Good grief man. Too harsh. If that's your standard of a flop, then I wonder what you think of ADM. He had a run of games with Mata where we performed far better. And that run was at the end of a miserable season, and by the way, it wasn't a very long run either. The fact is he wouldn't had needed to be coached much; he's a natural like Herrera in terms of understanding movements and when to time them. He struggled because our team had no idea how to pass and move, a travesty for a modern football club. Van Gaal has rectified that.
21
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 31
- Goals
- 8
- Assists
- 5
- Yellow cards
- 6
- Status
Good grief man. Too harsh. If that's your standard of a flop, then I wonder what you think of ADM. He had a run of games with Mata where we performed far better. And that run was at the end of a miserable season, and by the way, it wasn't a very long run either. The fact is he wouldn't had needed to be coached much; he's a natural like Herrera in terms of understanding movements and when to time them. He struggled because our team had no idea how to pass and move, a travesty for a modern football club. Van Gaal has rectified that.
Not too harsh at all mate, and I really like ADM actually. Nah, I still think Kagawa did not make the grade he didn't step up when we needed him to (like most of the players btw). We don't miss him, don't need him and he was overrated anyway.
Here's a question, Do you think if we had got Herrera a year earlier as planned it would of resulted in Moyes doing better and keeping his job?
Probably not. LvG has recoached him into a far better player. The way the defence was and the rest of the team were performing poor Ander would have been dragged down to their level. It has actually worked out well for him to arrive this season. A lot better manager and a lot better coaching staff.
I think that's being a bit generous. Herrera at his best at Athletic was every bit as good as he has been for us in the last month or two. What I'd say LvG has done is mould him to fit in his system properly and show the positional discipline he didn't previously have, I don't think he's made him a better player, we're just seeing him at his best now because he's playing regularly and full of confidence.
Anyway, you'd expect him to be getting better regardless, he's 25 after all, for a midfielder it's safe to assume he isn't close to his peak yet.
You are right, but I still think it is better for Ander to have arrived at the club at a more optimistic time. The dressing room last season was poisonous, far too many agendas going on. He has come into a really happy tight dressing room this season and has shown himself to be willing to learn and improve. Moyes didn't know what to do with Juan Mata, not sure he would have utilised Ander properly either, fortunately we don't have to now worry about that.
Needs to play a lot better in his second season or he'll be a flop too.
It's unfair to label any new signing a flop in their debut season (which is why I'm even a little bit wary about writing Falcao off, just yet) If they don't kick on and improve in their second season (as we're seeing with Fellaini) then it's fair enough to call them a flop. As far as Kagawa's concerned his underwhelming return to Dortmund (and struggles for his national team) speaks volumes. A fairly average player we signed after a fairly exceptional 18 months.
Off topic, but I really don't consider this to be a 'flop' debut season for ADM. I think the main reason people see it as so is his enormous fee, which I guess it's fair enough, but I would've hoped by now that the majority of us would be able to look past transfer fees considering how crazy they are in the modern game. 4 goals and 12 assists really isn't a bad debut season for a player new to the English game who played in a mostly under performing team. I do expect better next season, though, obviously.
The ever growing but entirely ridiculous myth. They had one good game together and that was about 30 good minutes against the worst side in the second half of season in Newcastle.
Kagawa was about as average as average gets. Mediocre footballer who had 6 good months. Herrera is on a different planet and more importantly is not a footballing coward.
If he'd arrived with a similar fee/profile to Kagawa then I probably wouldn't be using the "F" word but when Ashley Young is keeping the most expensive player in the history of the Premier League on the bench, during our most critical run of games this season, you'd have to say he's been a long way short of an actual success.
But yeah, off topic. Hererra. Definitely not a flop!
Lvg using kagawa in that number 8 role was a very bad experiment and it is no surprised he did not do well in that position as he is not a number 8.
On the bold point, what role did you see Cleverley play at United? When he played, he mostly sat next to a holding midfielder player in either Carrick, Fletcher or sparingly Fellaini. That role is called a number 8. Even though he did not play like one, that was the role he occupied. Fletcher sometimes partner Carrick aswell last season and I agree post his injury, he adapted his game to be more of a deep lying midfielder, but once again the role he occupied when sat next to Carrick was that of a number 8, even though he did not look like one. As such, therein lied some of the problems we had with our midfield last season and as such, it had a bad effect on our attack.
