All-time Fantasy Draft Final - antohan v Cutch

[Cutch]

You are certainly right about Henry there but when he drifted wide he loved to move infield and hit it with his right foot, some of his best goals were scored that way. To me that isn't really attacking Eyzaguirre.. Don't you think? You have said he is the weak link but I don't see him actually being targetted, Henry is more comfortable coming inside. Like you yourself said, in between Baresi and Eyzaguirre. It's not a bad tactic at all and gets the best out of Henry, but you aren't really attacking Eyzaguirre.

Henrys coming inside, Stoitchkov is already inside. Maradona is central, Beckenbeuer is attacking central, Pele will likely drop deep. It might work but to me just seems a clusterfeck.

Anto has basically handed me the left hand side of the pitch. He has assigned Andrade to do a job on Best, and Stoitchkov to cover Santos (but not provide width). He's banking on the other side where he thinks he's getting Facchetti and Henry to isolate Eyzaguirre but in reality Facchetti has far too much on his plate marking Ronaldo. Henry might get past once or twice but he's not going to torment a fullback like Best or Ronaldo can.

 

[Fergus' son]

Does anyone else doubt Stoichkovs ability to stick with Nilton santos all game (when not in possession)?

 

[Cutch]

The only one that's got tactical mileage IMO is Figo for Ronaldo but that would surrender votes. Shev for Van Basten is a non-starter.

Nah Gio, not making any changes, just pointing out in a game situation the options i would have off the bench if i was in the hunt for goals.

 

[Cutch]

Does anyone else doubt Stoichkovs ability to stick with Nilton santos all game (when not in possession)?

I'm not sure what he's doing at all. Anto's said he isn't providing any width, and i dont remember him playing on the right (apologies if wrong!) so it seems he's only playing where he is to do a job on Santos, which seems a tad negative. He'd have been better with Dirk Kuyt.

 

[antohan]

You are certainly right about Henry there but when he drifted wide he loved to move infield and hit it with his right foot, some of his best goals were scored that way. To me that isn't really attacking Eyzaguirre.. Don't you think? You have said he is the weak link but I don't see him actually being targetted, Henry is more comfortable coming inside. Like you yourself said, in between Baresi and Eyzaguirre. It's not a bad tactic at all and gets the best out of Henry, but you aren't really attacking Eyzaguirre.

Firstly, yes, you ARE attacking Eyzaguirre because otherwise Charles is overworked, he has to tuck in.

I do agree if both Henry and Stoichkov are doing that that leads all four defenders to tuck in tight in the box and it's almost like trying to play through a wall.

THAT IS WHERE FACCHETTI COMES IN, that's what keeps Eyzaguirre from tucking in, forcing Charles that bit further wide along with him. But then you don't want Charles to come out all the way to pick Henry, which is what keeps Eyzaguirre constantly in two minds because the moment he goes for Facchetti he lays it off to Henry and the moment he goes for Henry... Facchetti is through and crossing.

Stoichkov is left footed though, he'd be better placed to attack Eyzaguirre by taking him on the outside, whereas Henry would be more prone to cutting infield which is Hierro/Baresi territory.

Facchetti takes Eyzaguirre on the outside, no need for two players to be doing that. Henry is either picked up by Hierro or Charles who come to close him down or else you can be pretty sure he will either score or provide an assist. Henry's assist record was exceptional as well.

Re: Stoichkov being left footed. It doesn't in any way hinder what I'm asking him to do. It removes the option of showing Santos outside, and I'm fine with that. I don't think that is what Stoichkov was best at anyway whichever flank he plays in.

 

[antohan]

The only one that's got tactical mileage IMO is Figo for Ronaldo but that would surrender votes. Shev for Van Basten is a non-starter.

I agree. Neither would work vote-wise so it is all academic, he won't do it. I would be delighted if he did bring on Sheva though, massive vote meltdown. But let's not get tied up on that, largely irrelevant to the game.

 

[Cutch]

Firstly, yes, you ARE attacking Eyzaguirre because otherwise Baresi is overworked, he has to tuck in.

I do agree if both Henry and Stoichkov are doing that that leads all four defenders to tuck in tight in the box and it's almost like trying to play through a wall.

