Exactly, how can such a sweet innocent face be a crook. It's all lies I tell you. I just hope he doesn't get a judge who wants a big name to hang out to dry, if he deserves it or not. There will be ones who are far more guilty in this than Ander.Drat.
I'm pretty sure the jury won't indict him as a felon though. Just look at that cherubic face..
21
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 31
- Goals
- 8
- Assists
- 5
- Yellow cards
- 6
- Status
Oh jebus what are you on about ? Did I call him dishonest ?
Just pointing out that stats can be used to offer a differing perspective. It's not my fault you dunno how the total defensive stats are calculated (which BTW are more comprehensive than tackles - which don't put the area of pitch into context or blocks - Ander has played as a #10 in recent weeks so he'll obviously stop a lesser amount of shots duh or aerial duels - which are inflated by long balls from De Gea to velcro's head).
You implied that he's cherry picked stats to suit his argument and that you can do the same to achieve the same results for Herrera. My point is that his choice of stats were a lot more honest than yours especially since 3 of your stats contribute to each other.
Do you know how the defensive score is calculated?
(You must have quoted before I edited from "dishonest" to "that dishonest" which admittedly changes the point a lot so apologies for that)
This should be a separate thread. It's in no way relevant to his performances.
Err.. That statistical argument can be very easily turned on its head mate.
That includes the all important aggregate defensive score.
Yeah, if you specifically select the only defensive criteria where Fellaini isn't superior. Including one ("take ons")which isn't even defensive. That would be absurdly biased though.
How can we define honest stats though ? I could provide an argument for some of those tackling, blocking or aerial duel stats being contextually dishonest too, as stated in the post above.
Fair enough mate. But isn't overall defensive score over an average period of 90 minutes a better indicator than raw tackling or blocking stats ?
I've no idea. Because I've no idea how it's calculated. I can only make sense of stats that I understand.
Ah okay fair enough mate.
They used to have a faq manual detailing the process algorithm I read before but it seems that's been taken down and condensed now. Shame..
@Pogue Mahone what's a take on ?
Take on – Attempted dribble past an opponent.
via http://www.squawka.com/football-stats-definitions
Counted for both attacking and defensive zones.
Thanks
Ah okay fair enough mate.
They used to have a faq manual detailing the process algorithm I read before but it seems that's been taken down and condensed now. Shame..
No big deal. We're on a bit of a tangent anyway. Plus, judging Hererra on defensive stats is unfair and ignores his best qualities. It's my fault for taking issue with someone who said Hererra was better at defending than Fellaini. He's not. But there's a bunch of other stuff he does much better than the Belgian.
I'm not sure that any stats on their own without context are honest and the context you mentioned with regard to goal kicks contributing to the duels won % is a fair one.
+What Pogue said above
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Why is it always one or the other? Why not Fellaini for the physical side and Herrera for the tenacious, creative side? Sorted.
This times a berjillion.
It's funny that some people are comparing Herrera to Fellaini because of the assumption of one's taking other's place (maybe because of one game (Wes Brom)). In other games after that, Herrera was subbed in always for players other than Fellaini.
This is the thing I don't get with the never ending comparison.
Yeah. It's to the extent that on our last game, some people wanted to sub Fellaini for Herrera. Fully known that it would mean we had Rooney/Mata - Herrera as CM with 3 forwards in a big game. It's borderline insane, from team balance perspective.
I think a lot of people get too obsessed with wanting particular players in the team rather than looking at the bigger picture of team balance like you've said.
We all know that Herrera is a very good CM, but just like Kagawa in the past, he needs to make himself irreplaceable. Even Mata, a more proven player than him, is still in and out of the team often.
Can we claim a buyer's refund from Athletic if Ander goes to prison though ? An argument could be made for them deceiving the club and dangling the carrot in front of our faces as a pretext for off-loading him. Maybe Woody should sue them..
I think we paid for his release from his Bilbao contract, there's no refunds there even if we were to play that angle.
That's why we will have to hope things turn out fine for him. Otherwise it is a lot of money lost. Things might not be as serious for him as people think. Depends what is going on in the background and who they are seriously going after.
I hope Zaragoza didn't pay the money into the players accounts and then they withdraw the amount needed.
