Yes Herrera was taken off, but Van Gaal admitted he shouldn't have done it. Herrera and United were just taking control of the game and putting Fellaini on actually lost them the game.
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Cleverley as good as Herrera? Not a chance. Herrera has a lot more desire for a start.
Taking Herrera off was a poor substitution that day to be honest, he wasn't great, but he was a damn sight better than most.
Yep, Herrera, at his best, is actually the player id hoped cleverly would become.
Where did I mention that?
Your whole thrust was that Cleverley could have played better in that role, was it not?
Nope.
Not better but basically as well as?
I am now beginning to think it is better commenting after watching a game again later and more objectively. The comments yesterday were made when people were stresssing that we might not win the game. Ander is a better player than Tom Cleverley, there is no doubt about that. His attitude is spot on and he puts total effort in every game. The game yesterday, he played better than you'd have thought reading this thread. LvG has obviously asked him to curb his flair and stop making risky passes. He is actually doing that pretty well. Does it take something from his game, of course it does. Tom was going along quite well, until he got himself a celebrity girlfriend and started thinking they were the next Posh and Becks. Herrera has more intelligence, imagination and skill. Now that might be more down to better coaching in Spain than the coaching, not just as footballers, but as human beings . They have to work hard to get where they are, here they think as soon as they sign a professional contract they have made it big time.
I wasn't too impressed with Ander against Newcastle and I understand the comparison to Cleverley in that restricted context. He did the easy stuff very competently but was sloppy in his forward passing and generally didn't do anything special, which was Cleverley's stock-and-trade before he lost his confidence and fully went rapidly downhill last season.
Herrera is far better, just yesterday's game wasn't a great example of that.
Herrera is far better, just yesterday's game wasn't a great example of that.
Funny enough, they were talking about yesterdays game on Talksport and saying that LvG has no confidence in that defence and that he won't play attractive football until he sorts it out. We have lost most of the back 4, Vidic, Evra and Rio and Shaw has hardly played due to fitness. Rafael has disappearred completely. Smalling, Evans and Jones were back ups when the others were in their pomp and I am not convinced and I presume LvG isn't either that they are good enough to be the first choice defence in the future. It is probably no suprise that we are being rather sterile and won't take risks. Herrera and Blind were covering every blade of grass yesterday, that might actually be taking it's toll on their stamina towards the end of games. If Carrick comes in to share the workload it might help both of them. I don't think the defence is the only issue, the forward line isn't mobile enough either.
It seems so.
I don't remember Cleverley getting even a sniff of the goal in yonks before we shipped him off (Herrera offside against Sunderland).
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I'd agree with that. I think that one of the reasons Herrera was out of the running for a first team place for so long is that LvG didn't want to play a defensively porous midfield in front of a shakey back-4 - it's no surprise that Ander's getting starts now that he's proven his willingness to change his game.
Although I don't think that entirely explains his performance yesterday, he did try to make some killer passes last night and more often than not got it wrong. That's not a reflection on his ability though, he's proven himself capable of making those passes, it just wasn't his day in that regard. In basically all other aspects of his performance he did his job incredibly well.
In terms of the Herrera/Cleverley debate, I think the main difference is that Herrera looked a frustrated figure last night in possession. He'd receive the ball and he'd hold on to it and advance with so much time but was unable to do anything incisive with it. Still, dribbling with the ball draws someone out of position at some point and that's something Cleverley never does. As soon as he gets the ball, he moves it on, whether he has 2 yards of space infront of him or 20. It was very sideways for Herrera last night, but he was actually creating some space when he was in possession most of the time, you wouldn't get that from Cleverley.
I don't have a problem with sideways passing as long as the team is moving forward as a unit at the same time. Ander likes to get the ball then move into space, problem starts if nobody makes themselves available for the pass in the first place or don't grasp what he is trying to do and then pass it backwards.
That's because we're geared to a certain set up though. If Fellaini has pushed on into the box for example, there's no point in trying to force it through the centre of the field when it's clear we're anticipating that the ball will be worked down the wing.
Maybe that is why we could do with a couple of nippy forwards. Wilson would thrive on through balls. Unfortunately Fellaini doesn't and RvP/Falcao don't now have the mobility.
Herrera on Arsenal clash: "We are Manchester United and we are not afraid."
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...e=twitter&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=ManUtd
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...e=twitter&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=ManUtd
I'm hoping that Fellaini will be phased out next season when we're comfortable with moving the ball up the pitch. I'm pretty sure the only reason we play him there is so that we can retain possession when we are pressurised back to the goalkeeper and resort to going long. Ideally, we'd have someone there that is able to transition us into attack when teams press us high, rather than be a plan B when we are unable to work the ball through teams. As you say, when we are in the final third there's players that'd be a lot more useful upfront/midfield than Fellaini.
