feck's sake. He's a local lad.
Talk about cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
Amir Khan
- Thread starter KeyserSoze
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feck's sake. He's a local lad.
Talk about cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
Shipman was local, I don't like him.
Well done.
People didn't think Bruno was overated, they knew he was limited. But he never gave up, he'd take a shot that shoulda knocked him down, and he'll keep on going. He had pluck, and if there's anything the British love, its pluck
Bruno was black, so if its racists having their moment presumably the reaction should have been similar back then too no?
Bruno was massively overhyped at the beginning of his career. No one celebrated when he was beaten by Bonecrusher and Witherspoon. As for taking knocks, he had a suspect chin. Watch all his fights that he has lost. Most of the time he was well ahead, before taking a lucky punch to the chin.
I think the climate has changed, and unless you've been on one of Neptune's moons for the past few years, you'll have noticed that there's a fair bit of Islamaphobia around. Black footballers certainlly had to put up with racism in the 70's and 80's, though. Barnes used to get abused by his own fans. Times have changed, thankfully.
The only time I can remember calling anyone racist on here, aside from in jest, was in reaction to a proper rant by that RR poster, very funny poster I can't remember his name, but it was a full-on diatribe, it wasn't really open to discussion whether it was racist or not.
Not sure if you want to reply to this, Brad, but for the record I still don't know what you're on about re me "always being the first to jump to racism as the answer"
That's racist.
Probably the only quality Amir Khan did show on Saturday night was pluck. Not many fighters would have managed to try and fight on after having their bell rung that brutally. He was still trying to get up and fight on after the second knock-down too, when his brain was so scrambled he probably thought he was a purple hamster, called Brian.
Bad form to cheer him getting beat. And I don't reckon it would have happened if he was a blue-eyed blonde, no matter how arrogant he was before the fight (not that he was all that arrogant, from what I've read)
They build them up so they can knock 'em down.
Most of the reaction is because hes a knob, however there are plenty of knobs that are idolised by the crowds, you just have to be a good knob. knob what i mean?
He's not a fecking knob. Watch any interview with him, he comes across as a nice lad and, unlike many with the kind of adulation he's had at such a young age, as down-to-earth. He's confident, and rightly so, he's fecking talented. Show me a successful boxer that doesn't have a bit of a swagger.
Plechazunga clearly fancies him.
He gave a live interview on 5 live this evening. Fair play to him he didn't hide like some would.
Your idea of a nice guy might be other peoples idea of a 'fecking knob'. Personally I think he's a decent fella too compared to your average boxer you hear, but confidence can appear as arrogance and that rubs people up the wrong way. When you suddenly find yourself humbled and humiliated, people are gunna mock and rub it in
We've clash on this topic of casual racism before Plech, it was a fairly lengthy discussion revolving around Paul Ince if I recall correctly. Twice there's been good reasons why events transpired without the presence of racism, but twice you've declared casually that racism is the huge and decisive factor, mainly as I see it on the principle that it could be. Its lazy, and I think when you're labelled particular people or a group with such a jibe without evidence, its dangerous
Ixion summed it up perfectly. They build them up so they can knock 'em down
Old big nose is clearly spot on in what he says there. I think Kahn's attitude is good - he's in no way overly cocky, he has enough belief in himself. I also think he's a really good role model for modern British kids.
I hope he takes this defeat and uses it positively, plenty of boxers have come back well from defeat and I hope he does too.
Ah yes, the Ince one. I thought you meant calling other posters racist (in earnest).
My impression from that thread was that you haven't come across much racism in your life, so you're inclined to think there isn't much of it about, that it's largely invented or a "card" to be "played", and that as a young white bloke, in fact it's you who's the victim of inverse racism. In my opinion this view doesn't much accord with reality.
Re Khan, I do agree with you to an extent. One of the least likeable characteristics of British culture is that we resent success and like to see our idols humiliated. No doubt that's partly what's in play with Khan. Also, everyone suddenly gets to play the boxing expert, announcing that they predicted this years ago.
