All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft: SF - MJJ/Crappy vs diarm

[diarm]

You could have fooled me with the assertion that le tissier is going to run riot here without a dm marking him, something he rarely did against united's 4-4-2 with a one man midfield of modric. Jones and Cole are also helping out in attack without any worry for ginola or overmars while beckham assumes the role of superman by helping out in mid, attack and in defense at the same time.

Given that on his side, its only ferdinand who is recovering the ball, identifying the pass and then executing it I feel a lot more comfortable about our players recovering in time to guard le tissier without the need of a "batty" then having scholes doing the same on our end.

You're acting like Jones and Cole are going to be both gone up the field all the time when in reality you know it doesn't work like that. One of them will attack dependent on which side of the field the ball breaks or where the space is. Then you still have the back 3 with batty in deep positions in case the ball is lost and your side counters.

Also for all his talents, Bergkamp didn't score anything like the amount of goals from outside the box as Le Tissier did.

 

[antohan]

You could have fooled me with the assertion that le tissier is going to run riot here without a dm marking him, something he rarely did against united's 4-4-2 with a one man midfield of modric. Jones and Cole are also helping out in attack without any worry for ginola or overmars while beckham assumes the role of superman by helping out in mid, attack and in defense at the same time.

Given that on his side, its only ferdinand who is recovering the ball, identifying the pass and then executing it I feel a lot more comfortable about our players recovering in time to guard le tissier without the need of a "batty" then having scholes doing the same on our end.

I'd agree much of the tactical setup relies on Beckham having a good game. I'd expect him to be largely concerned with Scholes (rarely Overmars) and with providing an outball (not just Rio, that is sneaky mate ) then joining the attack offering a wide option when moves get more elaborate/slow-down.

He had the engine and all the tools in his locker to do a great job of it. In fact, he is probably the only player in the draft who could.

 

[dannymc1309]

I wouldnt call it double teaming, neither of us posted at the same time or posted excessively.

Lads this is a sandwich and Diarm is the meat in the middle, is there a ruling on AM post count or involvement

 

[MJJ]

You're acting like Jones and Cole are going to be both gone up the field all the time when in reality you know it doesn't work like that. One of them will attack dependent on which side of the field the ball breaks or where the space is. Then you still have the back 3 with batty in deep positions in case the ball is lost and your side counters.

Also for all his talents, Bergkamp didn't score anything like the amount of goals from outside the box as Le Tissier did.

Again, Bergkamp was about creating goals not scoring them. We have fowler upfront who would be delighted to do just that and scholes breaking into the box as well.

 

[MJJ]

Lads this is a sandwich and Diarm is the meat in the middle, is there a ruling on AM post count or involvement

Seriously? Both of us combined have less posts than diarm. If you have anything to add to the discussion please do so, otherwise there is no point to comments like this.

I'd agree much of the tactical setup relies on Beckham having a good game. I'd expect him to be largely concerned with Scholes (rarely Overmars) and with providing an outball (not just Rio, that is sneaky mate ) then joining the attack offering a wide option when moves get more elaborate/slow-down.

He had the engine and all the tools in his locker to do a great job of it. In fact, he is probably the only player in the draft who could.

According to diarm he will be helping out jones against overmars. If he isnt, overmars will have a lot of fun down that side, if he does then scholes will take control of the game in the middle.

 

[diarm]

Scholes played a lot of games in that time period. Particularly from 94-97. It' pretty clear to me that there was a game plan to counter Le Tissier.

And what happens if that attack fails? With both bale and cole tearing away, and we pass the ball to ginola?

The same thing that happens if we clear a ball to Bale when Ivanovic is up for a corner. That's football, there will be counter attacks into space
The difference is that when Ginola makes his run, Modric is less advanced than your two box to boxers and Batty is there covering. You can't lump a ball forward to Bergkamp and run the flank with Ginola at the same time.

When you lose the ball in attack, by your own admission, Keane and Scholes will be much more advanced. It leaves Bale, or Le Tiss, or Van Persie clear on your back 4.

And as you've said, you're going to be spending more time with the ball in my third than I am, thus giving me more opportunities to counter.

 

[antohan]

Lads this is a sandwich and Diarm is the meat in the middle, is there a ruling on AM post count or involvement

You can vote, but it doesn't count, same as diarm's. You should swap your vote to the rival team as diarm voting against himself looks odd and, in fact, like gamesmanship.

It will be the same in the final unless you are out and in that case your vote counts as you have no skin in it.

You, diarm, MJJ and crappy can't vote in the other semi (even if you lose, it's the same rule that applies to Gio/Theon and SkizzoPat and the fact you play first doesn't change it).

