So... England's Rio Ferdinand... ( 
)
)All Time World Cup Draft - Pol vs Aldo
- Thread starter Theon
- Start date
I agree with the rest as well but the bolded part is my main concern. An all-time draft of course hand-picks the most complete players in history and those were very often great on the ball which meant they wanted it a lot.
But also what I mean is that someone like Ronaldo, a complete striker, wouldn't at all be interested in always giving Maradona the ball. Many of the times he would instead just run against the goal and try to dribble/set up his striking partner or someone behind the line.
I don't see Maradona being too good in a side that works too direct - unless he is of course played as a second striker then he would be brilliant in that role too. I just haven't seen him ever played as a second striker in these drafts.
And he should, a striker is there to score goals, not faff around trying to concoct something even more jaw-dropping. That's covered by my later point, for "creative overexcitement" (think Arsenal when they would shit on everyone but just kept tryign to pass their way into the goal) it takes two to tango.
That would be Maradona 82, 86 vintage was better, that's why!
Went for Pol in the end. My reasons have pretty much been covered eloquently by others already, but I'll elaborate a little bit shortly.
This is compelling.
Now, the thing - perhaps the main thing here - is that Gentile's ability to deal with Maradona is vital to the manager's tactics (as stated explicitly by himself). And that's a masterstroke if the match-up is Gentile versus Maradona '82. But as we all know - it ain't. Gentile won't contain Maradona '86. Not like this.
What you'd want here - and I know this is very unrealistic, given the nature of the draft and the rules - is an actual catenaccio defense, where Gentile takes Burgnich's role and the latter is replaced by another (cynical!) defender:
This is a very tight match, though. The Romario versus Rio issue is eye-catching. And I have a feeling I've almost managed to underestimate none other than Garrincha here! Which is crazy, of course. But all things said and done I have to give this one to Maradona, as it were.
Not you - a number of people hae said that! Point I'm trying to make is Boniek can't do two sides at once, thus one FB will almost always be free. I'm just saying that FB on the other side of the pitch can't be ignored
Actually...you don't have to replace Burgnich in my suggestion above at all. He can obviously play as Def 3. Kind of undermines my initial point. But you'd have to - from a managerial viewpoint - make less out of the Gentile versus Maradona angle. You could even let Burgnich deal with Maradona:
Pele on Burgnich.
But they key would be to use him as a catenaccio style defender - not as a fullback in a more general sense.
Pele on Burgnich.
But they key would be to use him as a catenaccio style defender - not as a fullback in a more general sense.
You are absolutely right that Lizarazu would then be free to tuck in. If what you are getting at is Scirea then covers Gentile (instead of Burgnich who takes Boniek), that's a fair point, except for Lizarazu not being as fitting passing for Scirea at LCB as Burgnich for Gentile at RCB.
It is still a very valid point nonetheless, it's not a case of the entire "release Gentile" mechanism falling apart completely or being as flawed as I thought to begin with.
when I wrote "release Gentile" this came to mind immediately. Shit at photoshop so won't even try. Any takers to knock something up?
I wasn't quite getting your point TBH as your suggestion looked like precisely what Aldo had. Burgnich IS catenaccio personified. If you say catenaccio defence, historically, the first thing that comes to my mind is Grande Inter, with Facchetti as an attacking leftback and Burgnich at RB, but every bit the nasty motherfecker you were describing as Gentiles ideal partner. He was never a fullback in the more general sense, not that I'm aware of. Gentile at RB in 82 was effectively playing "the Burgnich role" IMO.
My attempt with Stiles for Aldo's team...
views? A 4-2-3-1 with Stiles and Danilo controlling from the deep, hardworking Ballack as AM flanked Kempes and Garricha supplying Romario.
Stiles can do the Eusebio job on Maradona taking away the biggest threat, leaving more room for Scirea/Gentile to counter Bonieck. It will also serve as a useful conduit through Ballack to the strike force.
views? A 4-2-3-1 with Stiles and Danilo controlling from the deep, hardworking Ballack as AM flanked Kempes and Garricha supplying Romario.
