[redevil2]

How old are you? Because either your a 5 yr old kid, or you are a 35 yr old who thinks hes cool for acting like internet youth nowadays.

I don't give a shit about Moyes, never did and always disliked him. But i got a fecking brain and i don't blame a sole person for an entire season of madness when there is obviously 11 players on the field failing, an entire staff not going against him, a board who signed him and a legendary managed who only wanted him as his successor. So stop acting like an idiot and use your brain for once.

By the sound of it i don't rate Sir Alex? Lawl, i think hes the best manager who has ever set foot on this earth. And considering we are starting the radials slurs, but you probably don't know what the feck a manager does and what a real coach is. Open your fecking eyes and look at Louis van Gaal and learn this year. Then you can start talking with the rest of the world and you can start judging if someones strategies are good or bad.

Turning nasty, eh! You sounded like you have a twisted brain and unnecessarily lectured other. Why not just answer some simple and straight forward questions instead of sprouting insult?? You still failed to answer my question: Before RvP joined United, were you a gooner? Yes, or no? If no, before RvP joined United, which team did you support?

If you can't hold a conversation without being nasty, then don't bother to respond.

 

[r0x0rwolfo]

We all know how great and unique Sir Alex is as an manager, but there's no chance that he got way more out of that squad than anyone else could have done. Guardiola would have had Cleverley (for example) playing like Xavi within weeks.

I'd say he got more out of that squad. A year before toe to toe with real Madrid, a year and 67m later...

No one can get Cleverly to play like Xavi, that's just crazy. However, Cleverly was decent before Moyes, now he's being ridiculed.

Moyes was a poor man manager, SAF was an excellent one, one of his best strengths was extracting the most from his squad.

 

[Rezyuz]

Turning nasty, eh! You sounded like you have a twisted brain and unnecessarily lectured other. Why not just answer some simple and straight forward questions instead of sprouting insult?? You still failed to answer my question: Before RvP joined United, were you a gooner? Yes, or no? If no, before RvP joined United, which team did you support?

If you can't hold a conversation without being nasty, then don't bother to respond.

Im a United fan since 1997 when i got taken to the match Feyenoord-Man United when i was 8 years old because my team won a tournament and this was our reward. Before that, i used to apparently have an Ajax spread on my bed. So no, never ever in my life have i been fan of Arsenal.

And excuse me if i got out of control, but to be fair, i don't see why you would make such statements purely based on my country. And your "did you cry, are you still crying stuff" is purely trying to taunt me to actually get this irritated. Im up for any discussion/debate which is actually a discussion. But when people refuse to even think about an argument and blatantly act like "LALALALA i can't hear you, SAF NEVER DID ANYTHING WRONG" like most around here then whats the point of a discussion?

At the end of the day, Moyes fecked up, he fecked up hard. I never liked him, and absolutely hated his appointment. But we all know that you cannot blame 1 person for everything that has happened to us last season.

 

[Melvyn]

This discussion should be in another thread.

 

[Stretford Red1978]

Whoah whoah! Folks' this is the Ander Herrera thread let's discuss him for the love of Pete!

 

[Gladiator]

Does anyone know if there were stats measuring passes between Cleverley and Herrera? From my observations, didn't really seemed like they linked up much in that first half passing wise. I'll watch it again but wasn't impressed by some of Cleverley's movements. There were times where he wanted the ball yet his marker was still close to him. Puzzling.

 

[Gladiator]

I thought it was a little unfair for him to say that. Scholes is a club legend and rated very highly by Spanish players and for him to say he isn't top quality was
Harsh.

can you point me to the quote where scholes said that about ander? As far as I know, scholes quotes on herrera werent that bad and people just insinuated he was putting down Herrera's quality.

 

[NMF]

can you point me to the quote where scholes said that about ander? As far as I know, scholes quotes on herrera werent that bad and people just insinuated he was putting down Herrera's quality.

I'm on my phone at the moment so I can't get the link but it said something along the lines of them (Herrera and Shaw) are good players but not the level of Kroos.

