For all the talk of him being risky and sloppy the guy who we play every week in midfield probably messes things up due to poor touches/passes more than anyone else given he's not even a midfielder.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 31
- Goals
- 8
- Assists
- 5
- Yellow cards
- 6
- Status
If you add Rooney to that equation, then I'd agree. In the math of putting all these puzzle pieces together, Herrera seems to get the lowest coefficient of those three from LVG.
Fellaini's form doesn't help either, but I think the last-minute deal for Falcao is what really fowled up Herrera. As that meant Rooney would inevitably be moved further back into what are Herrera's natural postion(s).
Moved the ball well. Should play a lot more.
Rooney---RVP-------
----------Mata--------
--DiMaria------Herrera
---------Blind---------
Would seem to be worth a shot as our lineup at home.
Rooney---RVP-------
----------Mata--------
--DiMaria------Herrera
---------Blind---------
Would seem to be worth a shot as our lineup at home.
The lad is not having a great time at the moment. It is a shame but I only hope he comes out the other end smiling.
We don't know what has been going on, if this has affected him. Hope it goes well for him.
True.
I fear playing for Manchester United might not help his cause during the court case.
Well he is going to miss the Newcastle game and then it is the F.A. Cup Q/F a few days later. It all depends how it is going for him. What a mess.
He brings so much more positives to the team than many other players that play regulary like Rooney in midfield or Fellaini. He's always available, plays the ball forward (on the ground, not hoofing) while bringing energy and urgency to our play. Exactly what we need. LVG really should play him
Yep, and if we want to play Fellaini I'd rather see Mata replaced than Herrera to be honest.
Can pretty much guarantee that it'll have affected him on some level. Credit to him for putting in some good performances in spite of what's been happening, when he's been on the pitch you wouldn't notice that there's anything wrong. Hopefully it'll all be ok.
I completely agree with this. I would love to see a midfield four of Blind, Fellaini, Herrera and Di Maria. It would be very balanced.
He's ok when he plays, doesn't do much wrong in fairness but I don't think it's a huge travesty he is missing out at the moment. To me it does seem a bit like the Kagawa situation still in that their stock rises when they're on the bench and we struggle, if they come on and do little people just ignore that fact completely and scrape the barrel for compliments of the performance.
Comparing kagawa and herrera makes no sense, kagawa was just never good enough at united, people would fawn over his " movement" or his " 1 touch passing"
Whereas Herrera in limited minutes already has 3 goals and 4 assists from midfield, hes a damn productive player if you ask me
I really love the guy but i believe some of you are exaggerating here. It's not like we have Iniesta or Schweinsteiger in our squad and we're leaving him to rot on the bench. Our midfield has two major problems at the moment. The first one is the absence of a ball carrier/box to box midfielder with the ability to operate in deeper positions, receive the first pass from Carrick/Blind or/and collect the second balls near our box and connect the lines. The second problem is the lack of players who beat defenders and make things happen on their own in the final third.
I'll start with the latter because it's easier to analyse. It's obvious that Ander isn't a winger and he can not play as a forward in our current formations. The only option for him is to play in the hole instead of Mata. I have watched him at Athletic in that role, he served Valverde's high pressing game well but he wasn't the player the Basques relied on to get goals and assists. In a season we struggle to create anything from the wings and our forwards seem to be cut off from the rest of the team Mata comes second in the "chances created" category (28), behind only Di Maria (35) and ahead of Rooney (26) and van Persie (20). Now, if our forwards can gain some decent form and manage to beat defenders to a ball more often, Herrera could really prove useful in that role. He would also definitely improve our pressing game. Some suggest that he can be better than Mata in the creative area too and while this may be true, you can not blame the manager for rotating our most creative players (Mata, Rooney, AdM) in that role. This isn't the position we need strengthening.
As for the ball carrier/box to box midfielder, we don't have one in our squad and the fact that Rooney isn't doing a great job doesn't mean that Herrera can play the role better, right now. It is a "special" role in the diamond since we're not using two all around box to box midfielders. It seems that LvG has decided to use AdM (with Januzaj next in the pecking order) as the more attacking minded CM, the one who will push up, run at defenders and try to make things happen in the final third. The other box to box midfielder must have a more organizing role in our midfield. Rooney, who is currently playing there, is not a ready-made solution and Herrera isn't either. Both of them are learning the position. Why does LvG prefer Rooney? Imo it's not the defensive contribution, the physicality or the concentration. Rooney is great at doing two things on the pitch, the first one is collecting second balls and the other is that he's very quick in developing a good understanding with his teammates. Maybe van Gaal believes he can do the first near our box as well as he does it in the final third. The second is pretty obvious, yesterday it took him 10-15 minutes to start clicking with McNair on the right.