THAT IS WHERE FACCHETTI COMES IN, that's what keeps Eyzaguirre from tucking in, forcing Baresi that bit further wide along with him. But then you don't want Baresi to come out all the way to pick Henry, which is what keeps Eyzaguirre constantly in two minds because the moment he goes for Facchetti he lays it off to Henry and the moment he goes for Henry Facchetti is through and crossing.



Facchetti takes Eyzaguirre on the outside, no need for two players to be doing that. Henry is either picked up by Hierro or Baresi who come to close him down or else you can be pretty sure he will either score or provide an assist. Henry's assist record was exceptional as well.

Re: Stoichkov being left footed. It doesn't in any way hinder what I'm asking him to do. It removes the option of showing Santos outside, and I'm fine with that. I don't think that is what Stoichkov was best at anyway whichever flank he plays in.

Right, we're basically in agreement up until Facchetti's involvement. I just cannot see your fullback being a consistant supplier from wide areas when faced with coping with Cristiano Ronaldo. Yes, you have a contingency plan in place, Rijkaard from memory, but i just cannot see this working, or atleast it's unclear to me. Maybe others understand it better but it seems like wishful thinking.

 

[Fergus' son]

I think Anto is way too reliant on his wing backs providing width, and up against Cutchs wingers that's pretty suicidal. Meanwhile Edwards and De Stefano have atleast an equal grip of the midfield.

Beckenbauer is wasted with all those number tens and strikers trying to cut inside invading his space. I can't see him venturing past the half way line in any attacking sense and to use him solely for defensive purposes is quite a big waste.

 

[Cutch]

I agree. Neither would work vote-wise so it is all academic, he won't do it. I would be delighted if he did bring on Sheva though, massive vote meltdown. But let's not get tied up on that, largely irrelevant to the game.

In reality after 70 minutes with tiring legs of course i would be considering my Ballon D'ors Shevchenko, Figo and Baggio.

 

[antohan]

Henrys coming inside, Stoitchkov is already inside. Maradona is central, Beckenbeuer is attacking central, Pele will likely drop deep. It might work but to me just seems a clusterfeck.

Don't add things I didn't say (Beckenbauer isn't attacking, he is staying where Scholes or more so Carrick woudl be in an attacking situation. Will help with the buildup but won't be committing forward or creating any sort of congestion.

I guess I will have to draw a 11v11 for you there. There's a lot of space across the frontline to accomodate them without having to be hugged to the corner flag.

Anto has basically handed me the left hand side of the pitch. He has assigned Andrade to do a job on Best, and Stoitchkov to cover Santos (but not provide width).

Handed is one way of thinking about it. Closed it is another.

He's banking on the other side where he thinks he's getting Facchetti and Henry to isolate Eyzaguirre but in reality Facchetti has far too much on his plate marking Ronaldo. Henry might get past once or twice but he's not going to torment a fullback like Best or Ronaldo can.

I don't think, I know. That's the directive, that's what Facchetti was famous for, a significant attacking outlet. He did that for 18 fecking years, no reason he will decide to stop doing it today. He has faced players every bit as good as Ronaldo and come up trumps.

I'm not sure what he's doing at all. Anto's said he isn't providing any width, and i dont remember him playing on the right (apologies if wrong!) so it seems he's only playing where he is to do a job on Santos, which seems a tad negative. He'd have been better with Dirk Kuyt.

It is a tad negative indeed. I explained it before, it's not too different from when we get Rooney on the left (is he left-footed???? oh no's, he can't provide width then!!!!). The problem when we do that is we lose his creativity and contribution to build up through the middle, but I have DIEGO ARMANDO MARADONA doing that. It's not the classic United scenario where Rooney going left results in a huge drop in our ability to put some attacking moves together.

And Dirk Kuyt could do a good job on the tracking back front, don't think he has as much determination, pace and aggressiveness as Stoichkov but the workrate is there. The key difference of course is in attack, where he can do every one of his favourite tricks listed earlier:

• arriving in the box between CB and fullback to bang in a Laudrup (Maradona here) through ball, or
• running onto a ball placed behind the CBs backs (you would have to be defending high up for this, which I doubt you are as you don't have the recovery pace to push up against the likes of Henry, Stoichkov and Pelé, it would be suicidal) and beating the keeper one-on-one
• to attack that space between fullback and CB with the ball to draw the CB towards him, and play a one-two pivoting with Maradona or Pelé and receive behind the CB with a clear goalscoring opportunity on.