 

[Gladiator]

I'm on my phone at the moment so I can't get the link but it said something along the lines of them (Herrera and Shaw) are good players but not the level of Kroos.

Was that the headline or his actual quotes? And okay. just link me when you find it

 

[jeff_goldblum]

Was that the headline or his actual quotes? And okay. just link me when you find it

It was on his paddypower blog if you want to try searching for it. It was just a quote rather than a headline, basically iirc it was just one line saying how shaw and Herrera were good signings but he wants to see united in for kroos as he's better (he spent a while on the same article waxing lyrical about kroos)

 

[Gladiator]

It was on his paddypower blog if you want to try searching for it. It was just a quote rather than a headline, basically iirc it was just one line saying how shaw and Herrera were good signings but he wants to see united in for kroos as he's better (he spent a while on the same article waxing lyrical about kroos)

Okay thanks.

 

[Sunny Jim]

i think im in love with this guy. saw him on Saturday, granted he didn't have a great game (not saying it was bad, just it was not spectacular) and I think he has great future at this club.

 

[Sunny Jim]

We are 2 signings away from this

id wank to this line up

 

[NMF]

i think im in love with this guy. saw him on Saturday, granted he didn't have a great game (not saying it was bad, just it was not spectacular) and I think he has great future at this club.

What's funny is his performance against Roma was better than all our midfielders could manage last season.

 

[Sunny Jim]

What's funny is his performance against Roma was better than all our midfielders could manage last season.

absolutely . the gulf in quality was immense.

 

[NMF]

absolutely . the gulf in quality was immense.

Just need another quality midfielder beside him and I can see him being one of our most important players.

 

[Ling]

A better example would be the Keane/Ince partership. Worked a treat although in later years Ince was apparently starting to get egoistical and started to disobey SAF's tactical instructions. I can't think of any other midfield duo with both of them being genuine box-to-box players. Fernandinho and Toure are most certainly not a box-to-box midfield duo as most claim. They are both capable of playing such a role but in City's team Fernandinho is the defensive midfielder and Toure is the more attacking one. With the trend of a midfield trio and specialisation of roles (holding mid/midfield metronome/attacking midfielder) genuine box-to-box midielders are rare to find nowdays. I remember Zico and Tostao saying that even Brazil Post 1982 stopped producing/favouring midfielder who could both attack and defend, and started to focus on more specialized midfielders with extra tactical responsibility.

Yes, it's much better example. Fernandinho was box to box in Shakhtar, and Yaya was defensive midfielder in Barcelona. However, that doesn't mean they'd play in exact roles in their new club, City, and they didn't. Vidal has quality to protect defense and but only that, he's very useful in attack. Keane was box to box as they come, and most of people see him as destroyer. I can't say they are 100% wrong, that was his main job, but he had many other qualities that separated him from generic destroyers such as Gattuso or Makelele.

 

[#07]

Oke to be fair, i don't watch Bilbao's full match every week, who does. I mean i follow la liga every week very closely and if Madrid/Barca plays i always prioritize it above anyone. The thing is, most people see everyone who is creative and in midfield as a 10. Valverde always played with a 3 man midfield with Itu as CDM and 2 CMs in front of it. Herrera being the most attacking one in most cases specially when he brought in the other defensive guy in big matches (forgot his name). But that doesn't mean Herrera is a CAM lol. Its like saying Iniesta is a CM just because hes there on paper in a 433.Or saying Rooney was a CAM under moyes (like every website suggested).

And Herrera takes risk, i know its awesome that he tries. But he doesn't have the experience to know when not to risk. Im the type of guy who doesn't care where the ball is lost, as long as it is lost. because that means the opponent gets his chance to recover and build up again.

I'm afraid you're mistaken, again, and its becoming extremely difficult to take seriously your claims to have any real knowledge about Bilbao or Herrera. Herrera was the right sided centre midfielder in Bielsa's system, however Valverde used him as a #10 in a 4-2-3-1. Anyone who watched Bilbao last season would have seen this. In fact Spanish football experts, such as Graham Hunter, say Herrera's early season struggles were down to him learning how to play as a #10 (link). Other Spain watchers like Guillem Balague have argued that #10 is Herrera's best position (link). That is an opinion I disagree with, as does Herrera himself (link), I simply provide these sources as proof that you're wrong to deny Herrera played as a #10 under Valverde.