So, is Herrera doomed at United? I'd say we're not even close to that. After all, the manager has said that we are more than full in the #10 position and that Rooney is the best option we have there. We must also keep in mind that LvG is a manager who strongly believes that a player can improve through training. Herrera's job is not to come on and be slightly better than Rooney as a CM, he must adopt to the role and own it. I strongly believe that he can make it here.
I'll start with the latter because it's easier to analyse. It's obvious that Ander isn't a winger and he can not play as a forward in our current formations. The only option for him is to play in the hole instead of Mata. I have watched him at Athletic in that role, he served Valverde's high pressing game well but he wasn't the player the Basques relied on to get goals and assists. In a season we struggle to create anything from the wings and our forwards seem to be cut off from the rest of the team Mata comes second in the "chances created" category (28), behind only Di Maria (35) and ahead of Rooney (26) and van Persie (20). Now, if our forwards can gain some decent form and manage to beat defenders to a ball more often, Herrera could really prove useful in that role. He would also definitely improve our pressing game. Some suggest that he can be better than Mata in the creative area too and while this may be true, you can not blame the manager for rotating our most creative players (Mata, Rooney, AdM) in that role. This isn't the position we need strengthening.
As for the ball carrier/box to box midfielder, we don't have one in our squad and the fact that Rooney isn't doing a great job doesn't mean that Herrera can play the role better, right now. It is a "special" role in the diamond since we're not using two all around box to box midfielders. It seems that LvG has decided to use AdM (with Januzaj next in the pecking order) as the more attacking minded CM, the one who will push up, run at defenders and try to make things happen in the final third. The other box to box midfielder must have a more organizing role in our midfield. Rooney, who is currently playing there, is not a ready-made solution and Herrera isn't either. Both of them are learning the position. Why does LvG prefer Rooney? Imo it's not the defensive contribution, the physicality or the concentration. Rooney is great at doing two things on the pitch, the first one is collecting second balls and the other is that he's very quick in developing a good understanding with his teammates. Maybe van Gaal believes he can do the first near our box as well as he does it in the final third. The second is pretty obvious, yesterday it took him 10-15 minutes to start clicking with McNair on the right.
So, is Herrera doomed at United? I'd say we're not even close to that. After all, the manager has said that we are more than full in the #10 position and that Rooney is the best option we have there. We must also keep in mind that LvG is a manager who strongly believes that a player can improve through training. Herrera's job is not to come on and be slightly better than Rooney as a CM, he must adopt to the role and own it. I strongly believe that he can make it here.
I'm not comparing them in terms of being players but rather in terms of the fact their stock rises when they don't play. I'm not suggesting either are bad footballers but at the same time they're not the saviour to all our problems.
People are writing him off way to early as well, it's possible he's just taking a while to settle it happens to plenty of players. Ivanovic at Chelsea barely played in his first few seasons and now he's probably one of the first names on the team sheet. Herrera has been here a little over 6 months.
I dont think herrera has shown signs he needs to settle in, everytime hes played hes a character in the Rafael type of mode, likes to grab the game by the scruff of the neck, is a real little fighter, very combative, and direct
He's not taking a while to settle. He's been good when played, he's just been put away from the side by van Gaal with seemingly no chance of return.
I think he has settled in as a person, his style of play maybe needs to be tweaked by LvG. Just wants him to be a bit more disciplined. Although there are plenty of others who are still taking risks and are getting gametime.
can't even get a start against a league 2 opposition..
Maybe not for what we expect. For what LVG expects though it seems clear he has, hence he's not playing. There's also other aspects, he might not be settling in off the pitch etc. Never really know.
I don't actually dislike the guy and think he's decent enough when he plays, just don't see it as this big mistake when he doesn't really. Whilst we're not brilliant to watch we have won a lot of games recently without him.
Most of our recent wins, have been against pretty lowly teams, and a win should be expected, its just the play wasnt so good, and alot of that is due to playing Rooney in midfield, and people think by playing an actual midfielder with the composure, vision and skills needed to play there, herrera is a much better fit than Rooney
I am actually starting to feel sorry for Wayne as I can't imagine he wants to be playing there. He won't admit it publically though.