Still, I doubt there would be this sort of glee if it wasn't for the general Islamophobia which is a very real and obvious sentiment at the moment, and far more worrying and "dangerous" than any hypersensitivity to racial prejudice which might or might not exist.
I've suffered very mild racism myself due to my darker than the English norm skin, mainly on football pitches it has to be said. For all the other nationalities I comprise of, I'm 1/4 Indian too. I'm no stranger to it, you hear it in pubs, I had someone make a racist comment in my house last week. While the situation is far better today that in previous decades, there's no doubt racism still exists
However, there's a difference between actual racism, and situations where it could be racism, but it also could be something else. If there's no evidence any racism has taken place, the tar such an accusation carries these days means its simply not on to casually attribute it in the manner I thought you were doing
My ultimate conclusion is the following. In Britain, if a young white self confident lad talked himself up as a future world champion, and got flattened by a previous unknown within seconds of the fight starting, would the public gloat and take the piss? The answer is yes. Some racists might jump on that bandwagon, but I simply don't accept these accusations that the reaction has been widespread racism, there are other explanations that at the very least cast major doubt on the conclusion you and Spoons have taken as given fact
I have to admit I have wanted him to get properly tested, boxed about a bit, and knock some reality into him and everyone else who is hyping him up. I knew he'd get a good smashin' against someone top notch and was waiting for it. This was a bit of a harsh lesson though. That gif!
I wasn't being racist or what have you though because like I'm a British born paki' myself and a (hungry) Muslim at that. It was more to do with the talking up and born out of frustration because a class boxer just doesn't leave himself open like that. Plus of course he has money and I don't, the gimp.
The reaction has surprised me though, suddenly a lot more people are talking about him and are happy he got knocked out. Racism or what have you? Not sure, of course there will be some but I don't know about it being in the majority. There are suspicions of it but you can't be sure. Not sure about the cheering though.
Anyway, he does have a decent attitude overall, even outside in his personal life he's a likeable fella' and you do have to remember he's a young lad with a load of money after all. He will come back from this as he's got a spark about him, has the talent, and certainly doesn't shy away from a fight. He just has to learn a few things and finally mature into a class boxer.
I wasn't being racist or what have you though because like I'm a British born paki' myself and a (hungry) Muslim at that. It was more to do with the talking up and born out of frustration because a class boxer just doesn't leave himself open like that. Plus of course he has money and I don't, the gimp.
The reaction has surprised me though, suddenly a lot more people are talking about him and are happy he got knocked out. Racism or what have you? Not sure, of course there will be some but I don't know about it being in the majority. There are suspicions of it but you can't be sure. Not sure about the cheering though.
Anyway, he does have a decent attitude overall, even outside in his personal life he's a likeable fella' and you do have to remember he's a young lad with a load of money after all. He will come back from this as he's got a spark about him, has the talent, and certainly doesn't shy away from a fight. He just has to learn a few things and finally mature into a class boxer.
If you look at that thread though, I didn't tar anyone specifically with racism, I just said I thought there might be something in what Ferdinand was saying and pointed out that the men who run football are seedy old cnuts, many of whom are probably a bit racist, which is true.
You seem to be under the impression that discussion on here is like a court of law, where any assertion must be presented with proof. (Except that you only seem to think this with regard to allegations of racism.) But it's not a court of law. As peterstorey often points out, it's like a conversation down the pub. All sorts of shit gets spouted. If it seems to me to be a bit of a coincidence that Khan gets pilloried far more than the likes of Hatton or anyone except Harrison, at a time when anti-Muslim feeling is quite obviously rife in this country, then yes, I'll say so in a thread on here, probably with a bit of hyperbole.
What I don't understand, especially given your background, is why you seem to be so much more horrified by unproven allegations of racism than you are by actual racism.
