All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft: SF - MJJ/Crappy vs diarm

[diarm]

Wasnt dixon the first choice RB for england before neville? So even discounting neville, jones was never an england international.

Jones would've been first choice for the 92 Euros (I'm aware this is pre-Prem) but lost out to injury. He regained his form and fitness after that but never for more than a short amount of time between injuries.

His form between spells on the sidelines was good enough to warrant 7 more caps up until 95 which is amazing really considering what he went through.

 

[diarm]

I'm doing some interesting research on the Ivanovic dominating Bale wisdom that I really should have done in my first game of the tournament.
I'll know in future not to take such things at face value.

Gareth Bale moved from Left Back to Left Wing at the beginning of the 2010/11 season. After the move, he played against Chelsea 5 times over the next 3 seasons before he left for Spain.

In those 5 games, Ivanovic lined out at right back for Chelsea only once.

So far from having this awful, long standing draught against the Serb. Bale has only faced him directly once, and that during his first season as a winger and well before his peak of the final two seasons at Spurs.

I think that puts a slightly different slant on our attacking capability down the left.

 

[diarm]

It's certainly not a record anywhere near as bad as Bergkamps lack of goals against Terry and Ferdinand.

 

[MJJ]

Jones would've been first choice for the 92 Euros (I'm aware this is pre-Prem) but lost out to injury. He regained his form and fitness after that but never for more than a short amount of time between injuries.

His form between spells on the sidelines was good enough to warrant 7 more caps up until 95 which is amazing really considering what he went through.

A quick google shows that from 92-95 he played 30,38,31 and 33 times for liverpool in the league. So he was rarely injured, 7 caps for that return is extremely poor imo and suggests he wasnt that great of a fullback.

Neville made his england debut in 95/96 btw so he wasnt competing with him either.

 

[MJJ]

I'm doing some interesting research on the Ivanovic dominating Bale wisdom that I really should have done in my first game of the tournament.
I'll know in future not to take such things at face value.

Gareth Bale moved from Left Back to Left Wing at the beginning of the 2010/11 season. After the move, he played against Chelsea 5 times over the next 3 seasons before he left for Spain.

In those 5 games, Ivanovic lined out at right back for Chelsea only once.

So far from having this awful, long standing draught against the Serb. Bale has only faced him directly once, and that during his first season as a winger and well before his peak of the final two seasons at Spurs.

I think that puts a slightly different slant on our attacking capability down the left.

Bale used to drift in from the left/played centrally for spurs after his break through season so not sure how relevant ivanovic not being at right back really is.

 

[Gio]

Wasnt dixon the first choice RB for england before neville? So even discounting neville, jones was never an england international.

Jones was terribly unfortunate with injuries. Dixon wouldn't have had a look-in to be honest had Jones stayed fit. Even Neville would have struggled. Obviously though we're not judging him on what he could have achieved but what he showed in a Liverpool shirt in the early-to-mid 1990s.

It is disingenuous to compare wingers' scoring records in 90s to scoring records of wing forwards now. They played different role and had different demands than ones to likes of Bale in a 4231.

Even someone like Giggs during the same era had a similar or even worse record than Overmars, I doubt you would try to disparage him.

Aye, that's a pet peeve. The likes of Figo, Giggs, Donadoni, Beckham usually played in hard-grafting midfield units, worked the wide channel relentlessly and played on average much deeper because it was a more competitive era when they weren't parked on the edge of the opposition's box for 80 minutes.

Also, feel beckham is so overrated in these draft games. It seems like there isnt a fullback in the world who can limit his influence. Here pearce will stick close to him and prevent him from creating goal scoring chances.

Oddly though I don't think Beckham has ever tasted success in a draft. Neither has Terry though, so history's against you here diarm!

 

[diarm]

A quick google shows that from 92-95 he played 30,38,31 and 33 times for liverpool in the league. So he was rarely injured, 7 caps for that return is extremely poor imo and suggests he wasnt that great of a fullback.

