All-Time Fantasy Draft

antohan said:
Who is Viera?

I was surprised others crying out for a DM hadn't gone for him.
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:D Fixed to Vieira.

I wanted him yesterday, instead of Finney. Asked if I could change my pick, but I thought it wouldn't be fair to other. I was as surprised that he's still available.
 
Isotope said:
Damn. That's really encouraging.
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:lol:

Not at all, great fullback and was bound to start for someone in this draft. I have great quality there already, but they are Dutch and Argentine. If certain Dutch orArgentine players popped up later then I may have been tempted to replace one of my full backs in order to work them in. Irwin would be perfect as he could replace either my Dutch or Argentine...
 
Isotope said:
It's because our gungho philosophy. Evra was considered one of the best in the world (if not the best) at some time with us. But, you can ask any older United fans, who they rate higher, Evra or Irwin.
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It's just shameless romanticism. If this were done on another forum there's no chance that Denis Irwin would be picked by anyone and I think he's the first player picked you can say that of.

The fact is Irwin was a good full back but never world beating who spent his entire career playing in either the 4th or 5th best league in the world. Obviously his nationality plays some part in his selection but there's absolutely loads of better left backs I could name who haven't been picked yet.
 
Gunnar Nordahl

NORDHAL_200_thumb.jpg


Physical striker who dominated Serie A (an unmatched 5 times top scorer) and international football (43 goals in just 33 games). Had he not moved to Italy his international career could have been even more glorious (Swedish FA refused to call up players based abroad) and Sweden may have done better than 3rd in the 1950 World Cup with the world's top striker leading their line.

Fearsome in the air and his volleys invariably found the back of the net. One exception occurred against Malmo that same year, but the youngster still emerged celebrating: such was the force with which he struck the ball, the volley ripped violently through the fabric and hurtled into the crowd!
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Gunnar Gren said:
He scored tap-ins and spectacular goals. He would sneak into positions that others would not know existed. He was one of the best players there has ever been.
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Isotope said:
Exactly. So Keano wasn't good at covering defence then.
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Except Keane is regarded by basically everyone as one of the finest holding midfielders to play the game, generally after Rijkaard and Matthaus you have Davids, Keane, Redondo and Vieira on any forum in any country he's going to get a mention.

No one (outside of United and ROI fans) would ever consider Denis Irwin to be a top left back.
 
lunchforthesky said:
It's just shameless romanticism. If this were done on another forum there's no chance that Denis Irwin would be picked by anyone and I think he's the first player picked you can say that of.

The fact is Irwin was a good full back but never world beating who spent his entire career playing in either the 4th or 5th best league in the world. Obviously his nationality plays some part in his selection but there's absolutely loads of better left backs I could name who haven't been picked yet.
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I think nationality plays a huge part in his selection.
 
lunchforthesky said:
It's just shameless romanticism. If this were done on another forum there's no chance that Denis Irwin would be picked by anyone and I think he's the first player picked you can say that of.

The fact is Irwin was a good full back but never world beating who spent his entire career playing in either the 4th or 5th best league in the world. Obviously his nationality plays some part in his selection but there's absolutely loads of better left backs I could name who haven't been picked yet.
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I think if someone had picked Bruce or Pallister then you might be somewhere to being correct but Irwin was a pillar of consistency and would have been anywhere across Europe IMO.

There was a lot of tactical naivety surrounding those early European campaigns (Paul Parker man marking Romario....fair enough) and we were let down by less than stellar back lines early on (David May, Ageing Phealen) he was never the best but as Ferguson said 8/10 every game. Can't ask for much more.
 
Are you lot paying attention to Gio?

He's not saying much but is quietly forming a really dangerous side.

Silent but deadly.
 
lunchforthesky said:
It's just shameless romanticism. If this were done on another forum there's no chance that Denis Irwin would be picked by anyone and I think he's the first player picked you can say that of.

