take a while to settle. Probably won't see the best of him until next season.

Thought he did well in possession. Creates space for himself very well and knows how to control a football.
Fletcher was brilliant yesterday though so I agree.

 

[Speak]

Thought he did good. I like his style, never takes more than 2 seconds on the ball. Maybe that's something that LVG asked the players to do.

That's really just how he plays - with speed.

 

[NMF]

Most players who are new to the PL comment on how little time they have on the ball. It's definitely not a league you'd typically say it's easy to find space in. I think you're being very optimistic there.

It might not take him until next season to be a useful player but it's highly likely he won't be at his best until the tail end of this season, at the earliest. That's just the way transfers like this usually pan out. Another factor in the long list of reasons why anyone expecting us to stroll to a place in the top four this season is in for a rude awakening.

It depends on the player, Mata adjusted fairly quickly while i remember Silva took a few months to settle. A lot of Spanish/Bilbao fans say his game would have been more suited to the premier league as well personally I think he'll settle around Christmas.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Thought he did well in possession. Creates space for himself very well and knows how to control a football.
Fletcher was brilliant yesterday though so I agree.

Yeah, his first and second touches were usually great. Really knows how to wriggle away from someone who is tight to him. Just think he didn't do much useful once he'd created that space. Fletcher seemed to be doing all our best defensive and attacking work in central midfield.

 

[Godfather]

Yeah, his first and second touches were usually great. Really knows how to wriggle away from someone who is tight to him. Just think he didn't do much useful once he'd created that space. Fletcher seemed to be doing all our best defensive and attacking work in central midfield.

I felt the same. But this might be a thing that comes with getting to know the other players and their movements better.

Clev did that very well when he came on. He and Fletch both were great yesterday and probably one of the reasons why I enjoyed the second half more.

 

[#07]

@Pogue Mahone its the quickness of feet that you refer to that makes me feel Herrera will be an instant success in England. Yes, players get tight in the Premier League but its usually in a very naive way e.g. once players wriggle past someone they are often able to run unchallenged at a back line. Inter and Roma pressed intermittently, which involved alternating between a few seconds of getting tight and then retreating back into their shape. That meant every time Herrera did get some space he turned and faced up two solid lines in front of him. That tends to happen less in the Premier League.

However, as @Godfather says there is a way, even against that tight organisation that you can succeed and Cleverley's performance was a good example of this. Cleverley brought a bit of energy, a bit of running and a willingness to get forward more to the #8 role last night. By taking the ball past Inter players he was able to get through their shape and get into spaces that opened the game for us. He totally outshone Herrera and Herrera should be questioning himself today as to why he didn't show similar levels of ambition. As I've said, I thought Herrera was far more adventurous against Roma than Inter and (depsite the misplaced passes) I preferred his performance at the weekend to what he showed last night.

Fletcher, as you both say, was better than both: Visions of a volley against Everton flash through my mind...

 

[Invictus]

Fletcher backs Herrera to shine. Ander Herrera may only have been a Manchester United player for a month but Darren Fletcher has seen enough to believe the Spaniard could play a big role in the Reds’ season.

Fletcher, who’s now been playing for United longer than anybody else in the squad, possesses plenty of experience to judge his peers. And he reckons Herrera, who made his first United appearance alongside the Scot in Tour 2014's opening game against LA Galaxy, has what it takes to make a big impact at Old Trafford.

“He’s a really talented footballer,” Fletcher told ManUtd.com.

“He has great enthusiasm and great energy in midfield. He always wants the ball and is always looking to make things happen.
“His enthusiasm’s infectious – it’s rubbed off on a few of us already – and he works hard for the team. He wants to learn and listen, he takes on instructions well… and off the pitch he’s a good lad."

“He’s settled in really well and not only with the other Spanish-speaking lads. I think he’s going to be a key player for Manchester United.”

Herrera, 24, arrived from Athletic Club in late June, a day before teenage defender Luke Shaw also joined the Reds. And while both men will provide manager Louis van Gaal additional options this season, Fletcher believes their signings will also reap long-term rewards.

“First and foremost, they’re both great lads. They’re also top-quality players on the pitch," he said.
“There’s no doubt in my mind they’re great acquisitions – not just for the quality they bring to the team right now but for what they’ll bring in the future.
“They’re both young and should have many years ahead of them here. I’m sure they’ll develop into real Manchester United players and help us win trophies.”

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...can-be-key-at-manchester-united.aspx?pageNo=1

 

[Pexbo]

Hererra will be played as a central midfielder. It's clear Mata is LvG's first choice for the player in the hole.

I've always wondered how well this phrase would Google translate into other languages.

 

[Spielmacher]

I've always wondered how well this phrase would Google translate into other languages.

Google translate thinks that by player, you mean toy for sexual pleasure, in that context.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Really like what I hear about Hererra in terms of his attitude.