 

[Cutch]

Apologies, i assumed it was a given Beckenbeuer would be looking to attack. Surely you're not getting the best out of him in that sort of restricted role

 

[Balu]

Right, we're basically in agreement up until Facchetti's involvement. I just cannot see your fullback being a consistant supplier from wide areas when faced with coping with Cristiano Ronaldo. Yes, you have a contingency plan in place, Rijkaard from memory, but i just cannot see this working, or atleast it's unclear to me. Maybe others understand it better but it seems like wishful thinking.

I don't get that point. It's happening all the time against strong teams. Lahm had Ronaldo in his pocket several times while contributing offensively as well. Dortmund targeted that weakness at Real in the CL this season and you're facing Faccetti, an even stronger fullback with a great balance between attack and defense. It's not like the moment Faccetti crosses the ball, it instantly appears at Ronaldo's foot. There's enough time to run back and help out in defense for the fullback, it needs to be well timed and balanced, but it's not a huge risk and not that difficult to excecute and Antohan's team looks well setup to make it work. Ronaldo not tracking back is more of a problem and will lead to more chances for your opponent at this level than the other way round, imo.

 

[antohan]

Right, we're basically in agreement up until Facchetti's involvement. I just cannot see your fullback being a consistant supplier from wide areas when faced with coping with Cristiano Ronaldo. Yes, you have a contingency plan in place, Rijkaard from memory, but i just cannot see this working, or atleast it's unclear to me. Maybe others understand it better but it seems like wishful thinking.

Of course you can't see it. You don't want to. Let's just drop that point because we are never going to agree.

I think Anto is way too reliant on his wing backs providing width, and up against Cutchs wingers that's pretty suicidal.

I've already told you Andrade is not going upfield. Facchetti is but is covered by Rijkaard.

I said it 100 times, this line of argument is tiresome.

Beckenbauer is wasted with all those number tens and strikers trying to cut inside invading his space. I can't see him venturing past the half way line in any attacking sense and to use him solely for defensive purposes is quite a big waste.

Stop saying his space is being invaded when I haven't even sent him up there. How regularly do you see Scholes and more so Carrick in or around the box? They usually stay further back providing the option to play it back if an opening isn't showing up. Pass it between them, try through another player... and so on until there's a breakthrough.

He is not just staying back to defend/shield the defence/protect from the counter, it's all part of creating space and moving the ball around in possession.

You just need to watch a real-life football game to understand this. It's absurd I'm having to even explain it.

 

[antohan]

Apologies, i assumed it was a given Beckenbeuer would be looking to attack. Surely you're not getting the best out of him in that sort of restricted role

See above.

It's interesting that while I am very clear and specific about how my team is playing I keep being thrown back assumptions and the same old questions. Rinse and repeat.

On the other side there are 11 shirts which are meant to be playing in some way. No one asks how. I won't assume anything because it's pretty evident to me (and I always assume you are making the right calls).

There's one glaring weak link in this entire match and it's on your right flank. That decides games. They are all great players, all can produce moments of magic, but a glaring weakness is significantly more likely to settle a game.

 

[antohan]

I don't get that point. It's happening all the time against strong teams. Lahm had Ronaldo in his pocket several times while contributing offensively as well. Dortmund targeted that weakness at Real in the CL this season and you're facing Faccetti, an even stronger fullback with a great balance between attack and defense. It's not like the moment Faccetti crosses the ball, it instantly appears at Ronaldo's foot. There's enough time to run back and help out in defense for the fullback, it needs to be well timed and balanced, but it's not a huge risk and not that difficult to excecute and Antohan's team looks well setup to make it work. Ronaldo not tracking back is more of a problem and will lead to more chances for your opponent at this level than the other way round, imo.

Thank you for helping me keep my sanity. It sound like we are talking about a different sport at times.

