Cleverly could do nothing in the midfield. He could barely pass or shoot and his movement was shit.
He was also a coward, hiding from the ball on occasion.
Herrera is none of those things.
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Cleverly could do nothing in the midfield. He could barely pass or shoot and his movement was shit.
He was also a coward, hiding from the ball on occasion.
Herrera is none of those things.
I disagree.
This is not me comparing Herrera and Cleverley before anyone jumps down my throat, but if you told Cleverley to do what Herrera did tonight, and against Sunderland, he would have, in my opinion. Quick passing (short range), constantly on the move, energetic, etc.
If there's one thing we noticed from this match about Herrera, it's his limited range of passing. There were several instances where I noticed that he could play a long diagonal out to Young or di Maria but, instead, opt for a short ground pass. The fact that he always looked for a short pass meant that our tempo and pace was going to be slow.
It didn't help that Fellaini was frequently pushing high up when we had the ball, thus making it difficult for him and Blind to play the ball forward without having it intercepted. Also, his movement and positioning was quite disciplined. It would be difficult to see Herrera really involved in the final third unless we had someone else fill in for him (total football-like).
Having said this, though, he really should work on his range of passing. A greater range of passing would allow him more control over our tempo and build-up speed.
It didn't help that Fellaini was frequently pushing high up when we had the ball, thus making it difficult for him and Blind to play the ball forward without having it intercepted. Also, his movement and positioning was quite disciplined. It would be difficult to see Herrera really involved in the final third unless we had someone else fill in for him (total football-like).
Having said this, though, he really should work on his range of passing. A greater range of passing would allow him more control over our tempo and build-up speed.
Where he gave it away, it was a clear foul. It certainly wasn't shoudler to shoulder and he was clattered into in his back instead. He was okay but I really don't know why the players are so obviously told to keep the ball over anything. It's possession for the point of just having the ball rather than actually doing anything with it. He'd do much better given a license to be more risky.
In some of our upcoming matches, I feel like a solid base in the midfield would be useful. Especially Liverpool and Chelsea away. Blind can be more mobile, we've seen that from him. He just is usually asked to be a holding mid when he's filling Carricks role like today. Think adding Carrick in there would free them both up a bit and we could see more of their attacking and passing range without having to use someone like Fellaini or Rooney in mf
I see your point....I hope LVG comes to the same conclusion as well.
I thought he did ok. He intercepted a lot of passes it looked like, but ya he was also kinda invisible. In games like this you'd expect a player like him to make the difference. Hopefully he can sort it out and be as creative as he can in games like that.
Exactly. Extremely cautious passing is definetely LvG's instruction.
I watched the match again, and I noticed that Herrera was clearly playing more cautiously than he did in the past couple of matches. The whole team was, to be fair. He was quite cautious in his positioning and only went forward when our wingers got the ball in the final third. His passing was quite good, but the fact that we didn't have a proper #10 made it difficult for him play the ball forward as he only had Rooney to aim for. It didn't help that Newcastle had 11 men behind the ball for much of the match; it meant that playing the ball forward would often result in us losing it, hence why both Blind and Herrera played more safely than they did in the past couple of matches.
I think thats a fair, and good, assessment. He looks like he's playing against his natural instincts, but he is adapting to the LVG's methods and that can only be a good thing for his long term future here.
Personally, I prefer the riskier Herrera we saw at the start of the season, but I think we just need to all accept that that isn't LVG's way of playing, and we're going to have to get used to this style of play, as its here to stay (while LVG is here anyway)
I think this is just Phase 1 of Herrera's transformation for van Gaal. Now that he's become more disciplined, I believe the next phase will be for him to improve his passing range. Given that our wingers rarely cut inside when we were trying to build up our attack, Herrera will need to improve his passing range so that he can quickly play the ball out wide and stretch the opposition. He hasn't really shown a good passing range, and I'm hoping that he can improve on that so that he can be fully capable of controlling our tempo and build-up speed.
If ever I've seen a player trying to obey orders, it's Herrera. He was obviously on a, "be more like Blind," instruction set which makes sense if we're heading in a 451 (with wingers) type direction for the next few games. Unfortunately I think he'll get dropped so that Carrick partners Blind, but that's a different issue.
