All Time World Cup Draft - Pol vs Aldo

[Moby]

Bewildering, when the midfield control to supply his frontline is fully in my hands, voters are having me sinking like a ship....some explanation would help

To be honest I don't think the attack will be completely starved of the service. You may have more bodies in midfield but I still have top notch passers from the back to the front, starting from Scirea himself. All are technically brilliant and can take the ball out even when being closed down well. Moreover both Garrincha and Kempes would drop back to midfield when we don't have the ball and can collect it and build it up from there nicely, or Garrincha who can dribble past the entire defense or a crowd of players and create chances.

Also, as I have pointed out before this is England Rio, while good, he won't be able to keep out a prime Romario the whole game. Remember, it required a historic performance from Baresi to achieve that, so it is not an easy task. With the team filled with excellent passers, dribblers out wide and a magician of a number 10 who possesses the vision that was the heartbeat of one of the most entertaining and free scoring teams seen in the WC, Romario would still get quite a number of good chances. Kempes scored 6 goals in the World Cup himself, I doubt he had such gifted playmakers and dribblers around him when he did.

These team is not just gifted technically but also wouldn't stand and watch in a scenario when you are in control. The team is made of players who stood up and lifted up the rest of the team through sheer will and determination, like Ballack. Garrincha defended the World Cup in the absence of a player like Pele, which was a huge loss to them and did it single handedly. So I doubt that throughout the 90 minutes there will be no service to the front men given the technical ability as well the mental toughness in the team.

 

[Polaroid]

To be honest I don't think the attack will be completely starved of the service. You may have more bodies in midfield but I still have top notch passers from the back to the front, starting from Scirea himself. All are technically brilliant and can take the ball out even when being closed down well. Moreover both Garrincha and Kempes would drop back to midfield when we don't have the ball and can collect it and build it up from there nicely, or Garrincha who can dribble past the entire defense or a crowd of players and create chances.

Also, as I have pointed out before this is England Rio, while good, he won't be able to keep out a prime Romario the whole game. Remember, it required a historic performance from Baresi to achieve that, so it is not an easy task. With the team filled with excellent passers, dribblers out wide and a magician of a number 10 who possesses the vision that was the heartbeat of one of the most entertaining and free scoring teams seen in the WC, Romario would still get quite a number of good chances. Kempes scored 6 goals in the World Cup himself, I doubt he had such gifted playmakers and dribblers around him when he did.

These team is not just gifted technically but also wouldn't stand and watch in a scenario when you are in control. The team is made of players who stood up and lifted up the rest of the team through sheer will and determination, like Ballack. Garrincha defended the World Cup in the absence of a player like Pele, which was a huge loss to them and did it single handedly. So I doubt that throughout the 90 minutes there will be no service to the front men given the technical ability as well the mental toughness in the team.

I rate your frontline Aldo, I really do. But I am also surprised at your decision to omit Stiles, however you do seem to be getting away with what is an unbalanced and relatively lightweight midfield against two Golden Ball winners (Maradona, Zizinho) and two WC All-Stars (Ocwirk, Zito) who ranked among the greatest midfielders their nations have ever produced. And there is Boniek too who pops up everywhere like a bunny out of the magic hat.

Baresi had to play out of his skin because Brazil's midfield had the ascendancy over Italy's. Ours is the opposite - my dominance in midfield will help the supply to Boniek and Careca, whilst strangulating that to your frontline. And do not forget Maldini. It does not take the full time attention of BOTH Maldini and Breitner to Garrincha when I am the one controlling possession in the middle. Outstanding as your frontline is, you can only do damage when you have the ball.

 

[Moby]

I rate your frontline Aldo, I really do. But I am also surprised at your decision to omit Stiles, however you do seem to be getting away with what is an unbalanced and relatively lightweight midfield against two Golden Ball winners and two WC All-Stars who ranked among the greatest midfielders their nations have ever produced.

Baresi had to play out of his skin because Brazil's midfield had the ascendancy over Italy's. Your team is the opposite - my dominance in midfield will help the supply to Boniek and Careca, whilst strangulating that to your frontline. And do not forget Maldini. It does not take the full time attention of BOTH Maldini and Breitner to Garrincha when I am the one controlling possession in the middle. Outstanding as your frontline is, you can only do damage when you have the ball.

I wouldn't say it is lightweight, that is a loose term for a midfield comprised of one of the best defensive midfielders of his time and a complete animal in Ballack. I understand where you are coming from with Stiles, yes that would have made it better defensively but also would have taken away Hidegkuti which meant all my attack would have depended largely on Garrincha in terms of creating chances. With the Hungarian, it would be extremely tough to cut off the supply to the front men as there are two genuine creative outlets one of which could not be stopped with lines of men in front of him.

Hence, I opted with the more attacking choice. The same reason why since the beginning I have said that my way to win would be outscoring you, not shutting your team down and nicking one to win. You cannot do that against Maradona, even if I had played Stiles, he would still make his presence count so IMO a better strategy is to add a proper playmaker in the middle who can instantly create chances.

With respect to Breitner and Maldini, as good as the German was and I rate him massively, we are talking about Garrincha at his absolute peak, and he is worshipped in his country based on what he did in those games and it was simply of another level. I don't believe there exists a defender who can keep him quiet for 90 minutes alone, that's just how highly I rate his performances in that World Cup. Like I said for Maradona, you can try but these two will definitely leave their mark in any game as long as they are considered by their peak WC form. Hence, Maldini IMO would surely need to help at most times IF you wish to genuinely curb his impact, otherwise it would be a huge gamble and beating one man was never a trouble for the Brazilian. With Kempes and Romario waiting to pounce, I wouldn't take that chance if I were you.

