All Time World Cup Draft - Pol vs Aldo
- Thread starter Theon
- Start date
Voted for myself to see the score.
A question for Aldo: With no one on the left, who will Bugnich man mark? Maradona? Is he man marking in his general area?
Two very good teams
I think I would have preferred Zizinho on the flanks for Pol, as an inside forward, to make it more of a 4-2-3-1. With his dribbling ability he could certainly play there and I think it gives more balance to the side.
Hard to pick holes in anything else though, and even with Zizinho that is just personal preference.
I think I would have preferred Zizinho on the flanks for Pol, as an inside forward, to make it more of a 4-2-3-1. With his dribbling ability he could certainly play there and I think it gives more balance to the side.
Hard to pick holes in anything else though, and even with Zizinho that is just personal preference.
As there's no one starting on the left flank the man marking is withdrawn. Burgnich will now have the freedom to tuck inside while Gentile steps out of the box to tackle Maradona as soon as he tries to dribble towards goal while Scirea uses his exceptional game intelligence to intercept the throughballs.
With Burgnich coming inside Pol's narrow attack can find itself in a congested area.
Yeah, two excellent teams. Unlucky to draw eachother.
I thought that was what you would be doign all along. That said, there's a false premise there. I could see Boniek doing a Conti-style role and not be dedicated to one flank but keep switching between them, particularly if going down the left means Burgnich coming out to get him and Gentile having to choose between stepping back to defence or sticking to Maradona. That would actually be quite an interesting setup to see being played out. I call it the Conti role because that was his role for Italy but it was exactly what Boniek did, week in, week out.
That's actually a role I've always wondered why it isn't that common. It maybe down to how hard it is to find someone so comfortable either side and with the required engine and football brain as well. You basically play one of your 11 players as a winger and you effectively can have two wingers (as in, the ability to stretch and challenge either flank). It's very very clever and I'm kicking myself for picking two keepers and Conti not getting picked at all. I really can't fecking believe it.
I hope Pol and Aldo find the time to talk more about their teams, because I've not the slightest clue who to vote for. Burgnich without an direct opponent so that Gentile can torture Maradona again and Garrincha running in Breitner and Maldini is just sick. The two greatest 'one man winning the worldcup' performers in the history of the tournament and both run in one of the few defensive setups that could actually handle them to a certain degree. Boniek might be a way for Pol, I agree with Anto there.
I like the idea of Burgnich moving in to let Gentile do his old number on Diego...That smacks of WC greatness (and foulness) all the way.
I like both these teams. More scrutiny needed. Looking forward to hearing more from the managers.
I like both these teams. More scrutiny needed. Looking forward to hearing more from the managers.
I must say when I was scanning over players Aldo had my favourite team. I thought it was easily the best. But when I see this it seems closer...
Interesting formation Pol. Very interesting.
Interesting formation Pol. Very interesting.
Quick Q. In future rounds, I guess you can pick players from teams already lost but can still pick unpicked players right? Not that that would make any sense whatsoever
unless tree is genuinely someone who was overlooked by everyone and should be a round 1/2 pick which is unlikely. Then again he could be a perfect fit for your team too!I am interested to know what Pol will do about the front 4 of Aldo. To me it is absolutely perfect. Garrincha is the best winger in the draft. He has a passing option in Hidegkuti, a class finisher in the middle in Romario, and in Kempes a striker who is notorious for work rate and coming into the box late to get his goals. This is a match winning attack for me but I would like to hear Pol and how he plans to stop it.
I like that Aldo went with the more attacking version and not with the more defensive he posted in the draft thread.
Pol's attack is pretty much centered on Maradona. I don't he has used Zizinho properly here, while his creativity is useful in a deeper role, he could run well at defenders in the final third which he won't be able to do here and with a Ballack on full flow in midfield won't be giving him much time to pick a pass.
Maradona's got plenty of traffic ahead of him, Scirea is one of the few defenders who has usually done well against Maradona at country and club level, and alongside him is the man who was Maradona's nemesis in 82.
On the other hand I have Garrincha stretching the play and at his absolute peak, he will require to be double marked even though he has some top defenders against him, which will free up space for the rest of the attack.