All other races and people are equally inferior to me.
Except for Deco, and the French, who are more inferior
Except for Deco, and the French, who are more inferior
according to les Kershaw, "There are no wingers as such in Brazil they all play a 4-2-2-2 formation. So the full backs have to tear up and down the wings."
----------VDS--------
Rafa-Rio-Vidic-Evra
Rafa-Scholes-Cazza-Evra
Rafa-Ronnie-Rooney-Evra
Rafa-Tevez-Berbatov-Evra
You could probably put Evra on the left and the right, and that would still work.
I don't get why people don't like Kahn. He's not really shown he's got what it takes as yet, but so fecking what? It's not his fault that nearly everyone else is an idiot.
Don't know if it's to do with racism or not. It's gay regardless though
How did we get from this, to discussions about rascism?
Don't see how race has got anything to do with it, he's a young lad with a suspect jaw, thrown in against an opponent who was, for him, one step too far, at this time in his career.
We've had him at our place, and he's a genuinely nice lad.
All his cockyness is orchestrated hype.
Completely agree.
You will no doubt have some idiots who'll have wanted him defeated due to racism. It's not just an English disease mind, his cousin Sajid Mahmood got booed playing for England, by a section of Pakistani fans.
I like Mahmood, he has so much potential as a quick, although I worry that he will never live up to it.
He can bowl 90mph, got all the attributes but for reason won't ever become a top notch fast bowler. I think a lot of it has to do with control.
Because we were trying to find out why a lot of people dislike him so much.
I'm not. I hate actual racism. How did you come to that unfounded and inaccurate conclusion Plech?
But I also hate casual accusations of racism without evidence and when there are other explanitory factors. Accusations you back up with damning revelations like it'd be 'a bit of a coincidence'
And yes, I do think if you're going to accuse someone of racism, you should have some proof, such is the tar and stigma rightly associated with it. Court room or not. Mud sticks, and its precisely places like internet forums that it forms and gestates
An odd comparison to Hatton. I presume you're referring to his Mayweather loss. He's taking on the recognised best boxer in the world at the time, moving up to fight at his natural weight, hurt him in the first round and stuck in there despite being outboxed until the later rounds. Compare this to someone hyped as a future world champion (with talk this fight should have been a shot) who fights an unknown and gets knocked out within seconds of the fight beginning. When fans have paid big prices to attend or purchase Box Office. Its hardly rocket science which fighter will be getting the stick there Plech
I laughed when he got knocked out because of all the "Legend" adverts that had been running on Sky Sports in the build up.
No mention of his opponent on them, just "KHAN!", and apparently once he had brushed aside this worthless opponent, he would join the pantheon of legends.
Might not have been entirely his fault, but it did make it spectacularly amusing when his dodgy defence led to him being knocked out in 30 seconds.
As far as I can tell, this wasn't racially motivated.
No mention of his opponent on them, just "KHAN!", and apparently once he had brushed aside this worthless opponent, he would join the pantheon of legends.
Might not have been entirely his fault, but it did make it spectacularly amusing when his dodgy defence led to him being knocked out in 30 seconds.
As far as I can tell, this wasn't racially motivated.
By the fact that an actual incidence of racism elecits this from you:
Brad said:Plech, here is an example where you can fairly accuse someone of being a racist
It pleases me that his career has gone down the shitter from the days where he and Shevchenko looked the absolute bollocks at Kiev
Whereas Ferdinand suggesting that there might be prejudice at large in the football world elicits a condemnation as "quite disgusting", how you're "frankly sick of having to see the world in 'colour' terms all the time", and the repeated invocation of an impassioned, and vaguely biblical, language of besmirching, sullying, tarring etc.
Well I shall remind you of that next time you go off on one about some celebrity or other, maybe a footballer, or an actress who smokes, or something.