 

[Balu]

Beckenbauer is wasted with all those number tens and strikers trying to cut inside invading his space. I can't see him venturing past the half way line in any attacking sense and to use him solely for defensive purposes is quite a big waste.

Beckenbauer's range of passing is amazing, he doesn't need to run into the penalty box to influence the game offensively. And where are all those number 10s? I can see only one. It's actually perfect for Beckenbauer, he doesn't need to run forward but if he gets the space, Maradona can easily drop deep, Henry and Stoichkov will go wide and open up space for him to link up with Pelé. I can't think of a better setup for Beckenbauer to shine in.

Oh and Beckenbauer is never wasted. He's way too good as a defender to be called wasted even if he's solely used for man-marking the opponent's best player.

 

[Theon]

Firstly, yes, you ARE attacking Eyzaguirre because otherwise Baresi is overworked, he has to tuck in.

I do agree if both Henry and Stoichkov are doing that that leads all four defenders to tuck in tight in the box and it's almost like trying to play through a wall.

THAT IS WHERE FACCHETTI COMES IN, that's what keeps Eyzaguirre from tucking in, forcing Baresi that bit further wide along with him. But then you don't want Baresi to come out all the way to pick Henry, which is what keeps Eyzaguirre constantly in two minds because the moment he goes for Facchetti he lays it off to Henry and the moment he goes for Henry Facchetti is through and crossing.

Facchetti takes Eyzaguirre on the outside, no need for two players to be doing that. Henry is either picked up by Hierro or Baresi who come to close him down or else you can be pretty sure he will either score or provide an assist. Henry's assist record was exceptional as well.

Re: Stoichkov being left footed. It doesn't in any way hinder what I'm asking him to do. It removes the option of showing Santos outside, and I'm fine with that. I don't think that is what Stoichkov was best at anyway whichever flank he plays in.

Right okay, that is clearer now and the danger is obviously Ronaldo on the counter. I think this was a productive area of debate though, you have agreed with what I have said but then explained Facchetti's involvement better, so it makes sense. Henry is cutting in, everyone expects that, but Facchetti is giving the overlap - makes sense. Like I said though the risk is Ronaldo on the counter, though Rijkaard can mitigate that somewhat.

With Stoichkov being left footed I wasn't saying he would be uneffective on the right at all, for the defensive job you've tasked him with it won't make much difference. My point was that I would have preferred to see him against Eyzaguirre, committing him both ways.

 

[Fergus' son]

Beckenbauer's range of passing is amazing, he doesn't need to run into the penalty box to influence the game offensively. And where are all those number 10s? I can see only one. It's actually perfect for Beckenbauer, he doesn't need to run forward but if he gets the space, Maradona can easily drop deep, Henry and Stoichkov will go wide and open up space for him to link up with Pelé. I can't think of a better setup for Beckenbauer to shine in.

Oh and Beckenbauer is never wasted. He's way too good as a defender to be called wasted even if he's solely used for man-marking the opponent's best player.

Of course his passing is great, he is still effective, but it's clear to everyone that he is under utilised. It's bound to happen with with players as domineering as him and Maradona, one will have to take a back seat.

You can only see one number ten? Pele and Maradona, that's two obvious ones. And with those wingers who are cutting inside they are also in and around the number ten area which means a bit of a cluster feck.

Antos right side is dead, completely. Solely focused on stopping the opposition. With the opposition being Best and Santos, I'd suggest that they won't be successful in thier task and that Best will have lots of joy.

 

[antohan]

I think this was a productive area of debate though, you have agreed with what I have said but then explained Facchetti's involvement better, so it makes sense.

Yes it was mate, that's why I went into detail, I could see something was not sufficiently clear there. The rinse and repeat I was referring to earlier are posts which state the same as before. I'm not keen on repeating myself like a madman.

 

[Balu]

Of course his passing is great, he is still effective, but it's clear to everyone that he is under utilised. It's bound to happen with with players as domineering as him and Maradona, one will have to take a back seat.

You can only see one number ten? Pele and Maradona, that's two. And with wingers you are cutting inside they are also in and around the number ten area which means a bit of a cluster feck.