LvG is finding a spot for Rooney in the team regardless of the formation he plays and the other players out there, he shouldn't be too frustrated. The manager is basically saying he's completely undroppable, unlike certain others.
Nobody should be undroppable. tbh.
That's Wayne, always shy to publicly admit when he isn't happy.
He only does it when there's money involved. I still haven't forgiven him for those episodes.
He's a greedy, selfish cnut and he does it whenever he wants something. Never feel sorry for Wayne Rooney.
He would soon talk if he wasn't undroppable.
That's the problem LvG has created for himself. He should never have said that. Now if he does need to anytime, the shit will seriously hit the fan with Rooney.
Yep, it's really frustrating to see him playing again and again in that position especially when it seems like he's moving Di Maria back into midfield. I'm scared he actually believes Rooney's doing a good job there, or if it's just what others think about getting all the names on the pitch at the same time. I'd be concerned about him leading the line now too. He done it very well in 2009/10 but that was 5 years ago. RVP has shown since then he's the superior front man, and leads the line better without dropping deep all the time. I'd probably prefer Rooney playing off him, but then I like Mata in there too.
Vicious circle.
Lvg is obsessed about playing 2 strikers. Rooney isn’t one of them according to Louis, but he’s captain and he’s undroppable. So there are 3 positions left for him. One is for holding midfielder, second is for Di Maria for obvious reasons. So he’s basically competing with Fellaini and Mata-and he’s losing the battle.
Now I can totally understand why Fellaini is playing in some games. Mata is class but there is a huge difference between him and Herrera- Juan gets his goals because he has great instinct and he finds himself in the box all the time (I’ve been saying this for a long time now, he’s a second striker). Ander always stays at the edge of the box to play some quick short passes and link with teammates.
I think we would be great if we played something like that:
IMO it’s our most balanced team. But yeah, LvG talks about balance a lot but there’s no way he will drop RvP, Falcao and Mata. One can dream though.
*Wilson is no better than RvP/Falcao, but it’s not like any other strikers variant worked for us, and Wilson at least adds pace to our team. We could play Herrera instead of Fellaini with Rooney behind two strikers too.
I’m comparing the Spaniards because I think they are in direct competition for a spot in the team, Fellaini is a different story.
I am actually amazed that Herrera looks quite sharp every time he gets a few minutes, despite not starting any game for 2 months.
Lvg is obsessed about playing 2 strikers. Rooney isn’t one of them according to Louis, but he’s captain and he’s undroppable. So there are 3 positions left for him. One is for holding midfielder, second is for Di Maria for obvious reasons. So he’s basically competing with Fellaini and Mata-and he’s losing the battle.
Now I can totally understand why Fellaini is playing in some games. Mata is class but there is a huge difference between him and Herrera- Juan gets his goals because he has great instinct and he finds himself in the box all the time (I’ve been saying this for a long time now, he’s a second striker). Ander always stays at the edge of the box to play some quick short passes and link with teammates.
I think we would be great if we played something like that:
Blind
Fellaini Di Maria
Herrera
Wilson* Rooney
Fellaini Di Maria
Herrera
Wilson* Rooney
IMO it’s our most balanced team. But yeah, LvG talks about balance a lot but there’s no way he will drop RvP, Falcao and Mata. One can dream though.
*Wilson is no better than RvP/Falcao, but it’s not like any other strikers variant worked for us, and Wilson at least adds pace to our team. We could play Herrera instead of Fellaini with Rooney behind two strikers too.
You would expect Mata to create many chances, considering how much he has played this season (1605 mins). He got 3 assists and 6 goals in all competitions. Herrera has 4 assists and 3 goals in 785mins. Mata gets an assist every 535’ and goal every 267’. Herrera gets an assist every 196’ and goal every 261’. This is just stats on relatively small sample of course, so I wouldn’t rely on that but you can clearly see the difference between their style of play. Not saying Mata is a bad player, but for the team that lacks creativity Herrera should be playing much, much more often than he is now.
I’m comparing the Spaniards because I think they are in direct competition for a spot in the team, Fellaini is a different story.
So is Herrera. I don’t get this idea that Rooney is a better midfielder than him. Rooney has good skillset for a midfielder and maybe he could develop into a very good one but IMO he’s not really interested in this new role van Gaal has designated to him- which is the complete opposite for Ander. Either way, both of them should start for us on regular basis.