Rio Ferdinand is going to have a tough game as he is against Romario and Kempes who would push forward cutting in and take on the CBs.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The more I think about it the more certain I become that this is a 1-0 match. But who edges it? It's a superior midfield shutting off the supply to a fantastic trio of attackers versus a superior backline holding their own against Diego Maradona and the roaming duo of Boniek and Zizinho - with Careca up there to possibly finish the whole thing off. Grand stuff. I'm going to have to sleep on this one.

 

[Moby]

The more I think about it the more certain I become that this is a 1-0 match. But who edges it? It's a superior midfield shutting off the supply to a fantastic trio of attackers versus a superior backline holding their own against Diego Maradona and the roaming duo of Boniek and Zizinho - with Careca up there to possibly finish the whole thing off. Grand stuff. I'm going to have to sleep on this one.

Like I just said I think shutting off the supply is going too far. Kempes will help out gladly in the midfield battle, he's just like a peak Rooney was, without the ball he was all over the park as he had the pace, stamina and the determination to do that, so does Kempes. And instantly he would become the driving force going forward when we get the ball, with his great link up play. That's one aspect of the midfield battle, we cannot undermine Ballack who has two brilliant World Cups to boot, and very rarely in his career let a midfield overrun him.

That would surely ensure that even if Pol edges it due to more bodies out there, it wouldn't be completely one sided. We can talk about shutting down service if there is one man doing the playmaking, not here when you not only have Garrincha dropping deep, collecting the ball and dribbling forward, or not just Kempes getting involved in the game the whole time and taking it forward while the others break or not just Hidegkuti who had insane off the ball movement which led to dragging defenders around and always having enough time to put in a sublime pass, but also Danilo who regularly provided service to that 1950 attack of Zizinho, Jair and Ademir which made them huge favourites for the tournament and allowed them to blaze past teams, and also Scirea who could very comfortable put in an accurate long ball from deep and was renowned for his ability on the ball in general.

The route to Romario or Kempes who would likely do most of the scoring has plenty of options. Hence, I strongly believe that shutting down is simply too big a task here.

 

[Polaroid]

I wouldn't say it is lightweight, that is a loose term for a midfield comprised of one of the best defensive midfielders of his time and a complete animal in Ballack. I understand where you are coming from with Stiles, yes that would have made it better defensively but also would have taken away Hidegkuti which meant all my attack would have depended largely on Garrincha in terms of creating chances. With the Hungarian, it would be extremely tough to cut off the supply to the front men as there are two genuine creative outlets one of which could not be stopped with lines of men in front of him.

Hence, I opted with the more attacking choice. The same reason why since the beginning I have said that my way to win would be outscoring you, not shutting your team down and nicking one to win. You cannot do that against Maradona, even if I had played Stiles, he would still make his presence count so IMO a better strategy is to add a proper playmaker in the middle who can instantly create chances.

With respect to Breitner and Maldini, as good as the German was and I rate him massively, we are talking about Garrincha at his absolute peak, and he is worshipped in his country based on what he did in those games and it was simply of another level. I don't believe there exists a defender who can keep him quiet for 90 minutes alone, that's just how highly I rate his performances in that World Cup. Like I said for Maradona, you can try but these two will definitely leave their mark in any game as long as they are considered by their peak WC form. Hence, Maldini IMO would surely need to help at most times IF you wish to genuinely curb his impact, otherwise it would be a huge gamble and beating one man was never a trouble for the Brazilian. With Kempes and Romario waiting to pounce, I wouldn't take that chance if I were you.

Rio Ferdinand is going to have a tough game as he is against Romario and Kempes who would push forward cutting in and take on the CBs.

Hidegkuti is a pioneer of the false nine, whose movement was a key feature of his game. By putting Romario ahead of him, you do not have the same kind of movement. It is not about putting two outstanding indviduals together but understanding how their dynamics will interact and play out.

So people reckon that just Gentile 82 alone, and drawn out into midfield, will suffice to counter Maradona at his absolute peak 86 whereas BOTH Maldini and Breitner are needed for Garrincha?

Cohen was a WC All-Star who faced the best of 66 and was rated by George Best as the best he had ever faced. He can contain Kempes.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Like I just said I think shutting off the supply is going too far. Kempes will help out gladly in the midfield battle, he's just like a peak Rooney was, without the ball he was all over the park as he had the pace, stamina and the determination to do that, so does Kempes. And instantly he would become the driving force going forward when we get the ball, with his great link up play. That's one aspect of the midfield battle, we cannot undermine Ballack who has two brilliant World Cups to boot, and very rarely in his career let a midfield overrun him.

That would surely ensure that even if Pol edges it due to more bodies out there, it wouldn't be completely one sided. We can talk about shutting down service if there is one man doing the playmaking, not here when you not only have Garrincha dropping deep, collecting the ball and dribbling forward, or not just Kempes getting involved in the game the whole time and taking it forward while the others break or not just Hidegkuti who had insane off the ball movement which led to dragging defenders around and always having enough time to put in a sublime pass, but also Danilo who regularly provided service to that 1950 attack of Zizinho, Jair and Ademir which made them huge favourites for the tournament and allowed them to blaze past teams, and also Scirea who could very comfortable put in an accurate long ball from deep and was renowned for his ability on the ball in general.

The route to Romario or Kempes who would likely do most of the scoring has plenty of options. Hence, I strongly believe that shutting down is simply too big a task here.