Neville made his england debut in 95/96 btw so he wasnt competing with him either.

Jones broke through when he was very young but a bad injury set him back. He bounced back, and was brilliant for Liverpool between 93 and 95. He was very much back in the England fold by 95 when he had the back problems that in the end forced him out. At that stage he was only 25 years old. Weren't too many 25 year old defenders with buckets of caps back in those days.

He's not my strongest defender but he's a lot stronger than Pearce and with Beckham in front of him, he has some great protection. Anyone who saw Jones play, knows how good a defender he was and I'm very happy with him in this team.

 

[diarm]

Aye, that's a pet peeve. The likes of Figo, Giggs, Donadoni, Beckham usually played in hard-grafting midfield units, worked the wide channel relentlessly and played on average much deeper because it was a more competitive era when they weren't parked on the edge of the opposition's box for 80 minutes.

I get that I do, but Overmars was not that type of winger. He was very much an advanced attacking winger who by rights should have a better assists and goals record than he does. Especially if my opponent is claiming he will tear Jones to shreds.

 

[Gio]

Good, high-quality debate lads.

 

[diarm]

Oddly though I don't think Beckham has ever tasted success in a draft. Neither has Terry though, so history's against you here diarm!

That seems incredible when you consider what they've both achieved!

I don't think we could really have set up better to get the best from both as well. Terry would excel with the pace of Jones, Rio and Cole around him while the idea of Beckham linking with Van Persie off the shoulder is just mouth watering.

 

[Gio]

That seems incredible when you consider what they've both achieved!

I don't think we could really have set up better to get the best from both as well. Terry would excel with the pace of Jones, Rio and Cole around him while the idea of Beckham linking with Van Persie off the shoulder is just mouth watering.

Terry's image is that poisonous he's barely won a game never mind the whole shebang.

 

[diarm]

Bale used to drift in from the left/played centrally for spurs after his break through season so not sure how relevant ivanovic not being at right back really is.

Bale used to drift in from the left/played centrally for spurs after his break through season so not sure how relevant ivanovic not being at right back really is.

Bale played very much on the left. Ivanovic faced him once. Another of the games Ivanovic didn't feature in at all.
In the other 3 games, this is how they lined out:

 

[diarm]

Terry's image is that poisonous he's barely won a game never mind the whole shebang.

Oh he's a total cnut. I have two of them as well in himself and Cole, and I'd say even Batty's mum wouldn't say he was her favourite son!
Doesn't mean they weren't great players though.

 

[diarm]

Hopefully people will be able to look past their personality flaws and see the strength, balance and attacking effectiveness of our side.

We have a great keeper, I think the best defence in the draft, the best two wingers on the pitch, who offer totally different attacking qualities and two phenomenal goalscorers up front.

There's no doubt that Keane and Schole are magnificent in the middle but Batty and Modric were fine players too. They have the edge there but is that edge enough to win the game? Keane and Scholes rarely played in a side with the weaker keeper, defenders and wingers on the pitch.

 

[sajeev]

i wouldn't normally vote for a team with Terry and Bale, but in this case I am inclined to think diarm's team could win this match-up. for me the main thing is only McGrath is going to be really up to the task, and that isn't enough especially when you have Le Tissier on the other team and Shay Given in goal

 

[Annahnomoss]

i wouldn't normally vote for a team with Terry and Bale, but in this case I am inclined to think diarm's team could win this match-up. for me the main thing is only McGrath is going to be really up to the task, and that isn't enough especially when you have Le Tissier on the other team and Shay Given in goal

Finally a goalkeeper made the difference!

 

[Donaldo]

Thought MJJ got lucky in the last round with a Keane-Scholes love-in...think diarm has much more of a solid unit.

 

[diarm]

Finally a goalkeeper made the difference!

A mini victory in itself!!!

Another factor for people to consider if they're on the fence is set pieces. I have David Beckham for free kicks and Le Tissier for penalties - Probably the two finest exponents of those two arts the league has seen.