I'm not going to continue debating with you about Herrera' position. Based on the incorrect claims you've made about Ander, I simply can't believe that you know him as a player like you say you do. If I'm honest, you're coming across as a guy who saw some stats about passing completion on a webpage and decided to set yourself up as an Ander Herrera expert. For example, you talk about Herrera not knowing when to play the killer ball. The image below, courtesy of Sky Sports (link), shows in 2013/14 Herrera played as many successful through balls as Iniesta though. I take it you think Iniesta has a good understanding of when to play through balls? Therefore we should be able to agree someone who matches Iniesta's success in playing them is doing something right:

Plus, as we've already discussed, Van Gaal has said Herrera is one of the best passers at United and if anyone should know its him. I'm sure Van Gaal values possession as much as you say you do, if not more.

Ander Herrera is a top class midfielder. He is not sloppy in possession. He does not lack decision making or judgement when on the ball. Is he the finished article? No. However, the criticisms you're making of him are very wide of the mark. I'd be surprised if anyone who has watched Herrera on a regular basis would agree with any of the lines you're trotting out about him actually. The more you claim to know about Ander Herrera the more you come across not knowing much about him at all.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I think he is better than I realised. No doubt he looked classy for Bilbao, but I think until you see him play for your own team you can't fully appreciate somebody.

It's so nice to see a midfielder confident in their own abilities, and not cared to take somebody on by themselves.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Herrera and Carrick would be our first choice pairing (if Carrick was fit). The drop in quality in our second string is just ridiculous. We have no depth in midfield at all.

I agree about Herrera though, obviously. Early days and all but he looks like he'd suit the league as well.

That's ok considering we have been playing without a midfield for a good few years!

 

[Kaos]

I really, really want to see what he could do alongside a quality midfielder, or even a De Jong type holding player. He's been promising despite having to play alongside our midtable midfielders.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Thought he was a bit shit against Roma. Passing was way off. So maybe Van Gaal must be right about the pitch/altitude fecking with their radars? Although that didn't stop Roma/Rooney playing some sweet long passes, so feck knows really.
Funny the way he hasn't had any criticism at all for that performance but an almost identical display from Cleverley earned him dog's abuse.

Well, not funny. It's understandable. People really want him to be a great player for us and his last outing was so encouraging none of us want to consider the possibility that he can't consistently perform at that level. I would have the same mind-set myself. Definite double standards, though. One of my real bug-bears on here. You so rarely see players judged on their performance in a specific game in isolation.

 

[red_7]

Cleverley has given the ball away 3 times before the break. Herrera was not so good (compared to the LA game) but still miles ahead of Cleverley.

 

[Rezyuz]

I'm afraid you're mistaken, again, and its becoming extremely difficult to take seriously your claims to have any real knowledge about Bilbao or Herrera. Herrera was the right sided centre midfielder in Bielsa's system, however Valverde used him as a #10 in a 4-2-3-1. Anyone who watched Bilbao last season would have seen this. In fact Spanish football experts, such as Graham Hunter, say Herrera's early season struggles were down to him learning how to play as a #10 (link). Other Spain watchers like Guillem Balague have argued that #10 is Herrera's best position (link). That is an opinion I disagree with, as does Herrera himself (link), I simply provide these sources as proof that you're wrong to deny Herrera played as a #10 under Valverde.

I'm not going to continue debating with you about Herrera' position. Based on the incorrect claims you've made about Ander, I simply can't believe that you know him as a player like you say you do. If I'm honest, you're coming across as a guy who saw some stats about passing completion on a webpage and decided to set yourself up as an Ander Herrera expert. For example, you talk about Herrera not knowing when to play the killer ball. The image below, courtesy of Sky Sports (link), shows in 2013/14 Herrera played as many successful through balls as Iniesta though. I take it you think Iniesta has a good understanding of when to play through balls? Therefore we should be able to agree someone who matches Iniesta's success in playing them is doing something right:

Plus, as we've already discussed, Van Gaal has said Herrera is one of the best passers at United and if anyone should know its him. I'm sure Van Gaal values possession as much as you say you do, if not more.