And mud doesn't gestate
Yes there's been a lot of hype but there's always a lot of hype. There was a lot of hype about Hatton, and he bigged himself up like all boxers do, and he got taught a lesson. Khan's no different from any other boxers, yes there was loads of hype but if anything he seems more humble than most.
The reaction was over the top, maybe due to traditional British envy of success, maybe, especially in the current climate that you seem to be wishing away, due to something more sinister. I think the latter, and have no qualms about mentioning that view on a football message-board when it's under discussion. I'd be more circumspect, and look to back up my view with something more tangible than a feeling, if anyone's actual reputation was at threat, but, as with the Ferdinand case, it isn't.
Context perhaps Plech? In the Rebrov thread, everyone was unanimous in their condemnation. I added my voice to the list, I think what I said shows my feelings about his behaviour no? With the Ince (not Ferdinand) thing, that was a debate between two different standpoints, so of course the language is different, and often impassioned. Come on Plech you're a supposedly clever guy, how do you not realise the difference?
Hatton is a two time undefeated light welterweight champion of the world Plech, he lived up to his hype. The difference is Khan hasn't made it yet, and he got found out in headline fashion, knocked out in the first
I dunno about clever but I am quite sensitive to words, I reckon. Over the course of many posts, I think the difference in your tone is clear. You've got a real bee in your bonnet about racial smears and "having to see the world in 'colour' terms the whole time", in a way you don't seem to have about the historically far more pernicious phenomenon of racism.
Not for a moment "tarring" you with accusations of racism btw. My impression though, just from chatting on here, is that you see a general consensus against racism, whereas with reverse racism you feel like you're fighting a lone battle. I remember other posts about positive discrimination, and how as a young white male you felt victimised in some way.
I just think all that's more or less trivial, in comparison to the very real and common and disastrous fact of racism. I agree that false accusations of racism are a bad thing and potentially dangerous, I just don't think they happen very often, not in a way that genuinely damages anyone. For a start, it's pretty humiliating for the person making the allegations, so most of the time even where the racism is real they keep quiet.
OK Hatton's not the best example, but nevertheless the response is surprising. You think it has no connection to the widespread anti-Muslim and anti-Asian feelings that exist in this country, I don't. That's fine. But I could be right - even you must agree with that - and the point is that even if I were, I would have no way of proving it, given that racism these days is generally disguised in very public situations like that. So by your lights, even if it were true, I wouldn't be able to say as much, in a thread on a footie forum that is of no importance to anyone.
I'm with Plech on this one. Stuff like this just allows many Brits to express their, admittedly fairly casual, racism in a way that allows them not to confront the real nature of their spite.
That's the key thing right there Plech. And when you're making an accusation without any evidence that racism has taken place, you fall right into that trap
I don't remember making any comments on here about feeling a victim of positive discrimination? I don't like it though, a good sporting example is the South African cricket team. I appreciate the reasoning, but if the eleven best players in Safrica are white, a black player shouldn't be picked on his colour alone. The disgraceful treatment of Justin Ontong had to suffer is a great example of that
Plechazunga said:
If you've lived in England for longer than 5 minutes Plech, which of course you have, I'm suprised you find the reaction to Khans humiliating defeat suprising! Build em up, knock em down is as good as our national mantra
You've even had several people in this thread already tell you the reasons for their reaction to Khan, and its precisely what me and others have outlined. Yes racists will likely have been racist in their reactions, and we condemn them totally. But that's not what this is about. You're saying racism is the major cause of this reaction, and it palpably isn't
Apologies if it wasn't you. I can't find it so maybe it wasn't. I did however find this, arguing that Ron Atkinson should be allowed back on the box - again implying that getting rid of racism isn't exactly your number one cause. And this - again implying that it's positive discrimination that really gets your goat.
We'll have to agree to disagree. You think I'm missing the context with Khan. I think you're missing the context re the discussion - ie the difference between a conversation down the pub and an editorial on the 9 O'Clock News.