Modric, Bale and Van Persie can all strike a mean dead ball as well. For wide free kicks and corners, I have Bale, Terry and Ferdinand attacking a defence who are all in and around 6ft. None of them giants and I can see Terry in particular getting on the end of at least a couple of balls.

 

[crappycraperson]

It's certainly not a record anywhere near as bad as Bergkamps lack of goals against Terry and Ferdinand.

For someone who says he is a "huge" fan of Bergkamp, you don't quite seem to understand why he is rated as one of the best PL players ever. His scoring record for Arsenal is decidedly average regardless of which defenders he faced. He does provide a goal threat but his primary importance is to stamp his creative authority on the pitch.Also comparing his record against Rio and Terry is again not correct since his peak for Arsenal came before Rio and Terry entered their own peak. His best season for Arsenal was 97-98 when Arsenal won the double, a season where he won player of the year as well.

MJJ put it best. Supposedly Batty is strangling Bergkamp out of space, Le Tessier is largely playing as a pure 10 ( in your last matchup many folks already comments how he is not active enough to regularly participate in midfield battle ) leaving Modric to run the midfield alone against Keane and Scholes?

That is before considering

- Keane is the best box to box midfielder to play in PL who is going to boss the central area while stiffing any central space modric or Tissier might want to exploit.

- Scholes is simply the superior version of Modric. He will be even better here since he has someone like Bergkamp to link up with in front of opposition box and pretty much make Batty's job untenable.

Engine of our team - Keane + Scholes + Bergkamp are going to run your side ragged. They have more than good supporting case in Overmars, Ginola and Fowler to round off the domination.

Edit - did not know that MJJ was posting otherwise won't have replied.

 

[MJJ]

Finally a goalkeeper made the difference!

He voted against EAP for having shay given before as well.

Hopefully people will be able to look past their personality flaws and see the strength, balance and attacking effectiveness of our side.

We have a great keeper, I think the best defence in the draft, the best two wingers on the pitch, who offer totally different attacking qualities and two phenomenal goalscorers up front.

There's no doubt that Keane and Schole are magnificent in the middle but Batty and Modric were fine players too. They have the edge there but is that edge enough to win the game? Keane and Scholes rarely played in a side with the weaker keeper, defenders and wingers on the pitch.

Our wingers are on par, dont think bale,beckham are any better than overmars,ginola. Cole and Ferdinand are clearly superior to our defenders, while its closer with mcgrath and ivanovic is better than jones. Midfield wise, we absolutely own you and not a lot between fowler and van persie either.

Jones was terribly unfortunate with injuries. Dixon wouldn't have had a look-in to be honest had Jones stayed fit. Even Neville would have struggled. Obviously though we're not judging him on what he could have achieved but what he showed in a Liverpool shirt in the early-to-mid 1990s.

Aye, that's a pet peeve. The likes of Figo, Giggs, Donadoni, Beckham usually played in hard-grafting midfield units, worked the wide channel relentlessly and played on average much deeper because it was a more competitive era when they weren't parked on the edge of the opposition's box for 80 minutes.


Oddly though I don't think Beckham has ever tasted success in a draft. Neither has Terry though, so history's against you here diarm!

Based on those stats he pretty much played almost every game for liverpool during that period and didnt get a look in and was then shifted to left back to accomodate a midfielder in mcateer. That doesnt seem like a world class fullback to me or someone who is better than ivanovic.

Yeah he rarely won but the arguments against him are tiring. You can put maldini against him and people will still push the straight path to goal argument as he doesnt need to beat his opposing left back.

Jones broke through when he was very young but a bad injury set him back. He bounced back, and was brilliant for Liverpool between 93 and 95. He was very much back in the England fold by 95 when he had the back problems that in the end forced him out. At that stage he was only 25 years old. Weren't too many 25 year old defenders with buckets of caps back in those days.

