American Politics

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Pointless maybe, but I'll address the last argument that he made, which is that it was somehow unfair to only raise taxes on the top 2%. This raise, first off, is really an expiration of a tax cut, one which massively benefit those at the top of the income ladder. Semantics, maybe, but it's helpful to point out. Second, this is in context of a budget that, if the Democrats get a fair amount of what they want, will probably be in the nature of four dollars in spending cuts for every one in additional revenue.

Mjs has the typical Republican blind spot of only seeing taxation when it comes to perceiving the interaction between citizen and government. I think the rest of us can pretty obviously grasp that spending cuts, which will take the form of things like reduced spending on education and other government services, and cuts to entitlement benefits, is going to disproportionately impact the poor and working class.
 
Excal said:
Pointless maybe, but I'll address the last argument that he made, which is that it was somehow unfair to only raise taxes on the top 2%. This raise, first off, is really an expiration of a tax cut, one which massively benefit those at the top of the income ladder. Semantics, maybe, but it's helpful to point out. Second, this is in context of a budget that, if the Democrats get a fair amount of what they want, will probably be in the nature of four dollars in spending cuts for every one in additional revenue.

Mjs has the typical Republican blind spot of only seeing taxation when it comes to perceiving the interaction between citizen and government. I think the rest of us can pretty obviously grasp that spending cuts, which will take the form of things like reduced spending on education and other government services, and cuts to entitlement benefits, is going to disproportionately impact the poor and working class.
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to play devil's advocate, what if the R's say feck it, if the top 2% have to pay, everyone does and they let the tax cuts expire for everyone and everything goes back to clinton rates.

I'm more and more on the side of howard dean when he says let everything sunset and go off the cliff and then negotiate/re-write the tax code from scratch from a position of power (presidency, and senate majority).
 
VoetbalWizard said:
to play devil's advocate, what if the R's say feck it, if the top 2% have to pay, everyone does and they let the tax cuts expire for everyone and everything goes back to clinton rates.
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The sequester is a better option than an all-cuts budget. Half the cuts come out of defense, and the bigger chunk of the expiring Bush tax cuts go to higher incomes.
 
brad-dyrak said:
I don't reckon mjs was usually anywhere near as bad as you all made him out to be. Just a casual observation here, but many wouldn't hesitate to get ad hominem with him for what seemed like his taking a contrary position. Over time he absorbed a lot more personal insults than seemed warranted to me, and he rarely seemed to throw them back. It rather smacked of an intolerance. There was an intimation that he wasn't what he claimed to be, but how would people know that?

Anyway, just an observation. Sounds like he just got fed up and threw a strop at the end.
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we come on here and say what we think. If we cannot do that it is pointless to have any discussion at all. None of us is right all the time of course. Its about honesty. he was dishonest. simple.

He left cause his 'team' got their ass whopped and he could not take it.
 
VoetbalWizard said:
if i'm not mistaken, mjs lives in a redneck part of florida right? not south miami beach.

I think he's brainwashed by the bubbas and billybobs that live there.
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From the times I've visited the Tampa/St Pete are it is definitely not redneck. At least not in how one would envision Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi, et al. It had a very diverse culture and seems to be a haven for old retirees and immigrants.
 
Eboue said:
Yeah I remember that. If it is done right, someone playing a devil's advocate can a lot to the discussion. I don't think mjs was smart enough to pull it off. But what I was saying is that he wasn't a bad poster either. I think he got some undeserved stick from a group of posters on here that seemed to follow him around.

I didn't see this till after but if he posted porn then there's no arguing with the decision.
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Exactly. I even like the notion of a devil's advocate, if like you say, it's done right. I'm sure we all do it with ourselves when mulling over an issue, and I find making a habit of it helps diffuse a lot of that inevitable "us vs. them" I get stuck in.

Still not so sure why some are so certain he is hard core right wing. At some point, especially when all we've got is text, you sort of have to take someone at their word, and he professed to being left of US center. He'd veer left (health care) and right (gun control) of center. Still can't say I agreed with a lot of it, but that' neither here nor there.

Anyway, done with all that. I hope whatever he posted didn't upset Google.
 
Nobody knew what he was in the end other than a gay midget bondage porn lover....obviously a republican then.
 
It's tricky isn't it? I'm not even clear of just what's off the table for automatic sequestration, aside from social security and some defense stuff. With that not factored in, and the budget disparity not yet known, does anyone know how big would the hit would be? I really don't.

I bet one of you that's more up on these things has a pretty good idea though...
 
I have to say, while Americans are generally crazy, I rather enjoy their politics. Political pundits over there are more biased, but they are largely more informed than the ones we get here. I mean, very rarely do we ever get any serious discussion about important constitutional issues here (and no, the House of Lords is not an important constitutional issue) like they do in the U.S - I doubt many people in the UK could name a single sitting Supreme Court justice. Whereas in the US you get regular discussions about judicial and legislative processes.

Americans are usually thought of as quite dumb, but I think news stations here have dumbed themselves down quite significantly.
 
brad-dyrak said:
Exactly. I even like the notion of a devil's advocate, if like you say, it's done right. I'm sure we all do it with ourselves when mulling over an issue, and I find making a habit of it helps diffuse a lot of that inevitable "us vs. them" I get stuck in.

Still not so sure why some are so certain he is hard core right wing. At some point, especially when all we've got is text, you sort of have to take someone at their word, and he professed to being left of US center. He'd veer left (health care) and right (gun control) of center. Still can't say I agreed with a lot of it, but that' neither here nor there.

Anyway, done with all that. I hope whatever he posted didn't upset Google.
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I have to disagree on the devil's advocate. I'm not here to debate positions, I'm here to debate people. If someone admits to playing the devil's advocate, that by definition means they aren't arguing the positions they themselves favour, so how could they possibly adequately debate it? For one thing, it means they could never admit to being wrong, since they in all likelihood knew they were wrong before they even said.