Is Rio Ferdinand capable of handling Romario's movement when he was at his peak, with service from Kempes, Hidegkuti and Garrincha, this being the England Rio, not the United Rio?
Kempes' movement, workrate and link up and freedom will enable him to be all over the final third and combining the rest of the forwards in creating chances.
All in all both teams have two players who are considered to have won WC for their country singlehandedly, both defenses are solid but it will be tough to stop both of them. However I feel I have given better support to Garrincha than he has to Maradona in attack and I should be able to outscore him.
Maradona's got plenty of traffic ahead of him, Scirea is one of the few defenders who has usually done well against Maradona at country and club level, and alongside him is the man who was Maradona's nemesis in 82.
On the other hand I have Garrincha stretching the play and at his absolute peak, he will require to be double marked even though he has some top defenders against him, which will free up space for the rest of the attack.
Is Rio Ferdinand capable of handling Romario's movement when he was at his peak, with service from Kempes, Hidegkuti and Garrincha, this being the England Rio, not the United Rio?
Kempes' movement, workrate and link up and freedom will enable him to be all over the final third and combining the rest of the forwards in creating chances.
All in all both teams have two players who are considered to have won WC for their country singlehandedly, both defenses are solid but it will be tough to stop both of them. However I feel I have given better support to Garrincha than he has to Maradona in attack and I should be able to outscore him.
Very important question here, indeed.
Anyone else think Pol should have gone 4-2-3-1 with Zizinho more towards the left and Ocwirk/Zito deeper?
I'm not saying what he has done is wrong, but hopefully he comes online as I'm curious on the thinking there
I'm not saying what he has done is wrong, but hopefully he comes online as I'm curious on the thinking there
Problem here is if Maldini is going to help out against Mane then Rio is left alone against Romario. Essentially Maradona is enough to swing this for Pol but Aldo's point about Burgnich tucking in to allow Gentile to close down Diego is a good one.
The downside to this is - possibly - that he would then come to occupy precisely that space Maradona loves to drift out to.
But the upside is a formation many will probably regard as more balanced. And - not least - that having Zizinho out there will make the Burgnich/Gentile ploy harder to pull off, as Burgnich will suddenly have much more of a job on his hands.
Sorry lads, just woke up
Thank you Theon for setting up the match
I like Aldo's side, fantastic team, in particular the pair of Garrincha and Romario. Romario comes to life in the box where he will be deadly, so the key is to keep Romario out of the box and cut off the supply to Garrincha hence that is why I said the the first key to the game here would be control of the midfield platform, dictating play whilst strangulating the opposition supply. This is where I have the advantage with Aldo playing a less balanced midfield three comprising a withdrawn forward, an attacking CM and a ball playing holding midfielder against my midfield which has the edge in balance, quantity and quality.
Thank you Theon for setting up the match
I like Aldo's side, fantastic team, in particular the pair of Garrincha and Romario. Romario comes to life in the box where he will be deadly, so the key is to keep Romario out of the box and cut off the supply to Garrincha hence that is why I said the the first key to the game here would be control of the midfield platform, dictating play whilst strangulating the opposition supply. This is where I have the advantage with Aldo playing a less balanced midfield three comprising a withdrawn forward, an attacking CM and a ball playing holding midfielder against my midfield which has the edge in balance, quantity and quality.
Scirea's WC prime was as a libero, so I am not sure which Scirea to envision here - we can't point to the Scirea who played in a back four for Juve, as this tourney is based solely on WC performances
The thing is with no out and out winger on the left, the RB can tuck in. This gives Scirea the chance to play his style. Also you need to decide the next steps in the Annah / fergu'son game
Can Gentile 82 stop Maradona 86 on his own? check out the WC footage linked in OP
Hmm potentially, but I don't see that as a huge issue - Maradona will go where he likes anyway and he's clever enough to interchange with Zizinho. Hell, forget interchanging as they would just play some lovely stuff together.
I don't think Maradona getting crowded out is an issue here - the way it would be in my magic square, for example - here there is quite a nice space for him to play in. Most importantly his passing will be utilised here with Boniek's runs.