He's not my strongest defender but he's a lot stronger than Pearce and with Beckham in front of him, he has some great protection. Anyone who saw Jones play, knows how good a defender he was and I'm very happy with him in this team.

Pearce was an england international and probably the second best left back(after cole) that england has had in recent times. So no, he isnt a lot stronger than pearce.

He was also a left back at that time.

Bale played very much on the left. Ivanovic faced him once. Another of the games Ivanovic didn't feature in at all.
In the other 3 games, this is how they lined out:

Find the average position/heat map of bale through out that period he started playing more and more central after his first season and would cut in more often.

 

[MJJ]

Didntk now crappy was here, will leave it to him.

 

[crappycraperson]

Didntk now crappy was here, will leave it to him.

No I am leaving.. continue.. i will post after dinner may be

 

[diarm]

For someone who says he is a "huge" fan of Bergkamp, you don't quite seem to understand why he is rated as one of the best PL players ever. His scoring record for Arsenal is decidedly average regardless of which defenders he faced. He does provide a goal threat but his primary importance is to stamp his creative authority on the pitch.Also comparing his record against Rio and Terry is again not correct since his peak for Arsenal came before Rio and Terry entered their own peak. His best season for Arsenal was 97-98 when Arsenal won the double, a season where he won player of the year as well.

Honestly, I was born in Rotterdam and have spent my life supporting Holland in tournaments Ireland didn't qualify for (ie. a lot). I have a great understanding of Bergkamps abilities. From the last two games, it feels like if I don't throw in the towel and say Bergkamp would win the game all by himself, I am somehow undermining how good he was.

I'm not, but if all a side needs to do is pick Bergkamp then these drafts have little purpose and Arsenal should have won a lot more leagues than they did.
I have as good a defence as you could possibly put in front of him and one of the better defensive midfielders the league has seen, occupying the spaces Bergkamp would prefer to have to himself.

MJJ put it best. Supposedly Batty is strangling Bergkamp out of space, Le Tessier is largely playing as a pure 10 ( in your last matchup many folks already comments how he is not active enough to regularly participate in midfield battle ) leaving Modric to run the midfield alone against Keane and Scholes?

I have never said Batty will be solely focused on Bergkamp. He will be the shield in front of the back four and will be a challenge for anyone to get through on their way to Terry, Ferdinand and Seaman. But he will be in that area that Bergkamp likes to create his magic. He will make life tough for him.

- Keane is the best box to box midfielder to play in PL who is going to boss the central area while stiffing any central space modric or Tissier might want to exploit.

- Scholes is simply the superior version of Modric. He will be even better here since he has someone like Bergkamp to link up with in front of opposition box and pretty much make Batty's job untenable.

In stark contrast to the role Batty will perform, Keane and Scholes seem to be doing it all in your midfield. In your formation they are both way too advanced to effectively attack to the extent you are suggesting and counter Le Tissier in the spaces in which he is so deadly.

Scholes is superior going forward but he is castly inferior when you don't have the ball. Modric is tenacious and effective without the yellow cards.

Engine of our team - Keane + Scholes + Bergkamp are going to run your side ragged. They have more than good supporting case in Overmars, Ginola and Fowler to round off the domination..

You are also completely neglecting Beckham who's withdrawn positioning adds an extra man to our midfield when we are not in possession. Beckham was fantastic in this role at United, hard working and with strong awareness in defence.


I honestly don't believe it's unreasonable that Le Tissier, without a dedicated defensive midfielder and facing McGrath, Southgate and Given, would cause as much, if not more damage than Bergkamp up against Batty, Terry, Ferdinand and Seaman.

Bergkamp was the better player, but I have the better players countering and Le Tissier was the more likely to score goals.

 

[MJJ]

@diarm you are simply asking too much of your players.

You state that overmars wont help out in defense but jones will regularly overlap. Doesnt this leave you expose to counters at the back? If overmars isnt tracking jones.