Stiles can do the Eusebio job on Maradona taking away the biggest threat, leaving more room for Scirea/Gentile to counter Bonieck. It will also serve as a useful conduit through Ballack to the strike force.
I am referring to other drafts by the way. My point was not that he should be played in a second striker role in these drafts just that for him to really click with a complete forward like Ronaldo that is the only place I'd like to see him myself.
Otherwise he would often see himself bypassed which of course is the opposite of what you want with Maradona in the team.
My attempt with Stiles for Aldo's team...
views? A 4-2-3-1 with Stiles and Danilo controlling from the deep, hardworking Ballack as AM flanked Kempes and Garricha supplying Romario.
This is a so much better working team and like I stated earlier Ballack has the ability to maybe even shine brighter in such a straight box-to-box role. He wasn't one to rely on possession or tiki-taka in the middle he was happy to see a long-ball then use his work-rate and stamina to tear midfields apart by forcing them to get engaged in this tiring role as well to defend against him.
My attempt with Stiles for Aldo's team...
views? A 4-2-3-1 with Stiles and Danilo controlling from the deep, hardworking Ballack as AM flanked Kempes and Garricha supplying Romario.
I'm pretty sure I would have voted for that.
I could see the logic for Hidegkuti, but I see Stiles also releasing Danilo from shielding the defence (a job I frankly don't believe he was up to). Ballack is no Hidegkuti and won't play the balls that Romario would thrive in, but he would be a handful in his own way.
I know - I made a mess of my point, didn't I? My first reaction to this defense - as I posted yesterday - was precisely that is has a catenaccio feel. What I really tried to say here is that you need to make the most of just this: Focus on the general tightness of the defense rather than on Gentile versus Maradona (because that isn't convincing when we're dealing with Maradona '86).
In all drafts peak form is the basis for picking, this is actually the only one which may result in "different peaks", but not for Diego.
Agreed.
You know what's criminal now I think of it? Aldo going out when Facchetti is available. feck me, I would be pissed.
I don't disagree at all. Just saying I think I prefer a second striker Maradona if he is forced to play with forwards who will carry the ball at their feet with explosive pace. As otherwise it bypasses "in-prime" Maradona who has a slower build-up and game in general.
Of course like I started off saying I wouldn't want to see Maradona at all with this sort of player as he is then not at his best.
Damn...there's a thought. And here I voted against him, Maradona fanboy that I am...I feel ashamed now.
You are absolutely right that Lizarazu would then be free to tuck in. If what you are getting at is Scirea then covers Gentile (instead of Burgnich who takes Boniek), that's a fair point, except for Lizarazu not being as fitting passing for Scirea at LCB as Burgnich for Gentile at RCB.
It is still a very valid point nonetheless, it's not a case of the entire "release Gentile" mechanism falling apart completely or being as flawed as I thought to begin with.
This is what you want to unleash:
Maybe not. Read this article for quotes from Gentile.
http://www.goal.com/en/news/1716/ch...iego-maradona-destroyer-claudio-gentile-tells
He thinks that is the only way to control Maradona, that is to put a man marker on him. No team did that in 86, leading to unshackled greatness! He feels that zone marking or cutting off avenues won't work against players like that. I tend to agree. Genius always finds a way through gaps.
I'm a firm believer in mark-marking myself - when the player is instrumental enough to warrant it and the man-marker is actually good enough. But I don't think Gentile would handle Maradona '86 like he handled the '82 counterpart - that's the main point. Secondly, Gentile isn't even set up as a pure man-marker here - nor is the system as such ideal for it. If I were to man-mark Maradona out of this match, I'd go for a set-up with a spare DM - and let him stay on Maradona: A pure marking job. It's too dangerous to let one of your CBs do a man-marking job in a match like this - because the threat from the other attackers is so considerable. You could perhaps do it facing Argentina '86 - but this team features much more dangerous side-kicks for Diego than the likes of Burruchaga and Valdano.