I don't get people saying he's the next Kagawa, he's already done more than Kagawa did in his two seasons with us.
Because Fellaini is the one that they personally think should be out of the team in favour of Herrera?
The argument can also be used that fellaini is a lot better going forwards, especially as his passing isn't as costly. Its not like Herrera is shir defensively either, he's quite good actually. Though I'd agree that it would probably be too attacking, it would also result in us attacking a lot better and controlling the game more.
I have no doubt that Herrera as a sole DM in big game would be a disaster. We had so many attacking players there, why would we need more if we were playing counter-attack football? Had he ever played as DM before?
As many games have proved, Fellaini has offered something different to the team's balance as LvG wants him to. Those subs have proved that LvG sees Herrera competing with players other than Fellaini.
It is understandable than LvG wants to steady the ship first, after the horrid early season, as we are winning games right now. Thus he tends to use the tried and trusted method by playing the system and players that have been contributing to the recent 'success'.
As it is right now, I personally think that points are more urgent than style, which the later will take time to shape up.
Agree. Its substance over style at mo. Fellaini over Herrera, and at present until other positions are sorted on the pitch, its working. TBH I get the feeling both players should be worried in the longer term cause if we buy a YaYa type of midfielder who's capable of doing a bit of both, makes them both redundant.
I don't doubt that it would be! Just that there is a chance it could work if he was asked to play a more disciplined role. He has played a defensive midfield role before I'm pretty sure though not very often. Where in one sense we'd be worse off in terms of winning the ball back and defending long balls, we would be much better at passing the ball out from the back and moving up the pitch IMO.
I think the pass was on but the windows was a very small one and after that the little space was completely covered by the defender. It would required some pinpoint and fast execution.
Fair enough Fellaini did have an excellent defensive performance on sunday but obviously overall he'll have better stats because he's played more. Could you show me where to find game by game stats mate cus i'm sure Ander's were not too shabby at all and considering that we would potentially have carrick playing holding midfield and possibly a similarly hardworking ADM in our midfield i'm honestly curious as to your take on fellaini over herrera? do you not think that we are far less ponderous and more mobile and penetrative when ander plays? give me your thoughts mate
Stats available on that website I linked to, squawka.com. They're all "per 90 minutes" so it doesn't matter who's played the most.
Re the two of them, as compared to each other, I can only base my opinion on what I've seen this season. I think Fellaini has been better for us so far. Although does seem to be entering a bit of a dip in form, with those two terrible first half performances in a row.
Both obviously have different qualities and I really like Hererra as a footballer but I can totally understand Van Gaal's team selection in recent weeks. Fellaini replaced Hererra at half time against West Brom, played a massive part in turning things round and has been playing well enough to retain his place. Herrera looked like forcing his way into our starting Xi with one great performance off the bench but followed it up with a poor performance and was justifiably dropped. There's loads of competition for places in midfield, right now. Which is great. I'm sure Van Gaal wouldn't have hesitated to drop Fellaini if he hadn't recovered so well from his last two first half disasters. He's probably just about clinging to his place but could easily make way for Hererra soon enough. Which is absolutely fine by me and I'd be delighted if Hererra made himself undroppable the same way Fellaini did with his first few games this season. Here's hoping he does exactly that.
Time for Herrera to step up and cement his place then with Fellaini missing out.
Do you think he'll actually start given what's going on with him?
Yes. He is only a witness, people have played on with much worse things going on in their lives. If anything getting on the pitch will be a welcome distraction.
That's if LVG doesn't put Rooney next to Carrick and Falcao up front of course.
That's what I was thinking might happen. Would like Herrera to play though. Nice to have these sorts of selection headaches given what we have had in the near past (Cleverley!)
Ander in his younger days.
With Fellaini ill i really hope he can show the gaffer why he should be playing week in and week out. I actually think he has the physicality and ball winning skills needed to be a proper number 8. He showed a lot of this in Spain and we saw glimpses here and there in the first couple matches. To have his creativity and passing ability but still have a bit of bite in midfield will be vital for us if he is able to do it. I am hoping to see him rip apart villa tomorrow.
Is Fellaini definitely out?
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