I am actually amazed that Herrera looks quite sharp every time he gets a few minutes, despite not starting any game for 2 months.
Do you really believe that it would have made such a significant difference if Herrera had started in the #10 role instead of Mata, Rooney and AdM thus far this season? Because that's the real question here... i pretty much doubt it. I've watched Ander several times at Athletic and i know what he can offer there. There are several things he can do better than Mata on the pitch but both of them feed off the movement their teammates provide. Our forwards are usually in poor form and can't offer much while all our opponents choose to defend in a very narrow shape because they are not afraid of our (F)WBs' crosses. This leaves very little space in the final third for Mata to work with and i believe it would be the same for Herrera. Only Rooney, with his ability to create pockets of space near the opponent's box, has offered more in that position this season.
Now, i never suggested that Rooney is a better midfielder in my post. I mentioned that LvG sees Herrera as a candidate for the position of the CM who will play closer to Carrick/Blind in our midfield. It would suit him better to have a more advanced role but the manager prefers Di Maria there (with Januzaj as his substitute). I don't like Rooney as a CM but i don't believe Herrera is marginally better in that role either, right now. If Rooney was playing there instead of Fabregas or Modric, i would understand what the fuzz is all about. They both don't know the position well, they have very little experience in it. I fully agree with you that Herrera has much more potential to reach that level than anyone else in our squad and i think LvG sees that potential and wants to work with him. Fergie did something similar with Fletcher in the beginning of his career.
What i do know is that LvG is usually quite direct with the players he doesn't rate. A couple of weeks ago we had similar discussions regarding Januzaj's future at the club. Since late December van Gaal has been mentioning that he's not going anywhere and now we see him getting more playing time. I'm quite sure that is the case with Herrera too. I believe we will end the season playing with Blind(Carrick)-Herrera, AdM-Rooney in our midfield but we will look much more composed and faster with the ball.
By that logic, it's not like we are Bayern or Barca to have Iniesta or Schweinsteiger, let alone bench them. The point is, he is a fantastic player that when plays, makes the whole team look a lot easier on the eye. Not to mention the fact he's comfortably better than any player he's fighting with for the position he wants to play in. Like it or not, we are wasting a talent by leaving him to rot on the bench. I'm not sure how anyone can dispute that.
In his last couple of appearances, I've noticed that Herrera has been safer and more cautious in his game than he was in the past. His passing choices aren't as adventurous as they used to be. However, whilst he's made himself less cavalier, he still contributes to the high tempo and good rhythm of our passing. His movement is disciplined yet fluid. He still looks for passes through though not as frequently as he used to. van Gaal's already transforming him for that more disciplined box-to-box role, and I think, in the end, we may be able to accommodate di Maria, Herrera, and an attacking midfielder together with Blind as the holding midfielder.
I have my opinion which one of Herrera and Mata is better- it depends on the setup, but IMO we don’t play formation that suits Mata the most, so I guess you already know who I prefer. But that doesn’t matter that much, what annoys me that there is clear evidence that Herrera brings (in worst case) the same productivity- yet he doesn’t get even half the minutes Mata does. He started 2 games in last 2 months- vs Yeovil (scored a goal) and vs Stoke ( grabbed an assist). I am of the opinion that players should be treated fair- and I don’t think that’s the case right now. Imagine the reaction here if Mata was kept out of the team.
And I don’t think that Mata and Herrera are that similar at all, as I stated before. Neither is a number 10 in my book- Mata is closer to striker, Herrera is closer to a midfielder. Semantics
Yeah that wasn’t directed at you, I just pointed out why Herrera is kept out of the team and why I disagree with LvG decisions. Glad you mentioned Fabregas and Modric- I suspect the reason that Ander isn’t playing much is because he doesn’t fall into the category of superstars who will always play when fit- Rooney, Di Maria, RvP, Mata, Falcao. So basically we’re dealing with something I hoped will not be an issue under van Gaal, and he can talk about the balance as much as he wants. Things are getting better recently, but I am not sure if that’s not a coincidence (Carrick injury forced us to change the setup).
Couldn't agree more. We are all frustrated with the poor quality of our football but we often forget that we are still a work in progress.