 

[MJJ]

Scholes played a lot of games in that time period. Particularly from 94-97. It' pretty clear to me that there was a game plan to counter Le Tissier.



The same thing that happens if we clear a ball to Bale when Ivanovic is up for a corner. That's football, there will be counter attacks into space
The difference is that when Ginola makes his run, Modric is less advanced than your two box to boxers and Batty is there covering. You can't lump a ball forward to Bergkamp and run the flank with Ginola at the same time.

When you lose the ball in attack, by your own admission, Keane and Scholes will be much more advanced. It leaves Bale, or Le Tiss, or Van Persie clear on your back 4.

And as you've said, you're going to be spending more time with the ball in my third than I am, thus giving me more opportunities to counter.

Why would you assume that both keane and scholes will attack together all the time if neither of your fullbacks will?

While also making sure we create better goal scoring opportunites. We can afford to pass the ball around a bit to wait for a goal scoring opportunity to arise, you wont have that luxury with most of your team playing so deep.

Corners are different than routine play though, you will have most of your team back as well and we will have defenders around those who stay forward.

 

[diarm]

I'm fine with both lads posting. It's been great debate so far.

@MJJ, let's keep that debate up though. Saying you just ignored my tactics as I laid them out for you because I didn't include your players isn't really on.
I expected you to know where your players are

 

[Skizzo]

Lads this is a sandwich and Diarm is the meat in the middle, is there a ruling on AM post count or involvement

As long as they aren't both posting constantly at the same time, AMs can be involved in the discussions.

I think they've both tried to avoid doing it too much here, but it can be tricky when a point comes up they both feel the need to address.

It's a slippery slope, since banning them completely would be unfair, but ganging up is tough too...

Although the mental image you've stirred up there is disturbing

 

[antohan]

According to diarm he will be helping out jones against overmars. If he isnt, overmars will have a lot of fun down that side, if he does then scholes will take control of the game in the middle.

Jones is a very competent rightback, I'd leave Overmars to him out wide every day of the week before leaving Scholes utterly loose through the middle. That leaves Terry to make the call over staying central, coming out for cover if needed or some halfway house. It should be Terry making that decision based on an assessment of danger, not Beckham running around chasing the ball.

Goals are scored in the box or right outside (in front) of it. You protect the box first and foremost.

 

[diarm]

Why would you assume that both keane and scholes will attack together all the time if neither of your fullbacks will?

Because you keep telling me how my defenders are going to be overrun when I have a man extra at the back than you do!!!

 

[dannymc1309]

I will switch my vote so Diarm can vote for himself again, as explained above it was an honest mistake.

Seriously? Both of us combined have less posts than diarm. If you have anything to add to the discussion please do so, otherwise there is no point to comments like this.

The comments have been blatantly tongue in cheek, however whether your post count combined equalled Diarm or not I fail to see how this makes a difference? A manager can surely post as many times as he likes defending his own team, I only questioned the combination in reply as I don't recall seeing such a 2v1 so far. However as I said it was obviously tongue in cheek because the disadvantage is partly my fault as I can't get online much today to post hence I managed one meaningful post on the first page and just checked back recently. With the talk of scan voters, if a scan voter saw that there was two regular posters arguing against Diarm it could look like one is a manager and the other is just a particularly enthused and self involved but otherwise neutral poster.

 

[diarm]

OK enough on the who's posting what lads. Let's just talk football please.

According to diarm he will be helping out jones against overmars. If he isnt, overmars will have a lot of fun down that side, if he does then scholes will take control of the game in the middle.

I have spent more time about how Beckham will add defensively to the middle than I have on him helping Jones. Our defensive lineup shows that quite clearly.

 

[MJJ]

I'm fine with both lads posting. It's been great debate so far.

@MJJ, let's keep that debate up though. Saying you just ignored my tactics as I laid them out for you because I didn't include your players isn't really on.
I expected you to know where your players are

Sorry diarm, but really there is no point to analyzing attacking strategies like that without the defenders there. For example. I can post my how my attack will operate while attacking with your teammates missing and point to bergkamp being completely free and running the attack but that obviously wont happen here.

Jones is a very competent rightback, I'd leave Overmars to him out wide every day of the week before leaving Scholes utterly loose through the middle. That leaves Terry to make the call over staying central, coming out for cover if needed or some halfway house. It should be Terry making that decision based on an assessment of danger, not Beckham running around chasing the ball.

Goals are scored in the box or right outside (in front) of it. You protect the box first and foremost.