Batty is sitting in front of a defense and Tissier is playing as a number 10. Who exactly is going to help you retain the ball in the middle? Modric and ?? Beckham who is simultaneously helping out the fullback, playing mid against keane,scholes, supplying balls to RVP and playing as a winger?

The way you have set up, we will have the majority of possession, given almost all of our midfielders are technically better at retaining the ball compared to yours so it stands to reason we will create more chances against a superior defense while you will create far less against a worse defense.

 

[sajeev]

Le Tissier is more likely to score goals. Unfortunately, we don't know how good he really could have been because he didn't play in Europe and for England. Even in the league, I am not sure we have really seen the most effective use of him. So it seems unfair to compare him to Bergkamp, but it is mighty close and in this game I have a feeling he will be more effective

 

[MJJ]

Le Tissier is more likely to score goals. Unfortunately, we don't know how good he really could have been because he didn't play in Europe and for England. Even in the league, I am not sure we have really seen the most effective use of him. So it seems unfair to compare him to Bergkamp, but it is mighty close and in this game I have a feeling he will be more effective

Could doesnt come into it though, we are judging him based on his performance in the league. Not his potential or would be performance if he had moved on from southampton. For all we know, he could have flopped at a bigger club where the play didnt go through him like a lot of players have.

And he would be more likely to score goals but diarm's problem here is that his side wont have enough of the ball since they are losing the midfield battle and badly at that too. Dont think having le tissier in there helps with that.

 

[diarm]

Our wingers are on par, dont think bale,beckham are any better than overmars,ginola. Cole and Ferdinand are clearly superior to our defenders, while its closer with mcgrath and ivanovic is better than jones. Midfield wise, we absolutely own you and not a lot between fowler and van persie either.

I'm sorry but they're simply not. Bale and Beckham made more goals, scored more goals, worked harder and more effectively in defence and contribute more to my gameplan in their two different styles than Ginola and Overmars. You don't have a winger who provided the vision and passing of Beckham or his set piece ability.

Based on those stats he pretty much played almost every game for liverpool during that period and didnt get a look in and was then shifted to left back to accomodate a midfielder in mcateer. That doesnt seem like a world class fullback to me or someone who is better than ivanovic.

I think Jones is excellent but I haven't said he was better than Ivanovic. I just think that Bale is much more effective and dangerous here than Overmars is and Jones was a better player than you're giving him credit for. People who watched him have already said as much on this thread.

Yeah he rarely won but the arguments against him are tiring. You can put maldini against him and people will still push the straight path to goal argument as he doesnt need to beat his opposing left back.

Beckham provided a lot more than just his long ball. He could beat a man and I fancy his chances against this era Pearce. He was brilliant at putting an overlapping fullback away. He could link well with Modric and Le Tissier and he brought a good goal threat from in and around the area.

Even with all that, you must admit that the Beckham ball to Van Persie's movement is a valid option in this set up. Just because it's been said before doesn't make it wrong.

Find the average position/heat map of bale through out that period he started playing more and more central after his first season and would cut in more often.

I'm not sure how that's relevant? I was simply refuting the claim that Ivanovic played right back (as he is today) and had Bale in his pocket on multiple occasions. He wasn't even on the same side of the pitch for 2 of the games, wasn't on the field for another and was right sided centre back for a 4th.

Ivanovic is a fine defender but he is up against Bale and Cole on the left hand side today and will have a real challenge on his hands.

 

[diarm]

@diarm you are simply asking too much of your players.

You state that overmars wont help out in defense but jones will regularly overlap. Doesnt this leave you expose to counters at the back? If overmars isnt tracking jones.

The beauty of having Batty in his position is that we can allow our fullbacks freedom and still retain 3 at the back. You have said yourself that Keane will be box to box and as such will be an extremely busy boy tracking backwards and forwards in your two man midfield. I'm not sure I'm the manager asking too much of his players here at all.