@Borys The quote above is what i think of the LvG-Herrera relationship. I believe you're a bit unfair towards LvG with your last comment. His history suggests otherwise. What i meant was we need a player who can play this specific role as good as Fabregas and Modric do at their clubs, not buy the next superstar who becomes available. Herrera has the potential to become such a player and imo he needs good training more than playing 90 minutes week in week out. But to say that he is not quite there yet isn't a hypothesis, it is a fact.
I’m not sure if you understood my point. I never implied Herrera is close to Modric or Fabregas, just that he does a lot of good things for us but isn’t in the “undroppable” names bracket, so he finds himself on the bench more often than he should- in my opinion of course.
Yet that doesn’t stop LvG from playing Rooney in midfield. And call me old-fashioned but it’s easier to mould a natural 24 year old attacking midfielder into a slightly different type of midfielder than a 29 year old striker.
Well that’s why I was happy when we signed him, but it’s pretty clear he is trying to shoehorn star players at the expense of balance, wouldn’t you agree?
I get your point, the only thing we really disagree about Herrera is the impact he can have in the first team right here, right now. I agree more with what mazhar wrote just above. Imo Herrera can become a catalyst in our pressing game and our build up plays but it will take some more time. If we had CL football (and had played a couple more matches in the League Cup) we would have probably seen much more of Ander this season.
The way LvG has treated Wilson and Falcao still makes me hesitant to buy into the "always play the big names" theory. I hope i'm right and you are wrong about this
.Imo Rooney will return to one of his preferred positions (#10 or forward) as soon as Herrera is ready enough to offer exactly what LvG wants from him in that role. It's not uncommon for a manager to "protect" a player (the Januzaj example i mentioned) or "mistreat" him (limited playing time or played out of position) like Sir Alex did with many players. If that's not the case i will be very disappointed. I've watched all the teams LvG has managed during his career and i can't even think that he doesn't rate a player with Herrera's abilities.
As i said in my previous post, i believe we'll end up playing a diamond of Blind(holding CM), AdM & Herrera(box to box) and Rooney with RvP and Mata up front but the team as a whole will look much better on the pitch.
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as a footballer herrera has pretty much been in his prime time. this allows him to look sharp within our current squad which in general are not much in form hence are in lack of pace. i believe that's the main reason why there are so many fellow cafs to moan his missing in plays.
the biggest problem of his game is, so far he played for united, he keeps running out of his position too often. the position he plays is supposed to be a very key position, if not the most single important one, to provide balance for the team play. he is there to fill holes whenever pop up everywhere, so the balance of team play restores.
since the 1st qpr game herrera has only focused in involving himself into the goal scoring process. he has just positioned himself at the edge of the opponent box to force himself into the no 10 role. in the fa cup game against yeovil herrera and rooney played togather in midfield. a natural way perceived would be rooney to take a higher row with herrera to marshal the midfield. turned out it was rooney to keep dropping back to pick up the ball from fletcher and herrera was always found at the edge of the opponent box. and this is not occasional. he doesn't help maintain the balance of team play, on the other hand, his running do amplify our imbalances. i well believe this is the reason why he has been benched for so much games up to now.
everyone here including me want to see him plays more, as he is one of those few lads who are in their would-be prime time under our current squad. but herrera needs to commit himself as a team player. otherwise, he is only ruining his career in united. none of us want to see to concede 5 goals within 30 mins to leicester aka teams again.
flying dutchmen. part of the crew, part of the ship.
the biggest problem of his game is, so far he played for united, he keeps running out of his position too often. the position he plays is supposed to be a very key position, if not the most single important one, to provide balance for the team play. he is there to fill holes whenever pop up everywhere, so the balance of team play restores.
since the 1st qpr game herrera has only focused in involving himself into the goal scoring process. he has just positioned himself at the edge of the opponent box to force himself into the no 10 role. in the fa cup game against yeovil herrera and rooney played togather in midfield. a natural way perceived would be rooney to take a higher row with herrera to marshal the midfield. turned out it was rooney to keep dropping back to pick up the ball from fletcher and herrera was always found at the edge of the opponent box. and this is not occasional. he doesn't help maintain the balance of team play, on the other hand, his running do amplify our imbalances. i well believe this is the reason why he has been benched for so much games up to now.
everyone here including me want to see him plays more, as he is one of those few lads who are in their would-be prime time under our current squad. but herrera needs to commit himself as a team player. otherwise, he is only ruining his career in united. none of us want to see to concede 5 goals within 30 mins to leicester aka teams again.
flying dutchmen. part of the crew, part of the ship.
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