The fact is Irwin was a good full back but never world beating who spent his entire career playing in either the 4th or 5th best league in the world. Obviously his nationality plays some part in his selection but there's absolutely loads of better left backs I could name who haven't been picked yet.
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Of course. But they are mostly from Italy, Argentina, Brazil, France, and Netherland. It's a bit pity to pick full back from those countries, unless it's really necessary (and some I can't picked because of nationality rules). Then there are some from small(-ish) countries, but you're gonna pick them just based on internet rankings. It's hard to find full-back videos on the internet to judge them.

With Irwin, you know how good he is. I would say, if he played for us today (on his peak), he'd still be one of the best fullback in the world.
 
Theon said:
This has surprised me, assumed Moreno was playing as the central attacker, but guess he is on the right?
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Inside right for River Plate's legendary La Maquina team in the 1940s. This is their forward line:

800px-La_Maquina.jpg
 
Yeah, but I thought given those wierd formations with 5 up top that inside right was like a striker. So in a modern formation he'd play centrally!
 
NM said:
yes - we considered it a worthy risk to take Thuram and then Tardelli over Vieira. Surprised he lasted this long tbh.
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To be clear - I think Tardelli is much better than Vieira - I'm just surprised nobody else picked him up. Maybe Vieira isn't that good?
 
More on that River team:

In midfield, it boasted two defensive mids of great sacrifice and vision in Bruno Rodolfi and Jose Ramos. They were joined in midfield by 'Charro' Moreno, the creative force of the team, who tracked back and covered the whole right side. They were also joined by Adolfo Pedernera, the centerforward, who would withdraw to midfield, confounding the central defenders who were supposed to mark him, and opening spaces for the wings.
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Yeah I read that on Football'sGreatest, awesome website.

Yeah no doubt you are right, those old formations confuse me though because wasn't Puskas an inside left but he would be central in a modern team?
 
NM said:
To be clear - I think Tardelli is much better than Vieira - I'm just surprised nobody else picked him up. Maybe Vieira isn't that good?
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How many games have you watched both? You can say Rijkaard is a much better DM than Viera, but Tardelli? People rate Edgar Davids higher than Vieira on those website lists. But if you watched their games, I rate Vieira higher than Davids, as he offers more to the team.
 
Isotope said:
How many games have you watched both? You can say Rijkaard is a much better DM than Viera, but Tardelli? People rate Edgar Davids higher than Vieira on those website lists. But if you watched their games, I rate Vieira higher than Davids, as he offers more to the team.
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I think Keane, Tardelli and Tigana are all better than Vieira, then probably Davids as well. Different strengths for each though.

Edit - and in terms of lists they are never going to be that accurate, but I think that order would be reflected on the lists, with Vieira being slightly below all the others.
 
Isotope said:
How many games have you watched both? You can say Rijkaard is a much better DM than Viera, but Tardelli? People rate Edgar Davids higher than Vieira on those website lists. But if you watched their games, I rate Vieira higher than Davids, as he offers more to the team.
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I've watched a ton of Vieira - one of my best friends is a gooner and we used to watch football together every weekend. Less of Tardelli due to him being before my time, but still I have watched a lot of old football recently.. Beginning to enjoy seeing old retro games (lots of whose results I don't know) a lot tbh.
 
Theon said:
I think Keane, Tardelli and Tigana are all better than Vieira, then probably Davids as well. Different strengths for each though.

Edit - and in terms of lists they are never going to be that accurate, but I think that order would be reflected on the lists, with Vieira being slightly below all the others.
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Those three are all box to box, though. That includes Davids. Defensively, Viera is better than all of them, imho.
 
NM said:
I've watched a ton of Vieira - one of my best friends is a gooner and we used to watch football together every weekend. Less of Tardelli due to him being before my time, but still I have watched a lot of old football recently.. Beginning to enjoy seeing old retro games (lots of whose results I don't know) a lot tbh.
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I watched Vieira a lot, too. As a DM, it's hard to say there are players 'much' better than him. But it's all about compatibility with his midfield partner. I think that Viera compliments Matthaus as partner.
 