These are very fair points - no doubt - and I'm not saying this will be one-sided: not at all. What I'm saying is that the key here is the midfield battle - and the battle between your defense and Maradona. Something will give both here and there - it's impossible to shut off the supply completely, just as I believe it's impossible to contain Maradona completely. It's a matter of degrees - which of these battles will be won (or lost) to the largest degree?

And I don't have an answer for you - like I said, this is very close.

 

[Polaroid]

Like I just said I think shutting off the supply is going too far. Kempes will help out gladly in the midfield battle, he's just like a peak Rooney was, without the ball he was all over the park as he had the pace, stamina and the determination to do that, so does Kempes. And instantly he would become the driving force going forward when we get the ball, with his great link up play. That's one aspect of the midfield battle, we cannot undermine Ballack who has two brilliant World Cups to boot, and very rarely in his career let a midfield overrun him.

That would surely ensure that even if Pol edges it due to more bodies out there, it wouldn't be completely one sided. We can talk about shutting down service if there is one man doing the playmaking, not here when you not only have Garrincha dropping deep, collecting the ball and dribbling forward, or not just Kempes getting involved in the game the whole time and taking it forward while the others break or not just Hidegkuti who had insane off the ball movement which led to dragging defenders around and always having enough time to put in a sublime pass, but also Danilo who regularly provided service to that 1950 attack of Zizinho, Jair and Ademir which made them huge favourites for the tournament and allowed them to blaze past teams, and also Scirea who could very comfortable put in an accurate long ball from deep and was renowned for his ability on the ball in general.

The route to Romario or Kempes who would likely do most of the scoring has plenty of options. Hence, I strongly believe that shutting down is simply too big a task here.

For your Kempes dropping into midfield, I have Boniek, only better.

It is not just bodies where I have the edge, but more importantly balance and quality.

As I said in post above, putting Romario upfront sacrifices part of Hidegkuti's game.

Your instruction to ask Garrincha to drop deep into midfield can only backfire. You are taking away what he is best at and asking him to get stuck into the midfield battle because your midfield three has fallen short there.

Danilo is very good on the ball but much less so without it. In your setup, he does not have the ball-winners like he had for Brazil.
Where is your defensive shield when you are facing Maradona?

 

[Moby]

Hidegkuti is a pioneer of the false nine, whose movement was a key feature of his game. By putting Romario ahead of him, you do not have the same kind of movement. It is not about putting two outstanding indviduals together but understanding how their dynamics will interact and play out.

So people reckon that just Gentile 82 alone, and drawn out into midfield, will suffice to counter Maradona at his absolute peak 86 whereas BOTH Maldini and Breitner are needed for Garrincha?

Cohen was a WC All-Star who faced the best of 66 and was rated by George Best as the best he had ever faced. He can contain Kempes.

He wouldn't be coming into midfield, Danilo would be the holding midfielder while Ballack tracks back in his preferred box to box role and that is the shield I have in midfield. Since there's not much space behind the defense Maradona would either need to play it out wide to Boniek or go solo, which is where Gentile would guard the penalty area and throw him off his runs. He was an expert of the physical game.

I haven't seen much of Cohen to be honest, there are a few players I have seen being in all star teams of the World Cups, very few I'd think who can contain that 78 Kempes who was the driving force in attack in that Argentina team, scored 6 goals and played at the heart of the team. He wasn't someone who stood up front waiting for a pass. As I said, picture Rooney at his peak and you have him. That's the easiest I can make the comparison. You could never keep that Rooney out of the game, same goes for Kempes. "Containing" him would be easy if he would at least assume one sole position on the pitch. He's a roaming forward here. Dropping deep, pulling wide, being a proper nuisance. That's his strenght. I'm not expecting him to be a playmaker or an unstoppable dribbler, but what he does is dragging players with him to a great extent, which would be key here. A lot of times he would cut in and take on the CB, so the responsibility of dealing with him shifts immediately to Rio from Cohen, that's the chaos I am talking about.

Lastly about Hidegkuti, indeed him playing as false 9 and dropping deep was a massive pain in the ass from defenders and I will perhaps not have that same "surprise factor" but the rest remains. Part of being a great false 9 is also being creative, finding teammates making runs accurately and having the movement to link up with the attack, all of which would be handy here. He was a different type of false 9 than Messi IMO, while Messi players with two forwards alongside him, Hidegkuti played with 4 in a 5 man attack and hence him playing behind a striker wouldn't hamper his creativity, as he still usually at least had Kocsis playing ahead of him with Puskas roaming on the left. That is not that different from what I am trying to do here.

 

[antohan]

Quick Q. In future rounds, I guess you can pick players from teams already lost but can still pick unpicked players right? Not that that would make any sense whatsoever unless tree is genuinely someone who was overlooked by everyone and should be a round 1/2 pick which is unlikely. Then again he could be a perfect fit for your team too!

Rumbled! I was planning on picking Conti 4th and enjoy the meltdown while I argued it was perfectly fine just for kicks.

It shouldn't be allowed IMO. It places a penalty on the managers who have drafted better taking into account constraints, future needs, etc. You can't reopen the entire pool back for those who have got themselves in a pickle. It's unfair. The released players should be more than enough and, if they aren't, there must have been something wrong with your drafting.

 

[Moby]

For your Kempes dropping into midfield, I have Boniek, only better.

It is not just bodies where I have the edge, but more importantly balance and quality.

As I said in post above, putting Romario upfront sacrifices part of Hidegkuti's game.

Your instruction to ask Garrincha to drop deep into midfield can only backfire. You are taking away what he is best at and asking him to get stuck into the midfield battle because your midfield three has fallen short there.