While he's working with those orders, United are missing a link man going forward. Di Maria isn't in good enough form and his orders probably say, "only lose the ball in the final third." Mata would seem to be the obvious route for a passing/possession driven team and I was really hopeful in those odd games where we saw Herrera, Di Maria, Mata working together that it could really blossom into something good, but it looks like we're not going to get that.
While he's working with those orders, United are missing a link man going forward. Di Maria isn't in good enough form and his orders probably say, "only lose the ball in the final third." Mata would seem to be the obvious route for a passing/possession driven team and I was really hopeful in those odd games where we saw Herrera, Di Maria, Mata working together that it could really blossom into something good, but it looks like we're not going to get that.
This is something that I don't understand, he was consistently disrupting our possession game, by pushing up and not being available for a pass, numerous times he should have been the bridge between Herrera-Blind and Young but he was pushing high up sometimes to the point to be totally offside.
Agree with @jojojo regarding Herrera. The Spanish lad has been obviously instructed to play it safe, taking minimum risks. Looks like the creativity is solely on AdM's shoulders. Also agree with the posters who say that Herrera was fouled last night, when Newcastle got the ball and countered. That was a clear foul.
He looks like the pain in the arse little brother who always tags along.
It was typical of the type of challenge that is referee'd differently in the PL and in Spain. We've seen the same thing happen to Hererra a few times. It's all good, though. Part of his learning curve. He'll be a better player for it.
Not sure if it was a foul that is referee'd differently in the two countries. Ander was not shielding the ball, it was not a situation where he was brushed off the ball because his opponent won shoulder-to-shoulder contact. It was a push imo. Rooney who is stronger than Ander would fall down and lose the ball too. Though Fellaini probably would not
I've been a bit critical of some of Herreras game but that's just savage.
Nah, that's fair enough. Cleverley had some good performances for United. He had some shit performances too (especially recently) but why re-write history?
On a good day, Cleverley could have done everything Hererra did last night. And probably a bit more.
On a good day, Cleverley could have done everything Hererra did last night. And probably a bit more.
Once upon a time I thought Cleverley was going to be the big beneficiary of Van Gaal's appointment. I thought he might enjoy the kind of renaissance Young has had. Or put another way, I thought he might become the kind of midfielder Herrera is turning out to be.
His creativity was very restricted last night. You could tell he was advised to play a certain way. I am hoping to see him in a midfield trio with Carrick and Blind at some point with Herrera being the creative output.
Agree with that, but I think Herrera's mentality is less questionable. He'll dig in and want the ball even when things aren't going too great. eg Yoevil away. Doing the opposite of this is definitely Clevs' main issue.
He's a much better version of Cleverley. Much better.
Love Ander Herrera, was not impressed by him last night. He had some bright moments in the first half where he found Valencia through the eye of the needle when switching the play, on the whole I thought he looked hesitant, risk-averse and as though he was over thinking every action. This was typified when he was caught in possession in the run up to Cisse's one on one. He had the ball and got caught out trying to be cautious instead of moving it quickly as he used to instinctively. I am disappointed that I can barely remember him running forward to receive a give and go or driving from midfield with the ball at his feet. Hope he's more ambitious next week.
Herrera is still finding his feet in EPL. If we compare both his and Clevs top performances, then it is Ander during his Bilbao times, a terrific player. So, while Clevs will hardly ever play in CL or probably even in EL again, I am optimistic about Ander's chances of winning a European cup with us.
Yes. He definitely seems a stronger character. All the more so considering his personal circumstances, compared to Cleverley. He's also a better player.
I was really only disagreeing with the idea that what we saw last night was somehow above and beyond anything Cleverley ever produced for United. That's not true at all.
Barely managed a forward pass last night. Can only assume he was told to take less risks but took that to a new extreme. Hope we don't coach the joy out of his game.
We played 4-4-2 last night, it’s clear all of our creativity should be coming from wingers in that setup. His safe passing is keeping him in this team and it’s crucial in that setup, because he only has CBs and Blind behind him, so it would be criminal to lose the ball in such situation. It's not like we didn't create chances either.
I don’t think his future lies so deep though (his long passing isn’t good enough I reckon), he seems much better player when he has the license to take more risk with his passing. I would rather see him ahead of Fellaini and Blind in games like that. It’s not like Fellaini couldn’t do the job against Newcastle who were around their penalty area most of the time.