If this was meant for me then, as I said before, if Van Gaal wanted a player to play it short, sideways and be cautious, then Cleverley could have did what Blind and Herrera did against Sunderland and Newcastle, in my opinion.
This is not to say Cleverley and Herrera are similar players, though. I guess like people have suggested, he might be just instructed to play safe.
He was never a midfielder with fantastic passing range or world class technical ability. People just get so overhyped when we buy players comparing them to Scholes and all that bollix. Ander is what he is, a bundle of energy who likes to get on the football combined with a fantastic work rate and attitude. Will never be a world beater and in all honesty probably wouldn't start for Chelsea or City but with an improvement in quality around him he can turn out to be a big player for us.
That sounds like Scott Parker to me, and Ander Herrera isn't really just this. If he was, then he'd never have been scouted in the first place.
You've got to have a degree of common sense before taking every definition by it's face value. Scott Parker wasn't very good on the ball at the highest level and his work rate and energy was put into winning the ball back rather than when a side was in possession.
Hes got loads of technical ability, a consistently brilliant first touch, a good dribbler of the ball, a reliable passer (with his short passes) and he has a good shot on him. You're doing him a disservice saying a bundle of energy is all he is when he's class on the ball, is a very intelligent player and has a great eye for a through pass with his creativity. Also when comparing him to city midfielders, only Yaya is better then him so he'd probably start for them, though they'd need a more defensive player behind them since Toure isn't that.
He's not starting ahead of Silva, and City prefer to play with 2 strikers anyway.
No but he is ahead of Fernando, fernandinho, Milner, Nasri, dzeko, bony and jovetic... So there would be a reshuffle if they did have him. He's not world class but those players are all pretty poor so it's not exactly huge praise saying he'd start over them, he's just clearly better. Though I do rate him very highly.
He's hardly proved he's better than Fernandinho yet, has he?
I think he's shown more in his limited appearances then fernandinho has shown really. Fernandinho is decent but I've never been impressed with him, he fouls constantly and has the odd really good game, but more often then not is a bit shit. At least the impression I get when I watch him.
Not so much of a case of what herrera has shown, rather a case of the others showing they aren't very good.
That's the fecking spirit lad.
When you hear that attitude it's hard not to contrast to Moyseh last season. "Do you think you can win?" "Well that's not really the priority right now, we've first of all got to believe that we are not going to lose. Right now I don't but I'm going to keep grafting away and working hard and hopefully this shithouse bunch of players I have been left with don't feck up and make me look even more of a wanker than I already do. With a bit of luck we won't concede six and that will be a real good effort and something to build on. Liverpool and City is the target, I really admire those clubs and their fans and I hope we can get to that position as a club. Chance would be a fecking fine thing though."
Incredible to think that's an actual quote from his press conference in the run up to the Villa game last season.
He's not competing for a place with Fernandinho or Fernando because they're defensive minded options. He's not competing with Bony or Dzeko either because the decision to go 442/4231 would be a tactical one rather than based in personnel, and as I say, Silva is getting picked behind the striker before he is. He's a better option than Milner or Lampard as footballers, but considering Yaya is first choice, there's no real need for high quality replacements.
Basically, he wouldn't be first choice whether City play 442 or 4231, which is what I think the original post was implying.
Tactics are assessed via personnel for most pragmatic managers, not the other way around. Herrera is actually exactly the kind of midfielder City could do with in their squad and first team. Silva is fantastic, but what's behind is bland (Fernando, Fernandinho) or flagging (Toure, Lampard).
I've been calling out their midfield for a while now. Toure aside, it's nothing to shout about. And buying a creative, energetic central midfielder that is comfortable on the ball all across the midfield is exactly the kind of signing I dread they make. If not Herrera then better players like Pogba and Koke.
I think Herrera in midfield for City would improve them, definitely.
The decision of whether to play a 4231 or a 442 would be based on the opposition they're playing I'd say. Would playing an extra striker enable us to push the Barcelona back line deeper and create more gaps in their pressing game? Rather than, is Herrera better player than Dzeko.
A lot of people on here suggest going with a 433 for United against elite opposition with Carrick behind Blind and Herrera, because the latter in a midfield two would be too open. I'd dread to think how open City's midfield would be should they have Herrera, Pogba or Koke next to Toure, I genuinely feel sorry for Fernandinho because he's basically a one man army in the centre of midfield.
Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of average players at City and I'm happy we have Herrera at United, but my point is that for the two roles you'd ask Herrera to do there, they have a better player to do it in the starting eleven.
Partly. The opponent certainly comes into it, but from a starting point in team selection the manager will always look to play the team that most benefits the playing squad. The City 442 has worked in this case, for the most part. I think we'll agree there.