Ander Herrera is a top class midfielder. He is not sloppy in possession. He does not lack decision making or judgement when on the ball. Is he the finished article? No. However, the criticisms you're making of him are very wide of the mark. I'd be surprised if anyone who has watched Herrera on a regular basis would agree with any of the lines you're trotting out about him actually. The more you claim to know about Ander Herrera the more you come across not knowing much about him at all.

Where have i said im some kind of Herrera expert, i don't follow him at all specifically? All i said was i follow La Liga every week and seen a good amount of Bilbao matches and found Herrera to be a sloppy passer at times. Do you also want to show Herrera's passing attempts next to that beautiful number 13?

This forum is getting wildly out of control tbh with people just exploding the second you mention their "new FOTM player".

This is your first link:

"While Herrera's position during parts of the season -- the middle creative player in the line of three in a 4-2-3-1 formation -- was something he found a test, he nonetheless won Valverde's confidence there."

This is your second link:

"So where is Herrera going to play? He’s been used by Bilbao in a number of different positions around the midfield"

This is your conclusion based on these articles:

Herrera was the right sided centre midfielder in Bielsa's system, however Valverde used him as a #10 in a 4-2-3-1. Anyone who watched Bilbao last season would have seen this.

Do you see whats wrong with it? I don't specifically keep tabs on Herrera during the season, hell i couldn't even be bothered with him last season as La Liga got 100 more attracting players to watch. Its like you getting pissed at a guy who says "i watch the BPL every week and seen the top 10 play on a weekly base" then you going nuts because that person doesn't know what the exact position of Ross Barkley was at Everton. You don't care, until it matters to you (aka signed for United or hes a big player, which he wasnt/isnt). All i know is that it stood out to me that his passing was at times really sloppy/taking to much risk and failing. And if people can't say that on this forum anymore, without having to fight off 3 kids who love their new FOTM then really, im done with this website.

Starting to think of it, he actually did this pretty much entire match vs Roma also. With his highest risk pass being the back pass to the keeper which were incredibly stupid to make.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Where have i said im some kind of Herrera expert, i don't follow him at all specifically? All i said was i follow La Liga every week and seen a good amount of Bilbao matches and found Herrera to be a sloppy passer at times. Do you also want to show Herrera's passing attempts next to that beautiful number 13?

His passing was a bit sloppy against Roma, that's for sure.

 

[Speak]

Herrera's passing can be sloppy. I don't know how anyone can deny it.

He's naturally very forward thinking, he isn't afraid to try quick one-touch flicks with the outside of his foot or to scoop under the ball, and he also plays at a quick pace, so it's not surprising.
He's also just not as consistently accurate with his touch and pass as some like Koke or Thiago. He's good technically and can manipulate the ball well, but he's not a 'metronome'.

It's not really a slight on him, or anything to try to deny. He's still a very good passer, has great vision, and can assist superbly with lofted balls. He'll give beautiful assists that most others can only imagine (like the one against us at Old Trafford), so he's still a great player to have.

There are going to be games this season where he seems to give the ball away too much. But at least with him, you know he wont shy away from the ball because of it. And he's always capable of a good through ball delivered at any height.

 

[DWelbz19]

Thiago, sure, butI don't know about your comparison with Koke. He's a very similar passer to Ander - constantly looking for quick and risky passes. I'm pretty sure his pass percentage accuracy was also in the low 80's, much like Herrera's.

 

[#07]

Where have i said im some kind of Herrera expert, i don't follow him at all specifically? All i said was i follow La Liga every week and seen a good amount of Bilbao matches and found Herrera to be a sloppy passer at times. Do you also want to show Herrera's passing attempts next to that beautiful number 13?

This forum is getting wildly out of control tbh with people just exploding the second you mention their "new FOTM player".