Zizinho on the other side would add to that I think, he was a fantastic dribbler and Maradona would be able to pick those passes out. As it is I think we're missing a small benefit there, with Zizinho behind him it's one less attacker for Maradona to create and pass to
You could look at this as a good old Italian set-up, actually - with Burgnich as the third purely defensive man and Lizarazu in the Cabrini/Facchetti role. It has an air of catenaccio, almost.
There is not much to discuss about the midfield. Pol has the number 1-4 best midfielders on the pitch and a numerical advantage - expecting complete domination here from Pol.
The most interesting battle here is Pol's perfect defensive line which looks like it is hand-picked just to counter Aldo's team.
Breitner and Maldini are among the finest pair in history at being able to handle Garrincha. If Garrincha gets past Breitner, possibly the best left-back defensively in history - Maldini - moves out and Breitner goes centrally where he is among the best as well.
When this happens Cohen is perfectly suited to close down in to the box with his great height and ability against crosses. Ferdinand does not need much explanation as we all know he is a very solid defender even considering WC's.
The real key though is Zito who had an amazing work-rate and would put in a shift against the in my eyes key-player Hidegkuti. Aldo has an incredibly long way to reach his forwards - Hidegkuti is the man with that difficult task of linking the both together.
Zito has the energy, stamina and work-rate to follow Hidegkuti who himself was very mobile and unpredictable in his movement. I don't think one can really stop a false- 9 from receiving the ball but Zito will be just behind him and making sure the next pass will be made under huge stress.
For me Stiles is echoing with his non-presence in your team Aldo.
The most interesting battle here is Pol's perfect defensive line which looks like it is hand-picked just to counter Aldo's team.
Breitner and Maldini are among the finest pair in history at being able to handle Garrincha. If Garrincha gets past Breitner, possibly the best left-back defensively in history - Maldini - moves out and Breitner goes centrally where he is among the best as well.
When this happens Cohen is perfectly suited to close down in to the box with his great height and ability against crosses. Ferdinand does not need much explanation as we all know he is a very solid defender even considering WC's.
The real key though is Zito who had an amazing work-rate and would put in a shift against the in my eyes key-player Hidegkuti. Aldo has an incredibly long way to reach his forwards - Hidegkuti is the man with that difficult task of linking the both together.
Zito has the energy, stamina and work-rate to follow Hidegkuti who himself was very mobile and unpredictable in his movement. I don't think one can really stop a false- 9 from receiving the ball but Zito will be just behind him and making sure the next pass will be made under huge stress.
For me Stiles is echoing with his non-presence in your team Aldo.
The thing is with no out and out winger on the left, the RB can tuck in. This gives Scirea the chance to play his style. Also you need to decide the next steps in the Annah / fergu'son game
And Gentile pushing out into midfield for Maradona? That was not where he marked him in Spain 82, and come Mexico 86, Maradona had elevated himself to the stratospheric plane.
Nay - he can't. Maradona '82 was mentally on a very different level - that's perhaps the most important difference here. Gentile bullied him and made him cry. Maradona '86 only cried when he lifted the trophy.
No, he won't be coming out to midfield to stop him but as soon as Diego starts to make a run towards goal like he did a lot of times in 86, Gentile would make an early move on him. Danilo would be the one shielding the defense and it is him and Scirea who are both great readers of the game incharge of cutting the supply from Maradona while Gentile would put Diego off his rhythm when he's on a dribble.
You can't mark someone like a Maradona in 86 or a Garrincha in 62, hence I am systematically curbing his impact. He'd still en up setting up a goal or slotting one himself which is why my premise is always in outscoring you while keeping the damage to a minimum on my side.
But you forget what made Maradona the greatest
He could orchestrate the entire game like a puppet-master with his breathtaking vision and passing without having to dribble past the entire opposition
Yep, no one doubts his quality. Which is why you can see the amount of attention I am giving him. And, Scirea is one defender who has a record of maintaining his calm against Maradona right from World Cup in 82 to crucial Serie A games in late 80s. Him organizing the defense is the key here, and since he's playing with a deep backline, there's not much space for Diego to play passes behind the defense, hence he would need to get into the box a fair times himself which is when Danilo tracks him back while Gentile immediately will put in a tackle. While Scirea keeps the shape of the defense and anticipates a late pass.
Scirea's defensive nous is crucial here, really. The reason he had such an illustrious career and was the heartbeat of that Italian defense was because despite not being the quickest or strongest, he could think ahead of anyone, including Maradona like he showed in his career.