Danilo is very good on the ball but much less so without it. In your setup, he does not have the ball-winners like he had for Brazil.
Where is your defensive shield when you are facing Maradona?

The dropping deep part has been interpreted wrongly. By dropping deep, I don't mean him to help out in midfield or track back the opponent wide player, not at all. He's a winger, but I am willing to use his ability of dribbling past a complete team at will by allowing him to collect the ball in deeper areas IF needed and try and dribble past your defense down the flank and put in a cross for the incoming runners. I don't think that is largely different from what he excelled at. With the passing range in the team, he would be the last one to see the necessity of dropping deep.

As for Maradona, like I've said for Maradona in this form, you cannot have one man looking after him. I believe that is where we differ, while you are looking at one man trying to mark him, I am systematically curbing his influence and even then I do not claim he will be handled completely, I expect him to impact the game to a certain extent in any scenario. You will score, there's no doubt about it. I've just put men on the field specifically handled with jobs to deny him much sight of goal or space to pick a pass, and a couple of those have historical proof of achieving that against Maradona at various stages in his career. Scirea actually kept a clean sheet in a game where Diego was dominating the midfield and threw everything at him, yet I am not claiming that at all but I expect some sort of respect for Scirea to not only having shown that he can think like Maradona but also stop him, but also rallied the defense in a massive WC winning campaign against some top quality attacks including knocking out that magical Brazilain 82 team. I don't think there is any debate that it was Scirea's leadership and organization of defense while also being at the heart of it that was a massive reason for those results.

 

[Moby]

These are very fair points - no doubt - and I'm not saying this will be one-sided: not at all. What I'm saying is that the key here is the midfield battle - and the battle between your defense and Maradona. Something will give both here and there - it's impossible to shut off the supply completely, just as I believe it's impossible to contain Maradona completely. It's a matter of degrees - which of these battles will be won (or lost) to the largest degree?

And I don't have an answer for you - like I said, this is very close.

Yep, no denying the fact that both teams have top quality match winners who can easily turn the game around.

 

[Polaroid]

He wouldn't be coming into midfield, Danilo would be the holding midfielder while Ballack tracks back in his preferred box to box role and that is the shield I have in midfield. Since there's not much space behind the defense Maradona would either need to play it out wide to Boniek or go solo, which is where Gentile would guard the penalty area and throw him off his runs. He was an expert of the physical game.

I haven't seen much of Cohen to be honest, there are a few players I have seen being in all star teams of the World Cups, very few I'd think who can contain that 78 Kempes who was the driving force in attack in that Argentina team, scored 6 goals and played at the heart of the team. He wasn't someone who stood up front waiting for a pass. As I said, picture Rooney at his peak and you have him. That's the easiest I can make the comparison. You could never keep that Rooney out of the game, same goes for Kempes. "Containing" him would be easy if he would at least assume one sole position on the pitch. He's a roaming forward here. Dropping deep, pulling wide, being a proper nuisance. That's his strenght. I'm not expecting him to be a playmaker or an unstoppable dribbler, but what he does is dragging players with him to a great extent, which would be key here. A lot of times he would cut in and take on the CB, so the responsibility of dealing with him shifts immediately to Rio from Cohen, that's the chaos I am talking about.

Lastly about Hidegkuti, indeed him playing as false 9 and dropping deep was a massive pain in the ass from defenders and I will perhaps not have that same "surprise factor" but the rest remains. Part of being a great false 9 is also being creative, finding teammates making runs accurately and having the movement to link up with the attack, all of which would be handy here. He was a different type of false 9 than Messi IMO, while Messi players with two forwards alongside him, Hidegkuti played with 4 in a 5 man attack and hence him playing behind a striker wouldn't hamper his creativity, as he still usually at least had Kocsis playing ahead of him with Puskas roaming on the left. That is not that different from what I am trying to do here.

You said you are playing a deep defensive line, that is surrendering space to Maradona, Zizinho and Ocwirk to orchestrate and dictate proceedings against a disadvantaged midfield already very hard trying to keep up.
As I have said, Danilo is very good on the ball but much less so without it. You do not have a ball winner and defensive shield going up against Maradona and Zizinho, and you are getting away with it! unbelievable!
Ballack's prime was as an AM making runs into the box, not as a box-to-box

Kempes is a great player, I like him myself personally, but Cohen was even better in that WC than he was for Fulham going up against George Best and United.

Romario plays differently to Puskas and Kocsis. When you have a pure no 9 like Romario, Hidegkuti would not be the best choice, do get another AM if you go through

 

[Moby]

You said you are playing a deep defensive line, that is surrendering space to Maradona, Zizinho and Ocwirk to orchestrate and dictate proceedings against a disadvantaged midfield already very hard trying to keep up.
As I have said, Danilo is very good on the ball but much less so without it. You do not have a ball winner and defensive shield going up against Maradona and Zizinho, and you are getting away with it! unbelievable!
Ballack's prime was as an AM making runs into the box, not as a box-to-box

Kempes is a great player, I like him myself personally, but Cohen was even better in that WC than he was for Fulham going up against George Best and United.

Romario plays differently to Puskas and Kocsis. When you have a pure no 9 like Romario, Hidegkuti would not be the best choice, do get another AM if you go through

Can you explain the last part, I don't mean to disagree but as I said, I don't see as an issue. Sure he is not a false 9, I never said I want him to be one, he's there for his creativity, movement and vision. I personally don't see it dysfunctional when on the ball. I might go for a different AM but that would be for different reasons, not because I don't see Hidegkuti performing the duty required here. But I'm open on being proven wrong on this.