That isnt what is happening here though, as per diarm beckham is helping out jones against overmars. And I still cant accept the fact that a very competent right back played only 7 teams for england during a time period in which he played [retty much every game for liverpool and was then coverted into a left back to accomodate a midfielder.

Because you keep telling me how my defenders are going to be overrun when I have a man extra at the back than you do!!!

Have I said that? My stance has been that since we will have more of the ball, we will be able to create better goal scoring opportunites.

I will switch my vote so Diarm can vote for himself again, as explained above it was an honest mistake.



The comments have been blatantly tongue in cheek, however whether your post count combined equalled Diarm or not I fail to see how this makes a difference? A manager can surely post as many times as he likes defending his own team, I only questioned the combination in reply as I don't recall seeing such a 2v1 so far. However as I said it was obviously tongue in cheek because the disadvantage is partly my fault as I can't get online much today to post hence I managed one meaningful post on the first page and just checked back recently. With the talk of scan voters, if a scan voter saw that there was two regular posters arguing against Diarm it could look like one is a manager and the other is just a particularly enthused and self involved but otherwise neutral poster.

Anto hasnt been that bad

 

[dannymc1309]

Although the mental image you've stirred up there is disturbing

Just trying to lighten the mood

Very close game, time for a late set piece winner with a well delivered ball from Becks targeting our cnut at the back.

 

[MJJ]

Got to run for a bit, @crappycraperson can you take over if not busy.

 

[antohan]

As long as they aren't both posting constantly at the same time, AMs can be involved in the discussions.

I think they've both tried to avoid doing it too much here, but it can be tricky when a point comes up they both feel the need to address.

It's a slippery slope, since banning them completely would be unfair, but ganging up is tough too...

Although the mental image you've stirred up there is disturbing

Aye, I see nothing wrong here. If there's any degree of 2v1 I sure am more than making up for it. Not deliberate, just think there are some crucial aspects of the game which were flying under the radar and some arguments which require qualification.

 

[antohan]

That isnt what is happening here though, as per diarm beckham is helping out jones against overmars.

Occasionally, yes, but his diagram of his shape when he defends has Beckham tucked in and very much in an area where Scholes is the main detail.

And I still cant accept the fact that a very competent right back played only 7 teams for england during a time period in which he played [retty much every game for liverpool and was then coverted into a left back to accomodate a midfielder.

You are basing that on inferences from stats as a counter to the opinion of people who actually saw him in action. He was a good right back, I can't think of many right backs who would be distinctly better than him. Mind you, it's not the best pool for rightbacks either, I'm not saying he is Djalma Santos but Overmars isn't George Best either.

 

[diarm]

Sorry diarm, but really there is no point to analyzing attacking strategies like that without the defenders there. For example. I can post my how my attack will operate while attacking with your teammates missing and point to bergkamp being completely free and running the attack but that obviously wont happen here.

My defenders are there. That's how I'm set up defensively.

I would set up my defensive positioning and responsibilities before the game. It is up to you explain how your attack is going to break it down and you don't get to do that by telling everyone that Beckham is going to be busy helping Jones or Batty is going to be up the pitch or Cole and Jones are going to be stranded in attack when that is clearly not based on my instructions.

You do it by looking at the positioning I've put out and the tactics i've specified and explaining or showing where you would find the gaps.

That isnt what is happening here though, as per diarm beckham is helping out jones against overmars.

Again, where are you getting this from?

And I still cant accept the fact that a very competent right back played only 7 teams for england during a time period in which he played [retty much every game for liverpool and was then coverted into a left back to accomodate a midfielder.

Myself and others have said all there is to say on Jones. I can't explain any more so I'll just hope more voters saw him play than didn't.

Have I said that? My stance has been that since we will have more of the ball, we will be able to create better goal scoring opportunites.

Yes! Every time you tell us that Beckham and Jones will be occupied by Overmars, that Bergkamp will be left free to receive long balls, that Scholes will have the run of the midfield or that Ginola will be free down the left.

 

[Skizzo]

Steve Bruce never played for England. Sometimes the number of caps a player has is a bit of a crap yard stick to judge them by. Paul Scholes with 66 as the best English midfielder of his generation doesn't count against him. The argument of him being shunted out left them raises the hypothetical question of why would they move him if he was so good in the middle? It's a bit of a flawed argument.