Voted for myself so as not to mislead Aldo (who has voted) and the voters on the score
Your deep backline = more space for Maradona and my midfield to dictate play against your midfield three, that surrenders control of the midfield platform and your supply will be strangulated
You see why I drafted Boniek and Careca now
On the other hand, I think my attacking players are enjoying a lot more space.
I have got the variety in attack. A skilled playmaker in Hidegkuti, a proper unstoppable dribbler in Garrincha, a hard working versatile player to provide the balance as well as quality in Kempes and a man who would get the maximum value of all this in Romario.
If you indeed manage to curb down Garrincha with Breitner completely on him and Maldini covering, that would leave plenty of space to others. Hidegkuti can easily pick a pass and with Kempes roaming all over the pitch, dragging defenders along himself, Romario would be acres of space and any chance created would be put away.
Also, With Breitner completely concentrating on Garrincha and no one starting on the left, your left side of completely empty while attacking.
This was the reason I started with Hidegkuti. With you having a great left side of defense, I needed someone who could keep the attack going if, and a BIG if, Garrincha finds it tough.
I have got the variety in attack. A skilled playmaker in Hidegkuti, a proper unstoppable dribbler in Garrincha, a hard working versatile player to provide the balance as well as quality in Kempes and a man who would get the maximum value of all this in Romario.
If you indeed manage to curb down Garrincha with Breitner completely on him and Maldini covering, that would leave plenty of space to others. Hidegkuti can easily pick a pass and with Kempes roaming all over the pitch, dragging defenders along himself, Romario would be acres of space and any chance created would be put away.
Also, With Breitner completely concentrating on Garrincha and no one starting on the left, your left side of completely empty while attacking.
This was the reason I started with Hidegkuti. With you having a great left side of defense, I needed someone who could keep the attack going if, and a BIG if, Garrincha finds it tough.
But that is how Scirea has successfully tackled Maradona. And that is the exact reason Baresi was found out, because Sacchi preferred a high line to suffocate the space for Maradona, but Maradona loved the space behind the defense and created chances for fun.
Right now, most important thing for Scirea is 1. He doesn't have to worry about Maradona splitting the defense and putting Careca 1v1 and 2. He has everything in front of him which is important for someone with the reading ability like he has to always be a step ahead of the attack.
Right now, Maradona would have to make a lot more of a solo effort if his service can be dealt with and someone like Gentile would be able to come into play with his physicality.
Yes, I have a proper defensive shield in Zito whereas Aldo's has gambled with an imbalanced midfield 3 against my midfield, surprised Stiles is not playing
Fair points. But Ballack had an absolute beast of a World Cup. Shouldn't be ignored. Also Kempes had bags and bags and bags of work rate. I'm sure he has a part to play in that midfield battle.
Ultimately the question is, can Aldo get the ball to his front key players (Garrincha Romario and Hidegkuti)? Of the answer is yes, he wins - it's as simple is that. I guess that's why the midfield battle is so key as ultimately it affects the outcome.
Unlike some of the other draft games, and surprisingly given the players on show, I can't see a goal fest here but rather a tight close game.
Sorry I forgot to elaborate on Zizinho's role, bit busy at the moment
Zizinho's role is to overload the opposition, linking up with Maradona and Boniek, where his creative passing will exploit openings created by those two. When Boniek switches to the left, Zizinho has free rein to attack the right-side channel
Zizinho's role is to overload the opposition, linking up with Maradona and Boniek, where his creative passing will exploit openings created by those two. When Boniek switches to the left, Zizinho has free rein to attack the right-side channel
Yeah I agree it is even, I basically just listed con's and pro's without listing the middle ground.
But like you say Ballack had a great WC unfortunately as an AM but his WC in 06 was not bad either. It was nothing noteworthy though, not bad but far from great. If I had seen Ballack as a AM instead of Hidegkuti and someone else in the CM place it would have been the vote winner.
Ballack in AM is just the sort of player to handle lack of possession with his straight game.
Bewildering, with Aldo playing an unbalanced midfield, and the midfield control to supply his frontline fully in my hands, voters are having me sinking like a ship....some explanation would help