 

[antohan]

Pol/Aldo, sorry I can't give this game the attention and commentary it deserves. I will be competing in a fishing competition in Punta del Este tomorrow so unlikely to have the chance to get back in time.

Pol is getting absolutely and unfairly murdered here, most likely due to the less known names in his midfield. That is NOT why I vote him, but it is why I have no misgivings doing it without interacting with managers and giving them a chance to reply.

Sacrificing Stiles for Hidegkuti is a strange one Aldo. I share the sentiment about alternatives given Garrincha may be dealt with appropriately, absolutely. My issue is I can see Zito dealing with him, Garrincha as best stopped as possible, I don't rate Danilo defensively and that leaves Ballack with quite a monster of a game to play (when he bombs forward I'd expect Zito to pick him and leave Hideguti to Ocwirk, in case it gets asked). I do agree there could be goals for Romario if you played him through, most likely via Kempes, but I'm not seeing that happen regularly enough which will frustrate him.

Conversely, Zito was at times a one-man midfield for Brazil, and I can see Ocwirk dictating from deep very successfully with Boniek, Zizinho and Maradona's movement ahead. Pol's teamsheet is not sexy at all, but looking at it long and hard and knowing the players I can't see you stopping that, not in a million years, not even with such an immense back four. The entire logic of Burgnich tucking in and Gentile 82 stopping Maradona 86 falls apart for me because the premise is no challenge on that flank, which makes zero sense to me with Boniek on the pitch and Breitner who, Garrincha or not, arrow or not, will bomb forward if a goal is needed leaving Maldini there anyway.

Strangely, I can clearly see Pol having the better chances of scoring in this game, but that is also compounded by the fact I couldn't tell you exactly what Maradona/Boniek/Zizinho will do to unlock that defence. That's the beauty of it, it's genial movement on the loose, while I know exactly how you are most likely to score, which at the very least means your rivals know what they are up against and are fully focused and drilled to stop it.

 

[Moby]

Pol/Aldo, sorry I can't give this game the attention and commentary it deserves. I will be competing in a fishing competition in Punta del Este tomorrow so unlikely to have the chance to get back in time.

Pol is getting absolutely and unfairly murdered here, most likely due to the less known names in his midfield. That is NOT why I vote him, but it is why I have no misgivings doing it without interacting with managers and giving them a chance to reply.

Sacrificing Stiles for Hidegkuti is a strange one Aldo. I share the sentiment about alternatives given Garrincha may be dealt with appropriately, absolutely. My issue is I can see Zito dealing with him, Garrincha as best stopped as possible, I don't rate Danilo defensively and that leaves Ballack with quite a monster of a game to play (when he bombs forward I'd expect Zito to pick him and leave Hideguti to Ocwirk, in case it gets asked). I do agree there could be goals for Romario if you played him through, most likely via Kempes, but I'm not seeing that happen regularly enough which will frustrate him.

Conversely, Zito was at times a one-man midfield for Brazil, and I can see Ocwirk dictating from deep very successfully with Boniek, Zizinho and Maradona's movement ahead. Pol's teamsheet is not sexy at all, but looking at it long and hard and knowing the players I can't see you stopping that, not in a million years, not even with such an immense back four. The entire logic of Burgnich tucking in and Gentile 82 stopping Maradona 86 falls apart for me because the premise is no challenge on that flank, which makes zero sense to me with Boniek on the pitch and Breitner who, Garrincha or not, arrow or not, will bomb forward if a goal is needed leaving Maldini there anyway.

Strangely, I can clearly see Pol having the better chances of scoring in this game, but that is also compounded by the fact I couldn't tell you exactly what Maradona/Boniek/Zizinho will do to unlock that defence. That's the beauty of it, it's genial movement on the loose, while I know exactly how you are most likely to score, which at the very least means your rivals know what they are up against and are fully focused and drilled to stop it.

I'll gladly accept Breitner bombing forward. With the range of passing that runs throughout the team, leave Garrincha with Maldini needing to step out all you want, that falls in my favour.

By the way that is not what Pol has said, I know some players have their styles but instructions and tactics do change them according to requirement. Matthaus was a free roaming animal in midfield but when needed he followed Maradona while compromising his fondness to run forward. You shouldn't be considering scenarios which the manager hasn't set out for.

 

[antohan]

I'll gladly accept Breitner bombing forward. With the range of passing that runs throughout the team, leave Garrincha with Maldini needing to step out all you want, that falls in my favour.

By the way that is not what Pol has said, I know some players have their styles but instructions and tactics do change them according to requirement. Matthaus was a free roaming animal in midfield but when needed he followed Maradona while compromising his fondness to run forward. You shouldn't be considering scenarios which the manager hasn't set out for.

I think the absence of an arrow means he won't do it systematically, but assuming someone like Breitner won't venture forward here and there (not least when in possession and bringing the ball out of defence himself) would be a bit ridiculous. In any case, your main problem isn't Breitner, it's Boniek.

 

[Moby]

I think the absence of an arrow means he won't do it systematically, but assuming someone like Breitner won't venture forward here and there (not least when in possession and bringing the ball out of defence himself) would be a bit ridiculous. In any case, your main problem isn't Breitner, it's Boniek.

Is it though? Scirea and Gentile kept two clean sheets in two games against Poland in 1982. One was the group game in which Boniek played, other was the semi final. I have two excellent fullbacks and whichever flank Boniek appears at, he'd be certainly nowhere near my biggest worry, that is Diego. Just because he is versatile doesn't mean one cannot prepare against him. It just means there are more than one scenarios possible with him on the ball, same as mine.