Batty is sitting in front of a defense and Tissier is playing as a number 10. Who exactly is going to help you retain the ball in the middle? Modric and ?? Beckham who is simultaneously helping out the fullback, playing mid against keane,scholes, supplying balls to RVP and playing as a winger?

You need to have a read through my tactics. We are deliberately avoiding going toe to toe with your midfield. We understand that you will have plenty of the ball in the middle. Where you won't find space is in our final third. Here we will look to win the ball back through Batty and our defenders and move it quickly.

Beckham in his role and Modric will both be available in midfield to receive possession. Rio can carry out better than any defender in the draft. Then we have options that completely bypass your midfield:

1. We can go left to Bale as a classic counterattack with pace.
2. We can put the ball long to Le Tissier in your half. We have won the ball back from your attack so it's unreasonable to think Keane can get back quickly enough to prevent Le Tissier receiving it. To counter this you can bring a centre back out to meet Le Tissier in which case you run the risk of us...
3. Using Modric or Beckham to pick out Van Persie moving off the shoulder of the sole remaining centre back.

The way you have set up, we will have the majority of possession, given almost all of our midfielders are technically better at retaining the ball compared to yours so it stands to reason we will create more chances against a superior defense while you will create far less against a worse defense.

You will have possession but we will trust our shield, our defence and our keeper. We have the ball players, the pace and the penetration to be far more dangerous.

 

[diarm]

Could doesn't come into it though, we are judging him based on his performance in the league.

I couldn't have put it better myself. We are judging based on performance in the league.

And in this league, Le Tissier and Van Persiehave been more effective in scoring goals than Bergkamp and Fowler. You are wagering that a genius and a good finisher will outscore a slightly lesser (but better goalscoring) genius and a better finisher. And you're doing so when the former is up against a much better defensive set up.

 

[crappycraperson]

Prenote: @diarm if you see this as double teaming then apologies but I think you have been all over the map regards to midfield discussion so i will just clarify it once it for all.

Batty as per you is playing a role of pure DM, whose presence will a) stifle Bergkamp b) allow both full backs to push forward. At the same time you have also mentioned he will also be competing in proper central midfield area like Keane. Now there is a reason why dedicated DMs like Makelele mostly played in 433. Even someone like Matic does not play this kind of role of Chelsea even in 4231. He is more of a pure destroyer who will run about in midfield and break attacks rather than sit in front of the defense. If you do designate someone purely for that role, especially in a 2 man midfield you are leaving the other midfield a bit high and dry. Second, it is questionable itself if Batty will be able to prevail against likes of Bergkamp and Scholes.

To make it then sound like it is Keane and Scholes who have a bigger task in front of them is absurd. It is clearly Modric and Batty who will be stretched here. You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too where Batty will combat Bergkamp and equally be a participant in battle against Keane + Scholes

Keane is not playing as a pure DM here, neither does he needs to against someone like Tissier. Both him and Scholes are well rounded midfielders perfect for any 442. It is inherently an attacking midfield pairing. With Bergkamp in there it is clear as a day of straight up 3 vs 3 in the central area

- Keane + Scholes + Bergkamp vs Batty + Modric + Tissier

Regardless of wherever or whatever role you may want each of your 3 to play. The gulf in quality there is stark and will have an impact in any match.

 

[antohan]

I am not going to comment too much about the gap between Tessier and Bergkamp. I will leave it to the voters to decide if there is one or not and how much it will impact the game. If someone does not think Bergkamp is that much better than Tessier, then fair play it is their opinion and their vote.

Regarding Ivanovic, diarm's assertion that he has benefited from Chelsea's defensive set up is not correct. For starters he was bought in 2008, by that time, Chelsea;s defensive prowess was on the wane. Terry was past his peak and not rejuvenated yet, cech was doing through a tough period, likes of Makelele and Carvalho left soon as well. He had to play and perform alongside likes of Luiz who required plenty of covering at the back. Only after Jose came again, that he was part of a defensively solid Chelsea again. Before that he was performing consistently for Chelsea which was not the defensive powerhouse it once was or may be currently.