I think this City team may be reaching its nadir, however. Toure only has so long left at the top. Kompany and Zabaleta haven't been their reliable selves. I think they need a revamp, particularly all across the midfield, with perhaps a change in formation. I think they could do with the dynamic influence of a player like Herrera, although I wouldn't then necessarily advocate pairing him in two man central midfield with Toure at the Nou Camp, for example.
I do take your point, though. If they want a defensive midfielder then he's not that, and if they want a goalscorer from midfield then he's not improving what they have there either.
Meh, that was the impression I got when I read that. That statement was meandering toward the other extreme, for me. Actually, come to think of it, that's a better description of Jonjo Shelvey/Steven Davis than Scott Parker.
The only thing I agree with is that he hasn't yet demonstrated a world class passing range. I am hoping that he can improve on that as it will really make him a complete midfielder. However, he's demonstrated everything else at a very high level. His technique was on show against Newcastle when Abeid/Sissoko would try to win the ball against him and he'd keep possession with great balance and skill before passing it out. His ball control is very good (typical Spanish), and his passing is also quite accurate. He's also shown an eye for goal that he's never demonstrated before. Defensively, he's not as unreliable as people make him out to be. Sure, if he pushes high up the pitch as a central midfielder, then we're in trouble, but whenever he recovers his position, his defensive work and handling of the opposition attacks is very good.
None of us here have been saying that he's comparable to Scholes or world class already, but he's been a key player for us this season, and he's done well so far in his first season here.
Herrera can play like Cleverley but Cleverley can't play like Herrera is the point.
Herrera has a lot more in his locker and by following this line of argument you're just insinuating he is no better, which is just weird,
As I said Herrera scored against Sunderland but was ruled offside. So even if he was instructed to play the lynchpin role he still had the nouse to spot an opening.
Massive upgrade on Cleverley. And yes I think you've answered your own question at the end,
To be honest, I'm in agreement with you that someone like Koke or Pogba would be ideal for them. If they want to keep getting the best out of Toure without sacrificing their defensive system, then a pivot 433 with Dinho behind Toure and let's say Pogba would be beneficial. The problem is that Pellegrini has his preferences and philosophy and a 433 isn't a part of it, and he predominantly likes to play with two strikers so I can't see that happening any time soon, which is good.
He's a good player who is a useful option for most sides. He's a well rounded midfielder that has a lot of qualities and very few weaknesses. He doesn't particularly excel at anything though, which is why he is a level below the elite players that the best sides in the world have. And I'm talking about regarding elite status here, saying he doesn't excel doesn't mean I'm branding him with any average midfielder, players like Cleverley don't belong in this discussion and that's why he isn't with us currently.
Initially, you replied to my post saying, 'Cleverley as good as Herrera? No chance'.
Like I said before, not once did I say Cleverley was as good or better than Herrera. I was just saying that if we're going to play the way we've been using the our centre midfielders, then Cleverley could do that role. Again, that's not to say he's a better player.
For example, we could have Xavi in our midfield. However, if he's asked by Van Gaal to play five yard passes and be very cautious in his passing (sidewards and backwards), then that's taking away the natural abilities of him as a player.
If Van Gaal gives Herrera more freedom and allows him to take more risks and be more adventurous, then of course I'd have him over Cleverley. I mean, that's what we bought him for, right? However, I'm not seeing this at the moment.
I must say, though, this Van Gaal telling them to play safe is being exaggerated, in my opinion. I mean, Van Gaal has expressed that he likes to switch play, and drag teams from side to side; however, I very rarely see that from Herrera or Blind, who prefer short passes. I mean, sometimes you have to drag teams from one side to another, and the only way you can do that is by hitting a long ball sometimes. There were loads of opportunities Blind and Herrera had to switch play against Newscatsle and they decided to play a short pass, which is pretty easy to defend, especially when played at a slow tempo.
I actually think cautious passing suits Xavi better, he very rarely plays long Pirlo or Scholes style passes. Xavi's game has always been about moving the ball side to side like a see-saw until someone goes chasing, then he'll quickly slip one across the deck into the space left by the defending player who breaks shape.
Herrera is not nor will he ever be a Xavi type player. Herrera's more inclined to run with the ball, to advance into forward areas to receive the ball, to get stuck in and get up and down the pitch. Van Gaal won't like that because if his #8 gets caught too far ahead of the play it means his #6 will be exposed to a 2 on 1 situation. Van Gaal's philosophy is all about creating overloads through good shape and positioning, and avoiding being overloaded by good shape and positioning.
Herrera, together with others, is clearly trying to curb his natural footballing instincts to play as Van Gaal would want him to. You are probably right that Van Gaal has not told them to only play 5-10 yard passes, however because its all new the team they find it difficult to do anything else. They resort to a lot of laboured slow passes because they don't want to risk deviating too far from the plan. They know if they keep it simple and keep the ball they'll at least be congratulated by the manager for controlling the game.
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