 

[sajeev]

I think you highly overrate Tissier. Lampard has much better pedigree than him.

as i posted earlier, Le Tissier is difficult to judge and it becomes a matter of opinions. However, do you really Lampard could have ensured Southampton stayed up all those years on his own. They went down immediately the season after. Pedigree yes, but in terms of performances in big matches, a bit of magic there is no comparison - Le Tissier is way ahead

 

[diarm]

as i posted earlier, Le Tissier is difficult to judge and it becomes a matter of opinions. However, do you really Lampard could have ensured Southampton stayed up all those years on his own. They went down immediately the season after. Pedigree yes, but in terms of performances in big matches, a bit of magic there is no comparison - Le Tissier is way ahead

And more to the point, he is better for the system I have employed. I'm not sure I can think of a better player to perform this exact role of receiving ball from deep and making something happen in the space between halfway and the opponents box. He would revel in this set up.

We've barely even spoken about Van Persie and the challenge he is going to pose Southgate and McGrath. How deep are they going to hold their line? Too deep and they give oceans of space for Le Tissier and for Bale to move into. To high and Van Persie is going to have a field day off balls from Modric and Beckham. I'm interested to see where the line will be held while the ball is in my half of the field.

 

[crappycraperson]

as i posted earlier, Le Tissier is difficult to judge and it becomes a matter of opinions. However, do you really Lampard could have ensured Southampton stayed up all those years on his own. They went down immediately the season after. Pedigree yes, but in terms of performances in big matches, a bit of magic there is no comparison - Le Tissier is way ahead

Lampard is not part of this match up but I will leave this discussion to a different thread. Throughout your voting and comments in these drafts though you have always underrated modern players for old vintage ones.

 

[crappycraperson]

@dannymc1309 I had at different points mentioned that we don't want this to be a double teaming thing and even asked diarm to raise a flag if turns into that. Regardless it is not have been 2 v 1 affair anyway since antohan is pretty much arguing for diarm's non stop now.

@antohan - Your point and vote about this match up has been made. What is the point now of banging on about it non stop and doing diarm's job for him? He is doing a fine job anyway defending and winning vote for his own side.

 

[sajeev]

Lampard is not part of this match up but I will leave this discussion to a different thread. Throughout your voting and comments in these drafts though you have always underrated modern players for old vintage ones.

i don't disagree. am maybe just over-compensating but in this case i am right

 

[crappycraperson]

Steve Bruce never played for England. Sometimes the number of caps a player has is a bit of a crap yard stick to judge them by. Paul Scholes with 66 as the best English midfielder of his generation doesn't count against him. The argument of him being shunted out left them raises the hypothetical question of why would they move him if he was so good in the middle? It's a bit of a flawed argument.

There is a difference between the two. Scholes was shunted out left and also played in a team set up not rounded for his strengths. Le Tiessier could not get into it at all.

As far as Bruce thing goes, he is lauded as a good defender but no goes about him being a difference maker in a defense or start comparing him to likes of Rio, Vidic etc.

Le Tissier has just been build up here to a level that he simply does not belong to. Anyway that drum has been beaten up too many times now. We are simply going in circles. @diarm has made his case and we have made ours. I believe there is very less discussion to be had at this point unless some tactical change occurs.

 

[Skizzo]

i don't disagree. am maybe just over-compensating but in this case i am right

Take off those rose tinted glasses for a moment

Just kidding

 

[crappycraperson]

Blood hell @Aldo what a cruel switch of vote

 

[diarm]

I think it all went a bit mad there but all's well now and I'd like to think it's a cracking match between two fine teams.

I was all over the place for a while! Was trying to fix some online banking thing that was about to cost me a load of money, I was trying to keep track of all the points and respond on here, and then herself came in and stuck an iPad in my face giving out about her Spotify not working!

It's all calm now though and as I see it, the crucial match arguments for each side seem to be:

Team MJJ/Crappy
They will have more of the ball in midfield. They will be able to build attacks patiently and wait for opportunities to set Bergkamp or Fowler free.
Overmars will get at Jones and cause him problems down the left hand flank.
Ivanovic will deal with Bale and nullify his threat on the right hand flank.

Team Diarm/Danny
We will be deeper and more compact in defence, keeping bodies behind the ball and looking to win the ball back in our third of the pitch.
We will restrict the space their attacking players have to move in and after regaining possession, look to move it quickly into the space behind their midfield.
In Modric and Beckham we have the players to move this ball quickly and accurately. In Bale, Le Tissier and Van Persie, we have the players to exploit this space, especially as it is still unclear how deep our opponents will maintain their defensive line.

 

[Moby]

Blood hell @Aldo what a cruel switch of vote

Sorry, had to go against the heart on this one. For all the talk of Le God making the difference, and I agree he will have a great game here, my money for man of the match performance is on Rio Ferdinand.