Isotope said:
How many games have you watched both? You can say Rijkaard is a much better DM than Viera, but Tardelli? People rate Edgar Davids higher than Vieira on those website lists. But if you watched their games, I rate Vieira higher than Davids, as he offers more to the team.
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Care to expand? It's not a controversial opinion prefering one over the other, but it would be good to see why. I'm a big fan of Davids: Holland basically won the midfield battle in every big game in World Cup 1998 and Euro 2000 thanks largely to his capacity to dominate. He showed me more there than I've seen from any other midfielder of his type since Matthaus in 1990.
 
ooooohh, I just took a power nap. A little to long... like 3 hours.... Good luck sleeping tonight for me! And sorry for keeping you all waiting, give me a minute or two.
 
I personally think David's is the worst of those mentioned a little but further up.

Of course it really depends on what you want but generally I'd take Veira over him every day.
 
Here's a piece I found on my main midfielder Masopust for you to take something from hopefully.


Indefatigable, an insightful reader of the game and a masterful tackler, Masopust was also a genius on the ball, where his penchant for side-stepping opponents at pace and executing sumptuously-weighted through-balls prompted one of his coaches to recommend him to Teplice, who had just been promoted into the Czech top flight and duly sent a scout to run the rule over the non-assuming 18-year-old. Masopust coveted a trial. He got one better: a contract.*

Masopust didn’t last long at Teplice. ATK (who became Dukla Prague in 1956), the communist-incepted army club, decided they wanted Czech football’s golden boy. And what ATK wanted, ATK got. Clubs at the time had to work their way up to the upper tier from the lower leagues, yet ATK were immediately housed among the elite upon their 1948 inauguration. Furthermore, they cherry-picked whichever soldiers they fancied, with rivals instructed to release their star players at ATK’s demand.*

This caused outrage among the Czech football community. Naturally, fans of Sparta and Slavia, the country’s best-supported clubs, despised ATK. Consequentially, Masopust became something of a public enemy. Except, that is, to ATK followers. Indeed, with Masopust, who was forbidden from playing abroad until he went to Belgium outfit Crossing as a 37-year-old, revelling in an irresistible engine-room tandem alongside Svatopluk Pluskal, the club seized eight Czech First League crowns between 1953 and ’66.*

Dukla also transcended their success on to the international stage, albeit under minimal scrutiny. Indeed, they beat the likes of Red Star Belgrade, Rapid Vienna, Monaco and Espanyol en route to 1961 International Soccer League final, where they overwhelmed Everton 9-2 on aggregate to qualify for the following year’s American Challenge Cup, which they lifted the following three years in succession. Moreover, Masopust outshone Pele as Dukla edged Santos 4-3 in a 1959 friendly, terrorising the South Americans’ with his slaloming dribbles and scoring twice in Mexico.*

“It didn’t matter who the opposition was, he always stood out,” said Pluskal. “He would never give the ball away, playing short passes or one-twos until space opened up, and then he would set off… past one, two, three, breezing past opponents, one way then the other, as if they were flags on a training pitch. He was just an incredible player.”*

But although Dukla’s success made Masopust a celebrity in his homeland, he remained little-known elsewhere. That categorically changed in Chile. Czechoslovakia had fallen at the first hurdle at Sweden 1958 and were in considerably more examining company this time around: the defending world champions had Garrincha and Pele in their extraordinary pomp, while a Spain side coached by the tactical magician Helenio Herrera boasted Jose Santamaria, Francisco Gento, Luis Suarez and Ferenc Puskas.*

“They told us not to bother unpacking our suitcases, that we’d be going home after the first round,” Masopust recalled. Unpack his suitcase he didn’t. Unlock the Spanish defence in their curtain-raiser he did. And from one of Masopust’s sumptuously weighted through-balls, Josef Stibranyi slotted home the only goal.*