This is your first link:

"While Herrera's position during parts of the season -- the middle creative player in the line of three in a 4-2-3-1 formation -- was something he found a test, he nonetheless won Valverde's confidence there."

This is your second link:

"So where is Herrera going to play? He’s been used by Bilbao in a number of different positions around the midfield"

This is your conclusion based on these articles:

Herrera was the right sided centre midfielder in Bielsa's system, however Valverde used him as a #10 in a 4-2-3-1. Anyone who watched Bilbao last season would have seen this.

Do you see whats wrong with it? I don't specifically keep tabs on Herrera during the season, hell i couldn't even be bothered with him last season as La Liga got 100 more attracting players to watch. Its like you getting pissed at a guy who says "i watch the BPL every week and seen the top 10 play on a weekly base" then you going nuts because that person doesn't know what the exact position of Ross Barkley was at Everton. You don't care, until it matters to you (aka signed for United or hes a big player, which he wasnt/isnt). All i know is that it stood out to me that his passing was at times really sloppy/taking to much risk and failing. And if people can't say that on this forum anymore, without having to fight off 3 kids who love their new FOTM then really, im done with this website.

Starting to think of it, he actually did this pretty much entire match vs Roma also. With his highest risk pass being the back pass to the keeper which were incredibly stupid to make.

Its not my conclusion based on those articles its the conclusion based on the evidence of my own eyes, which have clearly seen Herrera in action more than yours. Those articles were just evidence that Herrera has played as a #10, which you denied by saying Herrera played in a middle three in front of Iturraspe holding. I notice you're no longer peddling that line.

If you don't expect people to disagree with your opinion on a forum, especially when you make claims that do not appear to be factual, then that's your issue. I just don't see Herrera as sloppy. There's a difference between trying something that does not come off and having poor execution. An overhit or underhit pass is sloppy, admittedly there were a couple of those against Roma too, but its not a feature of Herrera's game. There are very few players who go through games without many any mistakes at all. Usually the weighting on his passes is very good. His passes might get intercepted, the intended target may misread the intent leaving the ball may run through to the keeper/defender but he is not a sloppy player. It is rare for Herrera to skew a ball totally in the wrong direction.

 

[Speak]

Thiago, sure, butI don't know about your comparison with Koke. He's a very similar passer to Ander - constantly looking for quick and risky passes. I'm pretty sure his pass percentage accuracy was also in the low 80's, much like Herrera's.

I haven't seen tons of Koke, to be honest. The few times I saw him play last year, he was very controlled and calculating, and barely broke out of a jog. Almost the perfect Xavi impersonation, with more physicality, but still in a measured way.

I never really saw him play with the extreme speed and directness of Herrera, but maybe I just caught the wrong games.
He didn't seem to have a real technical advantage over Herrera, but didn't play with the same fast, experimental style.

 

[NMF]

Herrera isn't your typical Spanish midfielder he likes to play fast and risky at times, his not one to play the simple pass when he thinks he has a chance to split a defense or create space hence why his pass accuracy is only around 80%

Like his pass for Young's 1st goal against Galaxy if that was any of our other midfielders they wouldn't of tried that and would have passed sideways. I personally feel we will benefit hugely to his ability to think and act quickly to spot movements but like others I will feel a bit more comfortable with a more defensive minded midfielder next to him.

 

[Gladiator]

Thought he was a bit shit against Roma. Passing was way off. So maybe Van Gaal must be right about the pitch/altitude fecking with their radars? Although that didn't stop Roma/Rooney playing some sweet long passes, so feck knows really.
Funny the way he hasn't had any criticism at all for that performance but an almost identical display from Cleverley earned him dog's abuse.

Well, not funny. It's understandable. People really want him to be a great player for us and his last outing was so encouraging none of us want to consider the possibility that he can't consistently perform at that level. I would have the same mind-set myself. Definite double standards, though. One of my real bug-bears on here. You so rarely see players judged on their performance in a specific game in isolation.