Different players IMO. Bergkamp was a tier above, absolutely, but diarm has Batty in a pure DM role while you are facing Le Tissier behind Scholes back and heading towards Southgate.

I like your team better as a coherent unit and think you deal with most of his strengths pretty well, but he has a solid defence that will be hard to break down while I can see Le Tissier being the best player on the pitch and giving you the runaround. I saw him do exactly that against us often enough and it's exactly what he will do here.

 

[antohan]

Finally a goalkeeper made the difference!

Always does with @sajeev and Shay Given. Will it tie-break aa semi again?

 

[antohan]

- Keane + Scholes + Bergkamp vs Batty + Modric + Tissier

Regardless of wherever or whatever role you may want each of your 3 to play. The gulf in quality there is stark and will have an impact in any match.

On paper, there is a gulf in quality and, particularly, ability to control a midfield. But then you also have to factor in Beckham shits on either of your wide midfield players as far as midfield work is concerned, and the Bale-Cole flank will dominate your Ivanovic-Ginola flank. Quite easily, actually.

The central trios are only part of the overall picture.

 

[Skizzo]

Keane and Scholes are box to box, and well rounded, but they're far from a defensively sound pairing. With a less than stellar defense behind them, I wouldn't bank on it being as straight forward as painted here.

Yes there's a midfield advantage, but that doesn't mean that will be guaranteed goals. For all the arguments about Ronaldo being restricted by Cole, I dont see Ginola being particularly effective. Bergkamp matching up with Batty means Fowler will be lining up against Ferdinand and Terry...a more daunting prospect than RVP up against Southgate and McGrath, especially if Pearce steps up to get closer to Becks. Le Tissier has already been mentioned by both managers as to being no part of midfield really, so who is curbing his influence here? Wouldn't fancy the chances of the box to box mids getting back and forth in time to dominate offensively and defensively.

So many draft discussions seem to end with better midfield = win, which isn't the case. Hell, that should be well known on a United forum where we competed without a midfield for quite a while. I think Diarm has enough pieces in other areas to cause problems and squeak a narrow win.

All that being said, I'm refraining from voting in this match, just my thoughts.

 

[Skizzo]

After 20 minutes, Keane was sent off after collecting his second booking. He had been detailed to shackle Le Tissier, and with him gone, “Le God” from Guernsey was given the breathing space he needed to exert an influence. Just 15 minutes later, he pulled out the party piece featured here, collecting the ball 30 yards out, casually strolling past two defenders and, without even looking up, sensed Peter Schmeichel off his line and instinctively lofted a precise but powerful lob over the Great Dane, making him look not a little silly in the process. It was a typical Le Tissier goal – one that came almost from nowhere and hinted at a natural talent that seemingly allowed him to pull off the most outrageous pieces of skill without even trying.

 

[diarm]

Prenote: @diarm if you see this as double teaming then apologies but I think you have been all over the map regards to midfield discussion so i will just clarify it once it for all.

Batty as per you is playing a role of pure DM, whose presence will a) stifle Bergkamp b) allow both full backs to push forward. At the same time you have also mentioned he will also be competing in proper central midfield area like Keane. Now there is a reason why dedicated DMs like Makelele mostly played in 433. Even someone like Matic does not play this kind of role of Chelsea even in 4231. He is more of a pure destroyer who will run about in midfield and break attacks rather than sit in front of the defense. If you do designate someone purely for that role, especially in a 2 man midfield you are leaving the other midfield a bit high and dry. Second, it is questionable itself if Batty will be able to prevail against likes of Bergkamp and Scholes.