And as for predictability, throughout Garrincha's career people knew what he would do. Never changed anything. He's that sort of a player where you know what exactly he's gonna do but you'd still won't be able to do anything. It's a bit like the old Ronaldo vs Messi argument, Ronaldo always knew how to score in more ways, occupy a lot more different areas on the pitch while Messi just kept dribbling past 3 every week and kept scoring.

As for Breitner, let the manager decide what he wants from him. There has been discussion on his role and Pol has not one mentioned that he would run forward and rightly so, anyone would be mental to allow the fullback to venture forward when you have someone like Garrincha and moreso when you have passers of the quality my team has. It is fairly certain Pol acknowledges the same.

 

[Polaroid]

Pol/Aldo, sorry I can't give this game the attention and commentary it deserves. I will be competing in a fishing competition in Punta del Este tomorrow so unlikely to have the chance to get back in time.

Pol is getting absolutely and unfairly murdered here, most likely due to the less known names in his midfield. That is NOT why I vote him, but it is why I have no misgivings doing it without interacting with managers and giving them a chance to reply.

Sacrificing Stiles for Hidegkuti is a strange one Aldo. I share the sentiment about alternatives given Garrincha may be dealt with appropriately, absolutely. My issue is I can see Zito dealing with him, Garrincha as best stopped as possible, I don't rate Danilo defensively and that leaves Ballack with quite a monster of a game to play (when he bombs forward I'd expect Zito to pick him and leave Hideguti to Ocwirk, in case it gets asked). I do agree there could be goals for Romario if you played him through, most likely via Kempes, but I'm not seeing that happen regularly enough which will frustrate him.

Conversely, Zito was at times a one-man midfield for Brazil, and I can see Ocwirk dictating from deep very successfully with Boniek, Zizinho and Maradona's movement ahead. Pol's teamsheet is not sexy at all, but looking at it long and hard and knowing the players I can't see you stopping that, not in a million years, not even with such an immense back four. The entire logic of Burgnich tucking in and Gentile 82 stopping Maradona 86 falls apart for me because the premise is no challenge on that flank, which makes zero sense to me with Boniek on the pitch and Breitner who, Garrincha or not, arrow or not, will bomb forward if a goal is needed leaving Maldini there anyway.

Strangely, I can clearly see Pol having the better chances of scoring in this game, but that is also compounded by the fact I couldn't tell you exactly what Maradona/Boniek/Zizinho will do to unlock that defence. That's the beauty of it, it's genial movement on the loose, while I know exactly how you are most likely to score, which at the very least means your rivals know what they are up against and are fully focused and drilled to stop it.

Thank you Anto and if I am going out, lets at least enjoy some classic Maradona footage

Diego Maradona
86 WC Golden Ball winner, the greatest WC player of all-time and the only player one can ever argue won a WC on his own.
Imagine the creativity of Zizinho, the influence of Di Stefano, the precision of Puskas, the match-winning prowess of Pele, the dribbling of Garrincha, the power of Eusebio, the balance of Best, the intelligence of Beckanbauer, the big match temperament of Muller, the imagination of Cruyff, the passing of Platini, the vision of M. Laudrup, the technique of Zidane, the explosiveness of Ronaldo, the flair of Ronaldinho and the close control of Messi. Fuse them into one, add the golden ability to elevate teammates to another level and you have Diego Maradona.
Bobby Robson on Maradona "Other teams have tried everything. They have assigned a man to mark him, they have closed down space, they have let him go while attempting to cut off his service. To no avail. Let's just say that without Maradona, Argentina would have no chance of winning the World Cup. That's how great he is"
Baresi on Maradona "Nobody can ever become like him. Of course, Messi has lots of qualities. But Maradona remains Maradona"

Extended WC footage of Maradona

Spoiler

Maradona aged 21 at his debut WC




Maradona in his prime at Mexico 86

 

[Polaroid]

More extended WC footage of Maradona

Spoiler

Maradona in his prime at Mexico 86



Maradona with his ankle in pieces at Italia 90

 

[Polaroid]

Can you explain the last part, I don't mean to disagree but as I said, I don't see as an issue. Sure he is not a false 9, I never said I want him to be one, he's there for his creativity, movement and vision. I personally don't see it dysfunctional when on the ball. I might go for a different AM but that would be for different reasons, not because I don't see Hidegkuti performing the duty required here. But I'm open on being proven wrong on this.

That is the whole point - his best came in the false 9 role but you are not playing him as one because you already have a pure 9 there, his movement would be different and takes away a key feature of his game

 

[antohan]

Is it though? Scirea and Gentile kept two clean sheets in two games against Poland in 1982. One was the group game in which Boniek played, other was the semi final. I have two excellent fullbacks and whichever flank Boniek appears at, he'd be certainly nowhere near my biggest worry, that is Diego. Just because he is versatile doesn't mean one cannot prepare against him. It just means there are more than one scenarios possible with him on the ball, same as mine.

No time to read through and answer proper Aldo. Second game Boniek was suspended for.

I'm not saying Boniek will rape your fullbacks, just that the logic of Burgnich tucking in and Gentile going walkabout after Maradona because that flank is unchallenged is deeply flawed with him ont he pitch. If you execute it then Boniek will tear you apart.

Maradona-Zizinho-Boniek, the movement there is astounding, Ocwirk is living the DLP dream with so many passes on, particularly when you have no DM who can get even remotely close to dealing with any of them.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I usually hate how overrated Maradona gets in these drafts but suddenly he has become incredibly underrated.