And the reason he is figured to be quite right-wing is the reason he's been acting. He might say he'd vote for the democrats, and that he's left of centre, but it's telling that his meltdown came in the wake of a landslide Obama victory, and he took the opportunity to call someone a socialist cocksucker.
 
niMic said:
I have to disagree on the devil's advocate. I'm not here to debate positions, I'm here to debate people. If someone admits to playing the devil's advocate, that by definition means they aren't arguing the positions they themselves favour, so how could they possibly adequately debate it? For one thing, it means they could never admit to being wrong, since they in all likelihood knew they were wrong before they even said.

And the reason he is figured to be quite right-wing is the reason he's been acting. He might say he'd vote for the democrats, and that he's left of centre, but it's telling that his meltdown came in the wake of a landslide Obama victory, and he took the opportunity to call someone a socialist cocksucker.
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Understood on the devil's advocate thing. Your people vs positions puts it well. I guess in many cases I'm more interested in debating the positions, at least for those that I don't feel certain on (and that encompasses a lot). There are too many issues (plenty of them political) I don't feel I've reached a level of certainty on that I'm comfortable with. For those, I expect I might take a purposefully contrary position on, especially given that for the most part we all seem to be of the same mind. Not to WUM or create rancor, but to get some answers and to explore the issue a bit more. Perhaps MJS did it as a WUM, but it didn't usually seem like it to me. Anyway, I have probably done this in the past, though I would certainly preface it with a "Yeah, but what if...". Rednev did this nicely just the other day speaking to the abortion debate.

I wouldn't have read too much into the timing of the meltdown. Back in the Travon Martin debate I remember being surprised he didn't give up on that with some of the abuse he got.

Honestly I'm not really comfortable talking about him as I didn't know the guy and it just feels weird talking about it. I guess I just don't see what some of you saw in him. My observations on it are very casual, but the vitriol he received frequently startled me. I'll leave it at that and back away amicably.

Now somebody explain the details of the sequestration for us...
 
MikeUpNorth said:
It's a massive dose of austerity which will likely tank the economy.
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Think it was Howard Dean who was saying that the sequestration is the least worst option for liberals given what the republicans and corporatist dems are likely to agree to in order to protect defence spending and tax rates.
 
Andrew~ said:
I have to say, while Americans are generally crazy, I rather enjoy their politics. Political pundits over there are more biased, but they are largely more informed than the ones we get here. I mean, very rarely do we ever get any serious discussion about important constitutional issues here (and no, the House of Lords is not an important constitutional issue) like they do in the U.S - I doubt many people in the UK could name a single sitting Supreme Court justice. Whereas in the US you get regular discussions about judicial and legislative processes.

Americans are usually thought of as quite dumb, but I think news stations here have dumbed themselves down quite significantly.
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There's been quite a lot of discussion about the European vs Home Rule balance. And a lot of discussion on Scottish Independence. And on Electoral Reform. And, yes, on the House of Lords reform and boundary changes. These are all important constitutional issues.
 
Drainy said:
Think it was Howard Dean who was saying that the sequestration is the least worst option for liberals given what the republicans and corporatist dems are likely to agree to in order to protect defence spending and tax rates.
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Now isn't really the time to be cutting spending, defence or otherwise, while trying to get the economy going again. Any tax rises should be limited and modest for the same reason.
 
You'd think the tea partiers would actually want sequestration to occur. Boner and co. will have a fight on their hands because they need to keep their defence company donors in the money.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Now isn't really the time to be cutting spending, defence or otherwise, while trying to get the economy going again. Any tax rises should be limited and modest for the same reason.
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I'd be fine with still hitting those highest few percentile a lick, the assumption being that it's just going to be more cash they're squirreling away. I just read Robert Reich's book "Beyond Outrage". I don't generally like reading books on contemporary politics that I know I'll agree with, but he does make that point quite well.
 
I just read that my congressman, Dan Lungren, has lost his seat. I voted for Ami Bera so am hopeful that he can do some good.
 
So glad that he got fecked over by redistricting.

I'd like to see a citizen's commission doing this on a national scale.
 
Grinner said:
So glad that he got fecked over by redistricting.

I'd like to see a citizen's commission doing this on a national scale.
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The Dems need to study the seats they lost marginally and get the same GOTV strategy of 2012 for 2014..so we can take back the house.

they have money....we have more registered voters. We will have even more in two years.

GOTV.
 
Red Dreams said:
notice how the Republicans all get concerned about defecits...when the Democrats arein power? Thats cause the Republicans are the ones who are increasing the debt when they are in power.

Obama has to raise the taxes on the rich..and spend on jobs.
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This is basically my position.

MikeUpNorth said:
Now isn't really the time to be cutting spending, defence or otherwise, while trying to get the economy going again. Any tax rises should be limited and modest for the same reason.
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Let's all laugh at Allen West.

Huge_smiley_with_tongue_out.gif
 
MikeUpNorth said:
There's been quite a lot of discussion about the European vs Home Rule balance. And a lot of discussion on Scottish Independence. And on Electoral Reform. And, yes, on the House of Lords reform and boundary changes. These are all important constitutional issues.
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You're right that these are all constitutional matters, but for the most part, the coverage doesn't center around the issue itself, but rather how political processes. Very few people fully understand the relationship between the EU and Parliament, and all I ever see is nonsense about cutting the EU budget etc etc... Or Scottish independence for that matter.

I probably went too far to say they aren't covered at all, but the coverage is a little... shallow.
 
I think they still have civics classes here in American high schools. I don't remember anything similar in GB.
 
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