Regarding Cleverley, yes I think he would have done well yesterday. But he would be useless against any other opposition that wants to play football and win, that’s why he was sold, rightly so.
I don’t think his future lies so deep though (his long passing isn’t good enough I reckon), he seems much better player when he has the license to take more risk with his passing. I would rather see him ahead of Fellaini and Blind in games like that. It’s not like Fellaini couldn’t do the job against Newcastle who were around their penalty area most of the time.
Regarding Cleverley, yes I think he would have done well yesterday. But he would be useless against any other opposition that wants to play football and win, that’s why he was sold, rightly so.
I hope LvG plans to use him as the AM in 4-3-3 once he gets the box to box controller he wants.
I didn't like his performance last night, but that's probably what van Gaal is asking from him lately, which is bit stupid, but okay, as long as he's playing I won't complain too much, but he is definitely better player than he is showing in last couple of games.
I thought he, like Blind, looked a bit tired/laboured last night... some of his passes were very nice, but in general he seemed quite a bit slower on the ball then he usual is - especially when it came to darting forward with the ball.
Also got very lucky when he was caught in possession... yeah it might have been a foul (need to see it again, but I thought it wasn't on first view) but he's taking a risk there that he really doesn't need to take.
Also got very lucky when he was caught in possession... yeah it might have been a foul (need to see it again, but I thought it wasn't on first view) but he's taking a risk there that he really doesn't need to take.
Not at all. A typical game for Cleverley consisted of getting the ball, keeping it ticking, playing short passes, constantly on the move, playing safe, etc. I don't see how that's savage.
If Van Gaal wanted a safe player to keep possession and move the ball at a quick tempo, then Cleverley would have been ideal.
Only Cleverley didn't do any of that when he did get his chance under Van Gaal. He was also very poor under Moyes. For some reason he obviously struggles with doing himself justice under pressure. So he's not ideal for United, no matter how he plays the game.
After hearing the article with those "anonymous" quotes from him about Keane working them into the ground and to paraphrase "it's ok to do that at United but not for what we get paid at Villa", that told me everything I needed to know about him.
I always thought he came across as headstrong with lots of self belief with the way he spoke of himself when he was here. In hindsight I think he was actually a bit self entitled and deluded about his own ability. He got a reputation fast and then rested on his laurels. Clearly felt he had made it.
If we're not counting pre season games, as a lot of people like to do, then Cleverley only had one competitive game under Van Gaal, which come against Sunderland, where, from what I can remember, he wasn't bad, he was just typical Cleverley, as I described before.
Yes, he was poor under Moyes, and yes he did lack confidence, but so did everyone else. Of course it doesn't help when a petition is made to not have him in the world cup squad - ridiculous.
If he played in a team with confidence - a team that has emphasis on keeping possession - as it seems Van Gaal is doing, then Cleverley could, and has shown in the past, he can do that job.
He was terrible. A lot worse than Hererra last night anyway.
Except he wouldn't.
The Cleverley of early 2011-12 would but the current one doesn't do quick passing and barely moves at all.
Him and/or blind need to start spreading play more. Too many players that play the side pass. Too many simple balls. I think we're too exacting at the minute resulting in creating or shooting fewer times. We did create about 4 or so chances but in general need to test the goalkeeper more. The Cleverly comparison is fair, though I Ander seems to have more potential for goals at the minute
Terrible? No chance. Also, it's pretty pointless comparing the both performance wise, as they were playing in complete different systems. Yesterday we played a 4411. Against Sunderland earlier on in the season, we played a 352 that everyone struggled to shine in.
If you're going to compare the both performance wise, you should probably go back to our first game of the season against Swansea, where Herrera was bang average, hence why he got taken off for Fellaini.
As I made it clear before, I just think if Cleverley was in the team yesterday and against Sunderland, in a 4411 next to Blind, we would have seen similar performances. That's just my opinion anyway.
I've just sat and watched the whole game through again. Ander was not bad actually. The role he and Blind are playing is very taxing tbh. The amount of work those two lads are getting through is amazing. They both are putting loads of effort in and does anyone know how many passes they both got through last night and the success rate of the passes. It is no wonder they both look exhausted at the end of games. There is a good partnership developing there as you said. I would prefer to see Ander being allowed to attack more, but at least he is working hard for the team.
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