To make it then sound like it is Keane and Scholes who have a bigger task in front of them is absurd. It is clearly Modric and Batty who will be stretched here. You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too where Batty will combat Bergkamp and equally be a participant in battle against Keane + Scholes

Keane is not playing as a pure DM here, neither does he needs to against someone like Tissier. Both him and Scholes are well rounded midfielders perfect for any 442. It is inherently an attacking midfield pairing. With Bergkamp in there it is clear as a day of straight up 3 vs 3 in the central area

- Keane + Scholes + Bergkamp vs Batty + Modric + Tissier

Regardless of wherever or whatever role you may want each of your 3 to play. The gulf in quality there is stark and will have an impact in any match.

No worries about the double teaming. It's all great debate!

I thought I'd been clear on Batty and Le Tissier but I will clarify again just to be crystal.
Where did I mention that he will be playing a proper central midfield role a la Keane? This is my formation:

.. and I have repeatedly said he will be the shield in front of the back 4. Danny reinforced that tactic in his comment.
I did reject the notion that he would only be focused on Bergkamp because as you have set out, Scholes and Keane will attack our box as well. But I don't think I have suggested he will be playing a Keane role anywhere.

Batty is the defensive midfielder. He is the shield. Of course, he is capable on the ball and will pass simply and effectively when we regain possession but he won't be crossing the halfway line too often.

As a DM, he can comfortably slip back as cover when a wingback is moving forward with the ball. This is how effective defensive midfielders work all the time.
In the middle of the park we have Modric and Beckham in his withdrawn role. They will not top Keane and Schole by passing it back and forth through the midfield but we won't be doing that. Deliberately because Keane and Scholes are so good.

We will look to move the ball to Bale, to Le Tissier or to Van Persie. We will be fast and direct and we will counter. When the opportunity is there, we will use our fullbacks to good effect.

When you have the ball, you will be effective through the midfield but then you will reach our defensive line. Occasionally, one of our fullbacks may be out of place but Beckham and particularly Batty won't be too far away. Of course you will get into good positions because you have excellent players but they will also be facing an exceptional defence.

When we get the ball quickly to Bale, who is going to stop him making ground into your half? Are you going to risk pushing Ivanovic up that high? When we win the ball off Keane or Scholes in our half and get it to Le Tissier in space 10-15 yards outside your penalty area, who is going to counter him? Are you going to pull a centre back out and risk leaving Van Persie one on one? Is Ivanovic going to come across and leave space for Bale to move into?

 

[NoPace]

I thought for sure Diarm would upgrade Batty. Terry/Pallister or Rio/Hendry would have done fine here with a midfielder a tier above Batty to go alongside Modric. Up against Keane and Scholes, or Makalele-Vieira-Gerrard if he faced Gio, I think Batty-Modric feels a bit weak. I'm a massive fan of the front four and think that'd work great.

I was surprised he upgraded from Pallister to Rio, too, when he could have upgraded Batty or Le Tissier. I might have kept Batty to mark Bergkamp and just brought in Lampard for Le Tissier to help with the midfield scrap and get on the end of crosses from Beckham and Bale (playing left-wing)

 

[crappycraperson]

So many draft discussions seem to end with better midfield = win, which isn't the case. .

You are way off here. That is not the case at all.

 

[diarm]

After 20 minutes, Keane was sent off after collecting his second booking. He had been detailed to shackle Le Tissier, and with him gone, “Le God” from Guernsey was given the breathing space he needed to exert an influence. Just 15 minutes later, he pulled out the party piece featured here, collecting the ball 30 yards out, casually strolling past two defenders and, without even looking up, sensed Peter Schmeichel off his line and instinctively lofted a precise but powerful lob over the Great Dane, making him look not a little silly in the process. It was a typical Le Tissier goal – one that came almost from nowhere and hinted at a natural talent that seemingly allowed him to pull off the most outrageous pieces of skill without even trying.

 

[diarm]

I was surprised he upgraded from Pallister to Rio, too, when he could have upgraded Batty or Le Tissier. I might have kept Batty to mark Bergkamp and just brought in Lampard for Le Tissier to help with the midfield scrap and get on the end of crosses from Beckham and Bale (playing left-wing)

And who of Cole or Terry would I have dropped for Lampard?