He is always overrated because everybody just instantly assumes he would become even better if he had other huge stars in front and around him. I am of the opinion that Maradona needs a similar setting that you have provided him here. He is the big star and will be on the ball pretty much nonstop through-out the entire game. All the other players has to do is provide runs which even that Argentina would at a sufficient level.

I think Maradona would prefer playing with players who don't want the ball too much but instead have their main qualities in off-the-ball.

 

[Moby]

No time to read through and answer proper Aldo. Second game Boniek was suspended for.

I'm not saying Boniek will rape your fullbacks, just that the logic of Burgnich tucking in and Gentile going walkabout after Maradona because that flank is unchallenged is deeply flawed with him ont he pitch. If you execute it then Boniek will tear you apart.

Maradona-Zizinho-Boniek, the movement there is astounding, Ocwirk is living the DLP dream with so many passes on, particularly when you have no DM who can get even remotely close to dealing with any of them.

That was not a logic, but a tactic. Boniek is starting from the right here, he's going to remain away from Burgnich for a considerable time here which is when that logic fully applies. When he does come to the right, then obviously Burgnich would not have as much freedom to move inwards.

There is a reason Pol has started him on the right and said he would make runs towards the left but that is not his position in the game which means that logic or tactic would be applied for the major part of the game. Is he staying mainly on the left? If yes, then Pol must say so. Again putting words in his mouth.

You cannot give a counter argument for each and every possible scenario in the game. I have broadly covered how I plan to deal with his attack. Kempes can show up in midfield and go on a driving run with Zito already occupied with Hidegkuti and the remaining committed in attack, I don't expect him tell me how he plans with each and every situation just because I possess a versatile player.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think that is a fair statement of you Aldo. That we can't go by anything except what the manager has said. I have noticed sometimes "Not saying something" is an advantage as people will find their own best ways on how to use them.

I think it is a bit cheap so I hold it against the manager until it has been explained. I mean all it takes is one line about their role - what will X player do in this game.

 

[antohan]

Again putting words in his mouth.

As said, have had no time to read up tactics and ensuing debate, just calling it how I see/imagine it.

 

[Moby]

As said, have had no time to read up tactics and ensuing debate, just calling it how I see/imagine it.

Yeah, got that. It's just the Boniek fanboi inside you that sees him tearing apart everyone in sight everywhere on the pitch, except when he was playing against us in that all time draft.

 

[antohan]

Yeah, got that. It's just the Boniek fanboi inside you that sees him tearing apart everyone in sight everywhere on the pitch, except when he was playing against us in that all time draft.

In fairness, he was misused there IIRC, or at least it was the only time I saw him in a role where multiple manic arrows or kits scattered across the pitch weren't the best way to protray him. Pol should have done what I wanted to do in the 50s draft, just stick a Boniek shirt in 3-4 different places, but I guess this11 wouldn't allow it.

Still 20 pages of Turn 1 WW to read, FML.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The way forward for Aldo is to have a repeat of Gentile man-marking Maradona and let Burgnich cover for him. Should work as Pol does not have any major threat in that wing. Assuming both Maradona and Hideguti are marked out, Pol still has Zizinho/Boniek for creatvity and act as goal threat with Aldo having only Ballack to create but with many too strikers to utilize, which is not that optimal imho. I consider this critical as Rio of WC is not in the same class as Maldini, Scirea or Gentile this weak link will remain unexploited. Ballack as AM with Stiles behind shades the current lineup.

I think Pol's shades this round!

 

[Thisistheone]

Went with Pol by a whisker.

I'm not a fan of Aldo's midfield (an otherwise brilliantly construced side, though.) and feel it will let Pol get at his back four too often. And that back four, as good as it is, already has enough on their plate.

 

[RoadTrip]

I'm still undecided here. I'm really unsure about some of the analysis here by some though.

Firstly the analysis about Boniek ripping through the defence. The point being no matter what side he is on, Gentile won't just run out of defence like a headless chicken. It's fair to expect there would be some measure about it. There won't be some huge gap for Boniek to exploit. Also let's think about this logically. If Boniek is running into the heart of the defence, then chances are Maradona is not in a deep position. Chances are he is running into the box too for a chance to score. All of a sudden Gentile doesn't have to step out as Maradona is stepping in. Also the other thing being ignored is the LB if Boniek switches flanks. Lizarzu won't have anyone on that side so he won't just be standing on the left like a madman. He'd be also defending in the box. It's much more dynamic IMO than the isolated analysis so far.

One bit of analysis I do agree with is the midfield battle. Pol has this in the bag there is no question. But time and time again in football, winning the midfield isn't a guarantee of winning the match. However the problem for Aldo here is that Danilo is a good passer but the only one. If he gets marked out of the game it is very very hard for Aldo to get past MF. As I said controlling midfield doesn't guarantee a loss. But if you don't control it and are unable to get past it, it's big. The issue stems from having players who want to bomb through MF in Ballack and Kempes. However someone more like a Pirlo for example who could get that ball quickly to the front 4 irrespective of who was in between would have helped big time in my opinion. However Ballack and Danilo can still play a pass so I don't think it's completely shut off.

The other thing I'm surprised that hasn't been talked about much is Rio. Great defender for United but for England? And he is up against a fearsome fearsome attacking 4. With Garrincha likely to pull Maldini out, poor Rio has Romario. That is one of the biggest mismatches in the draft.

Overall I have voted for Aldo. My point is the issues about Boniek are not as big a factor as others have made out, in my opinion. I just think Romario and Garrincha are so good that even if Maldini moves wide there is no guarantee Garrincha is stopped and Rio just has no chance against a breaking Kempes and Romario.