I even remember last season saying that if we change our midfield for a league two midfield side we would be in much better shape. That how bad our midfield was last season and with a midfield that bad, I am really surprised how we got anything going in the attack.
Saw this bit on Baker & Kelly about Herrera
https://******/9phE
lol
https://******/9phE
lol
He's a genius.Saw this bit on Baker & Kelly about Herrera
https://******/9phE
lol
Brilliant player we have on our hands.
The way he creates space for himself is a joy to watch.
That's kind of his signature move. Shapes to take it on the turn, then takes the ball back where it came from instead. Really effective and not something you see many players do.
Was he awarded the assist for youngs goal? It was a brilliant left footed cross to be honest
Is he doing a feint? Not particular sure what that move is called. It seems to be a signature move of his.
Edit missed the post below.
Love watching this lad! He is just fantastic, hope it continues!
Can't stress enough how important first touch is especially for midfielders. A good first touch is like have an extra move. A great first touch is worth an extra move and a second or two.
Well I would say it is especially important for goalkeepers. A goalkeeper with a bad first touch sounds terrible.
Should teach Rooney how to do that
If a player has a good solid first touch, he can decide what to do with the ball before he has it. His teammates can also start timing their runs before he has recieved the ball. If his first touch can't be counted on, he and his teammates will have to wait and see where the ball ends up and then they finally can decide what to do. It slows the play down a lot. So I think it's even more important for good team play than for the individual player.
I agree he was overrated. Not to flog a dead horse but my point is the whole argument about him "stepping up" is weak because he wasn't given a fair shot. If we're nitpicking I could argue that he had a better first season than ADM is having at the moment.
Agree that his inability to pick himself up speaks volumes about his mentality. Totally disagree that he's an average player. Anyone can see his talent and quality.
You really should learn to watch how our play improves when we have players who know how to move and pick a pass. We looked far less mindless with him on the field under Moyes. The malaise was the team and lack of basic footballing principles that were not rectified by the coaching team, there was no one player we could pin the blame for Moyes' debacle on. Moreover, Herrera and Kagawa are similar in terms of their intelligent attributes but not the same type of player.
For me, talent and quality (however you define those concepts) mean nothing without the right mentality. "Average" is an exaggeration but he seems like a fairweather footballer. Looks good when everything is going his way but can't dig deep when he needs to. Nobody to blame for his failure at United but himself.
Contrast with Hererra, who had to knuckle down and work his bollocks off to win over a manager who obviously had grave doubts about him. That's the type of player we should be signing, not the likes of Kagawa.
I really don't need to learn anything if your evidence of us looking less mindless is limited half an hour against a terrible team. Nor did I pin anything on Kagawa. He was a bang average player. Can't blame him for not being able to change anything.
They are not similar in any shape or form. Herrera effects games. Not just in goals or assists but his incisive passing and tackling. So much so that he was dropped for looking for the ball and moving out of position. Kagawa moved around the pitch doing sweet feck all only for his fanbois to claim it was excellent movement and football intelligence.
I thought Kagawa was the type of player (which he was hyped as I might add!) that could bring us closer to Barcelona.. How wrong was I?
Herrera, however, is exactly that kind of player
oddly enough I'm not disagreeing with you Pogue. I agree that talent and quality are nothing without the right mentality and that Herrera is exactly the type of player we need right now. I was defending Kagawa and will continue to do so against people like akash who seem to have a special hatred for him whilst not being able to recognise that there was a far more deeper problem with our football and our team the time he was there and the fact that people are slamming a guy who wasn't given a fair shot.
Calling someone average isn't hating.
I long for the day when people stop blaming everyone but Shinji Kagawa for his performances at the club and realize that maybe, just maybe he wasn't actually very good after all.
Chelsea 1:0 Man Utd
Unironically shits on Fabregas.
Don't jinx him.
Sorely missed further forward, as great as he has been.
He isnt a DM, his defensive awareness gets exposed
Unbelievable how many balls he wins and intercepts.
I thought he would be OK in a deeper role but he is definitely doing better than I expected.
Best player on the pitch by a distance. I genuinely think he's a better CM than Fábregas, and as an AM Fábregas is nullified relatively easily.
Carrick is disguise?
Yeah he's definitely been our best so far. One misplaced pass that Chelsea countered from, other than that he's been our Xabi Alonso so far
He's gonna be the best midfielder in the league.
Already is
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