 

[Skizzo]

There is a difference between the two. Scholes was shunted out left and also played in a team set up not rounded for his strengths. Le Tiessier could not get into it at all.

As far as Bruce thing goes, he is lauded as a good defender but no goes about him being a difference maker in a defense or start comparing him to likes of Rio, Vidic etc.

Le Tissier has just been build up here to a level that he simply does not belong to. Anyway that drum has been beaten up too many times now. We are simply going in circles. @diarm has made his case and we have made ours. I believe there is very less discussion to be had at this point unless some tactical change occurs.

It was in regards to Jones caps, not le Tissier. And my point still stands that caps isnt always the best judge of how good a player was.

No reason for you guys to stop discussing things though. Think it's been really good so far in terms of activity and discussions. Although it can seem tedious as a manager since you feel like you keep having to make the same points over and over again

 

[diarm]

I can't believe there is still 16 hours to go. I'm going to be calling for oxygen on the touchline at this rate.

 

[Gio]

And I still cant accept the fact that a very competent right back played only 7 teams for england during a time period in which he played [retty much every game for liverpool and was then coverted into a left back to accomodate a midfielder.

On the first point it's a decent one to make but you have to remember that Graham Taylor was in charge and some of his selections were odd to say the least. For Euro 92 with injuries to Jones, Stevens and Dixon, his right-back for the tournament was stodgy centre-half Keith Curle. That was typical Taylor, quite happy to fling a centre-half or centre-midfielder out wide so they could throw a few tackles in and head the ball.

On the second, I'm pretty sure Jones could play on both flanks and had operated on the left before he joined Liverpool from Crewe.

 

[chetan]

If @diarm wins this he might have the team that may go on and win the entire thing.

 

[sajeev]

Blood hell @Aldo what a cruel switch of vote

still loads of time - not so cruel

 

[antohan]

@antohan - Your point and vote about this match up has been made. What is the point now of banging on about it non stop and doing diarm's job for him? He is doing a fine job anyway defending and winning vote for his own side.

I'll keep banging on about anything I want. I'm getting a bit fed up with you telling people to leave gamethreads. They are made for discussions, the whole point of the drafts is discussions, and I reckon I was having a decent one with MJJ where we explored many issues rather than banging on about a single one.

FWIW, I did put diarm in his place when he presented that 6-3 as almost a one-man Maradonesque show by Le Tissier. It wasn't at all, I was there, I watched it. Did you? Did he? Same shite with Rob Jones being assessed on caps... I won't shut up in the face of spurious arguments.

It's a semi-final, if you guys were new to this I would probably step back a fair bit more, but you aren't so you'd better have better arguments than telling people to feck off because you don't like their opinions.

 

[diarm]

FWIW, I did put diarm in his place when he presented that 6-3 as almost a one-man Maradonesque show by Le Tissier. It wasn't at all, I was there, I watched it. Did you? Did he? Same shite with Rob Jones being assessed on caps... I won't shut up in the face of spurious arguments..

I did although I wasn't at it. I watched most Southampton games between 94 and 98 as my dad was working down there and we used to get tickets.

Your point was a fair one in that he wasn't the star of the show, although I still feel somewhat validated by the fact he scored that day and as I remember it, certainly didn't put in a bad performance.

Agree with you on the discussion. I was happy to debate with both managers and I think some of the input from outside (both for and against me) so far has been great.

 

[antohan]

I did although I wasn't at it. I watched most Southampton games between 94 and 98 as my dad was working down there and we used to get tickets.

Your point was a fair one in that he wasn't the star of the show, although I still feel somewhat validated by the fact he scored that day and as I remember it, certainly didn't put in a bad performance.

Agree with you on the discussion. I was happy to debate with both managers and I think some of the input from outside (both for and against me) so far has been great.

Sure, he did have a decent game but "pulling strings in a 6-3 win" against United sells something extraordinary. The ones stealing the show were others that day (as I said, I reckon Beckham had a better game even being on the losing side). I've seen him play better games against us, which isn't surprising as that day everything was ticking nicely and Keane was off the pitch, so the game didn't really require a barnstorming performance form him.

 

[diarm]

Sure, he did have a decent game but "pulling strings in a 6-3 win" against United sells something extraordinary. The ones stealing the show were others that day (as I said, I reckon Beckham had a better game even being on the losing side). I've seen him play better games against us, which isn't surprising as that day everything was ticking nicely and Keane was off the pitch, so the game didn't really require a barnstorming performance form him.

Yeah fair enough. I'll hold my hand up on that one!

Beckham scored a deadly freekick that day didn't he? And had another assist from a corner I think?