The bolded bit is the key part though Pogue. If people saw his performance differently than that statement above then is it really double standards?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The bolded bit is the key part though Pogue. If people saw his performance differently than that statement above then is it really double standards?

I've no doubt they would argue that they saw the performance differently. Not all bias is conscious. In fact, most isn't.

 

[Gladiator]

I've no doubt they would argue that they saw the performance differently. Not all bias is conscious. In fact, most isn't.

Sure but then where does your position fall within the whole spectrum? unbiased?

 

[Brwned]

Anyone else think he's a pretty rubbish tackler? Dives in way too easily. I'd not really noticed that before at Bilbao so maybe it's just him lacking a bit of sharpness but if he's always like that then a midfield three with him and Mata absolutely has to have a dedicated DM in there.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sure but then where does your position fall within the whole spectrum? unbiased?

Well I'm open to the possibility that Cleverley could still be a good player for us. So that puts me in a relatively unbiased minority, when it comes to judging his performances, certainly.

I'm probably as keen as everyone else for Herrara to succeed, so am just as likely to over-rate him. Maybe a little less giddy about him than some. Although that's probably just because I'm a bit older and jaded.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Anyone else think he's a pretty rubbish tackler? Dives in way too easily. I'd not really noticed that before at Bilbao so maybe it's just him lacking a bit of sharpness but if he's always like that then a midfield three with him and Mata absolutely has to have a dedicated DM in there.

Didn't he have great stats for tackling in Spain? Don't think he could rack up those sort of numbers if he was rubbish at tackling. Been a bit reckless for United so far, I agree. Could be down to over-enthusiasm as much as a lack of sharpness. He'll be as keen as anyone to make a big impact in his first few games.

 

[DWelbz19]

if he's always like that then a midfield three with him and Mata absolutely has to have a dedicated DM in there.

Not sure. If we play the 352 I don't think we'd need a true #6 to sit back, as I think with Mata, Herrera and an energetic CM (Vidal/Strootman) we have a lot of intensity and tenacity in pressing and winning the ball high up the field would be far more beneficial, as opposed to a sweeper to clean up, as one of our ball playing CB's (Evans/new signing) could perform that role.

 

[Ekeke]

Anyone else think he's a pretty rubbish tackler? Dives in way too easily. I'd not really noticed that before at Bilbao so maybe it's just him lacking a bit of sharpness but if he's always like that then a midfield three with him and Mata absolutely has to have a dedicated DM in there.

Sort of. I know I've seen him get some of those diving sliding tackles right for Bilbao, but at the same time so far in pre-season he's done it the moment the ball is lost and never really got near winning it back. You can see why he's had a problem with picking up yellow cards.

I'm hoping that once he's properly match fit and settled he'll win the ball now and then with them

 

[Gladiator]

Anyone else think he's a pretty rubbish tackler? Dives in way too easily. I'd not really noticed that before at Bilbao so maybe it's just him lacking a bit of sharpness but if he's always like that then a midfield three with him and Mata absolutely has to have a dedicated DM in there.

I would say from the type of tacklers we're used to seeing in PL, probably more unorthodox in his tackling but from the stats I checked, he makes a fair amount and wins most of them.

Well I'm open to the possibility that Cleverley could still be a good player for us. So that puts me in a relatively unbiased minority, when it comes to judging his performances, certainly.

I'm probably as keen as everyone else for Herrara to succeed, so am just as likely to over-rate him. Maybe a little less giddy about him than some. Although that's probably just because I'm a bit older and jaded.

I think Cleverley could be a good player for us also but I didn't think he was that great either on Saturday. I would say decent as best. I thought Ander had better moments than Tom so if there was a scorecard, I'd score him slightly higher but not too much. More football to be played anyway.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think Cleverley could be a good player for us also but I didn't think he was that great either on Saturday. I would say decent as best. I thought Ander had better moments than Tom so if there was a scorecard, I'd score him slightly higher but not too much. More football to be played anyway.

Meh. Splitting hairs here to try and work out who had the better game. They were both bang average really. Certainly close enough to make the scorn aimed at Cleverley contrast sharply with the excuses rolled out to defend Hererra.