Also, Maradona was exquisite. I don't like that when he picks up the ball he has only half the pitch to really look at as one side doesn't have a winger. This makes it just that bit easier to defend against.

 

[Gio]

I see Pol as having the right set of defenders to negate (as much as that can be done) the influence of Garrincha and Romario, whereas Aldo's set-up to manage Maradona is a whole lot less convincing. The midfield IMO is just too top heavy (even moreso when factoring in the nonexistent off-the-ball contribution of Garrincha and Romario) given the threat of Maradona, Zizinho, Boniek and Ocwirk. Two highly talented teams but Polaroid by a goal or two.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I usually hate how overrated Maradona gets in these drafts but suddenly he has become incredibly underrated.

He is always overrated because everybody just instantly assumes he would become even better if he had other huge stars in front and around him. I am of the opinion that Maradona needs a similar setting that you have provided him here. He is the big star and will be on the ball pretty much nonstop through-out the entire game. All the other players has to do is provide runs which even that Argentina would at a sufficient level.

I think Maradona would prefer playing with players who don't want the ball too much but instead have their main qualities in off-the-ball.

That's a good point. As regards Ferdinand, I think he's well-suited stylistically to facing Romario. Very quick over the crucial first few yards and he has great anticipation. Whether that's enough to completely shut out 1994 Romario is debatable though.

 

[Balu]

But that is how Scirea has successfully tackled Maradona. And that is the exact reason Baresi was found out, because Sacchi preferred a high line to suffocate the space for Maradona, but Maradona loved the space behind the defense and created chances for fun.

That's mostly based on their games in Italy right? I haven't seen that much besides a few highlights and a few games, but that sounds incredible harsh towards Baresi, imo. Napoli beat Juve to the title in 86/87 and shortly after Scirea retired, while Sacchi took over at Milan, if I remember correctly. Napoli became a significantly stronger team and more difficult to defend against from '86 onwards. And it shouldn't count anyway in this draft.

If we go by worldcup performances, I'd say key for Italy to keep Maradona as silent as possible was to keep him away from the penalty area as much as possible. They pressured Argentina all over the pitch and forced Maradona to drop deep to receive the ball and then tackled/fouled him, before he could run towards goal. If you start defending against him around the penalty area, he just needs to get past 1 or 2 players to create something dangerous or if you foul him, you give away way too many dangerous freekicks to him. That's really not what Italy did back then. When he came close to the penalty area, he was always dangerous and almost impossible to handle.



The goal he scored is one that I could easily see happen in this game. Boniek forcing Burgnich to defend out wide, Maradona with one turn around Gentile through on goal and Zizinho passing to him after they could comfortably pass their way through midfield.

I still believe you went with the right line-up, because bringing Stiles in for Hidegkuti would starve Romario from any service, imo, and it would come down to who's more likely to overcome the defense, Garrincha or Maradona, and that would at least for me in this game be clearly the Argentine. But I'm not sold on your plan to defend against Maradona, you focus way too much on Scirea's skills in the box and that's one step too late, imo.

 

[Thisistheone]

12-10. It's getting tight.

 

[antohan]

I'm still undecided here. I'm really unsure about some of the analysis here by some though.

Firstly the analysis about Boniek ripping through the defence. The point being no matter what side he is on, Gentile won't just run out of defence like a headless chicken. It's fair to expect there would be some measure about it. There won't be some huge gap for Boniek to exploit...

My point is the issues about Boniek are not as big a factor as others have made out, in my opinion.

I assume this relates to me. I repeat, it isn't that Boniek would tear a new one into either fullback any more than other wingers would. My point is that assuming Burgnich is unchallenged throughout is flawed when a player like Boniek is on the pitch.

 

[Cling Bak]

Pol.

He's got an immense back four, Maradona (I needn't say anymore than just that in fairness), and Careca finishing them off. That's enough.

 

[antohan]

I usually hate how overrated Maradona gets in these drafts but suddenly he has become incredibly underrated.

He is always overrated because everybody just instantly assumes he would become even better if he had other huge stars in front and around him. I am of the opinion that Maradona needs a similar setting that you have provided him here. He is the big star and will be on the ball pretty much nonstop through-out the entire game. All the other players has to do is provide runs which even that Argentina would at a sufficient level.

I think Maradona would prefer playing with players who don't want the ball too much but instead have their main qualities in off-the-ball.

It was only seeing Pat's reply I noticed this. Absolutely, one of the main attributes that made Maradona great was raising the level of those around them. If those around him are already great he is still the outstanding individual talent he was, but his influence on the collective step up in quality is somewhat made redundant.

That said, while I agree Maradona should see loads of the ball, he wasn't one not to want others to have much of it IMO. There was this little kid in him who loved the prospect of playing with great partners who had a similar understanding and quality. e.g. If Rivelino were to play on the same pitch he would be creaming himself at the prospect. There's the danger he would be far more interested in engaging in a football show with him though.

Not sure I'm being clear here. Some greats need the ball and would be put off their game by having another superstar getting much of the ball and initiative(conversely, Pelé executed a masterclass in excelling surrounded by #10s!). Maradona wouldn't IMO, the problem would be the opposite, whether he would like it too much and be less effective as a result trying to pull off a joint masterpiece all the time rather than constantly service someone like Burruchaga to just run, shoot and score. Mind, it depends on the partner's attitude to it, it takes two to tango.

Let's put it this way, Maradona would be nowhere near as effective as Pelé in that 1970 side and viceversa. That's why it is so bloody hard to tell them apart.

 

[Thisistheone]

Bloody hell what a turnaround for Pol.

 

[antohan]

Ah, bugger. I should have left you two to it.