That's a very simplistic way of looking at things by Gentile and even then it's not true. Maradona was man-marked in '86. He was certainly marked by Matthäus in the final and I could've sworn he was man-marked by Bergomi v Italy.
Didn't Gerets also mark him in the semi final vs Belgium? Germany used Matthäus in the first half and then Karlheinz Förster in the second with a clear manmarking job.
Aye - Beckenbauer had him assigned to Maradona in the final. That's the sort of marking I'd go for too - if I wanted to go down that route: Sacrifice a midfielder to take care of him (or try to, at least). But to sacrifice any player when you're up against a fantasy team like this one, will be risky enough.
Yeah Matthaus did a reasonable job man-marking Maradona in the final. Forster took over during the second half as the West Germans chased the game, freeing up Matthaus to help pull the scores level. Maradona still dominated the last ten minutes of the final, setting up the winner and ripping the West German defence to bits.
Damn, went to bed leading 10-5, to take a 12-2 hammering overnight!
I would have switched to that had I been online during the turnaround.
Oh well, well played, Pol. Good luck for the rest of the draft.
I would have switched to that had I been online during the turnaround.
Oh well, well played, Pol. Good luck for the rest of the draft.
Was gonna say just this. Lost because you were away and didn't see everybody starting to go on about that formation and how brilliant it would have been. Sour loss to be honest and you deserved a better finish after your great start.
Anyway 1 hour is left, not hoping much but still @Theon can you update the OP with this formation? Thanks
I share the sentiment, absolutely.
Yay! one vote!
4 more, lads.
4 more, lads.
Updated Aldo
feck, not just missing out on Diego but Boniek would have been a great backup for flexibility with both my wingers being pre-74.
I can't get a break, can I?
I can't get a break, can I?
The game shall be referred in the Draft Folklore as The Sleeping Disaster.
Crazy really
Pol is going to take some beating here - specifically Diego.. He's just worth so much in this draft
Pol is going to take some beating here - specifically Diego.. He's just worth so much in this draft
Gave Aldo my vote in the end. Was really torn between both and might have not voted at all, if the poll wasn't that clear in favour of Pol.
It looks like I'm one of the few who liked his starting formation more than the final one. I prefer Ballack in the 06 role, he was a brilliant matchwinner for us in 02, no doubt, but his skillset was always more that of a box 2 box midfielder than that of an AM. We played our by far best football in 02 in the final without him and I can't see him being much of use in this game in the AM role, while the danger of Maradona isn't really significantly better contained, imo.
I also don't rate Ocwirk that highly. I know his reputation but what I've seen from him in the semifinal against us and in extended highlights of the quarterfinal against Switzerland in '54 didn't convince me that he would have a real impact in this game. I like Aldo's attack a lot and I can see them causing quite a few problems with Romario being clinical with one of the few chances he gets and maybe Garrincha adding something special to turn the game in his favour.
It's really close, great game and really unlucky for Aldo to be drawn against Pol in the first round, quality team, no doubt.
It looks like I'm one of the few who liked his starting formation more than the final one. I prefer Ballack in the 06 role, he was a brilliant matchwinner for us in 02, no doubt, but his skillset was always more that of a box 2 box midfielder than that of an AM. We played our by far best football in 02 in the final without him and I can't see him being much of use in this game in the AM role, while the danger of Maradona isn't really significantly better contained, imo.
I also don't rate Ocwirk that highly. I know his reputation but what I've seen from him in the semifinal against us and in extended highlights of the quarterfinal against Switzerland in '54 didn't convince me that he would have a real impact in this game. I like Aldo's attack a lot and I can see them causing quite a few problems with Romario being clinical with one of the few chances he gets and maybe Garrincha adding something special to turn the game in his favour.
It's really close, great game and really unlucky for Aldo to be drawn against Pol in the first round, quality team, no doubt.
Pathetic. You are gonna take Mane. I think that's what you always wanted infact. Not to mention Hidegkuti