“I was surprised by how complete he was,” Puskas admitted. “Luis [Del Sol] was one of the best midfielders there was at breaking up attacks, Suarez was a genius with his through-balls and Paco [Gento] was fantastic when running at fullbacks. But Masopust could do it all: win the ball, pass, dribble and break into the box. He was an outstanding player.”*

Masopust then kept the irresistible Didi quiet as Czechoslovakia held Brazil to a shock 0-0 draw. It was a match in which his class showed both professionally and personally. Pele sustained an injury but in the pre-substitution era, was forced to hobble helplessly around the field. When the ball went towards him, the Seleção No10’s immobility afforded Masopust a free ticket to make it his own. Nobly, the elegant No6 refused to challenge his opponent.*

“It was a gesture I will never forget,” said Pele afterwards. Djalma Santos remarked: “It was moving to see the respect with which he treat the situation. It was not just respect for Pele but for the entire Seleção. He was a great player and, moreover, a gentleman.”*

Despite a 3-1 loss to Mexico in their final Group 3 outing, the Central Europeans progressed to the knockout phase, where Masopust proved the catalyst in a 3-1 defeat of reigning UEFA European Championship runners-up Yugoslavia. Hungary were next to fall victim to the Czech spell, propelling Czechoslovakia into a Final against Brazil. And though Masopust broke the deadlock for David, Goliath instantaneously responded and ultimately emerged 3-1 winners.*

“Masopust was one of the greatest players I ever saw," Pele later remarked. "But it is not possible that he was born in Europe. With those explosive dribbles, he had to be Brazilian!”*

And on that Santiago showpiece, O Rei added: “Brazil were the better team that day, but Masopust certainly didn’t deserve to be on the losing side.” Individually, ‘The Knight’ also had to settle for silver, with Garrincha pipping him to the tournament’s best player award.*

Gold would, fittingly, grace Masopust’s hands thereafter though. The Ballon d'Or was just reward for his phenomenal 1962; the UEFA Golden Player gong the recognition of his status as Czechoslovakia’s finest performer of the 20th century. And by the time those prestigious honours were awarded, the engravers didn’t need to ask how to spell Josef Masopust.*
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Gio said:
Care to expand? It's not a controversial opinion prefering one over the other, but it would be good to see why. I'm a big fan of Davids: Holland basically won the midfield battle in every big game in World Cup 1998 and Euro 2000 thanks largely to his capacity to dominate. He showed me more there than I've seen from any other midfielder of his type since Matthaus in 1990.
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I'm not saying Davids isn't a great player. But Viera will offer more to my team, with Matthaus in there.
 
Isotope said:
Those three are all box to box, though. That includes Davids. Defensively, Viera is better than all of them, imho.
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Yeah Vieira and his rangy frame was excellent in that sense. Still, Davids was extraordinarily strong (check out the size of his thighs in the picture I posted), was renowned as a relentless man-marker, and had the sort of defensive nous to cover the arse of Frank De Boer on regular occasion (see this fantastic challenge against peak Ronaldo in the '98 semi at 5.10)

 
Fortitude said:
You need a midfielder to come into that team and balance it out.

Apart from that, it's shaping up rather well.
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Indeed. That's why I took Effenberg JIC even if it was shaping up like Scholes-Souness in midfield (couldn't see how he would fit Scholes, Zidane and Savicevic into the three). Would have worked very well for him though.
 
Isotope said:
:D Fixed to Vieira.

I wanted him yesterday, instead of Finney. Asked if I could change my pick, but I thought it wouldn't be fair to other. I was as surprised that he's still available.
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Like many others, he was still available because people don't pull the trigger on some big nations seeing as they provide the most options at the back. Once the likes of Thuram, Desailly, etc. were gone it was only a matter of time.
 
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