Nonsense, it was never a problem with Netzer in 72, for example. Pelé isn't playing as a number 10 when Beckenbauer moves forward. Why should he? Doesn't make sense at all. He's a clear number 9 and he was outstanding as a number 9.

When Beckenbauer moves forward with the ball, Henry won't cut in, he stays wide to open up space. Football is played with only one ball and players are capable to move without it. You make it sound like the moment Anto is in attack every player will pull his trademark move at the same time, whether he has the ball or not. That's not how football works.

 

[antohan]

Antos right side is dead, completely. Solely focused on stopping the opposition.

Stoichkov with Maradona's service is never dead. And then there's the one-twos with Pelé. Don't be silly.

Unfortunately Santos and Baresi know better and won't be lured into the false sense of security the Cutch fanboi brigade are trying to induce on them and their manager.

 

[Fergus' son]

Nonsense, it was never a problem with Netzer in 72, for example. Pelé isn't playing as a number 10 when Beckenbauer moves forward. Why should he? Doesn't make sense at all. He's a clear number 9 and he was outstanding as a number 9.

When Beckenbauer moves forward with the ball, Henry won't cut in, he stays wide to open up space. Football is played with only one ball and players are capable to move without it. You make it sound like the moment Anto is in attack every player will pull his trademark move at the same time, whether he has the ball or not. That's not how football works.

Netzer was clearly subordinate though, with these too it's not quite so clear.

Pele is a number ten naturally.

Football is only played with one ball eh? Thanks for that insight.

Stoichkov with Maradona's service is never dead. And then there's the one-twos with Pelé. Don't be silly.

Unfortunately Santos and Baresi know better and won't be lured into the false sense of security the Cutch fanboi brigade are trying to induce on them and their manager.

Stoichkov is running around doing a marking job from what I gather, Maradona is in the centre. Of course, with the quality of players on show 'dead' is going too far but responding by saying 'Maradonas so great his service is never dead' is lazy. It's true of his players too, none of which are solely there to stop an opposition player how you have described Stoichkov. Playing someone a ala Rooney on the left in a draft final win so many great players to choose from isn't great IMO, tactically it make some sense . It's a question of wether it will pay off, personally I think Best will eventually get the better of him and then he's waste his game trying to do a task that he ultimately doesn't succeed in.

 

[antohan]

Netzer was clearly subordinate though, with these too it's not quite so clear.

Pele is a number ten naturally.

Football is only played with one ball eh? Thanks for that insight.

Keep teaching football to Balu, please. Particularly regarding German players. : popcorngif:

Stoichkov is running around doing a marking job from what I gather

Not when I have the ball, clearly.

responding by saying 'Maradonas so great his service is never dead' is lazy.

Now I understand why you never get my posts. You either just scan them or can't read. That is lazy.

Playing someone a ala Rooney on the left in a draft final win so many great players to choose from isn't great IMO, tactically it make some sense

Tactically it makes a lot of sense, don't come across as daft for being tight with your praise on anything related to my side.

Football is a team game. You rely on your squad and draws set you up against different teams which require you to resort to what is available in it. The only player I've come across who could be doing a better job than Stoichkov is right now was Boniek, but I'm glad it was Pelé and Figueroa I picked instead.

I find it funny you have the cheek to criticise my squad planning when out of 13 players you drafted 4 sweepers and then couldn't change your tactics precisely because you didn't have not just a right winger but anyone who could play on the right in a remotely accomplished way.

 

[Fergus' son]

Just putting my thoughts forward, keep throwing round childish insults if you like antohan.

 

[Moby]

And then he calls others touchy.

 

[Fergus' son]

Anto admitted that he stands little chance of winning this fixture a few days ago, barring a 'tactical brainfart' were his words.

Anto would vote for clutch if he was a neutral.

 

[Balu]

Netzer was clearly subordinate though, with these too it's not quite so clear.

No. Netzer wasn't subordinate. Beckenbauer playing deep, Netzer linking defense with attack was well balanced. I really don't see a problem with Beckenbauer behind Maradona in midfield and Pelé playing up top. Beckenbauer is by far the least demanding playmaker out of the all time greats, imo. He won't have any problems with Maradona on the ball and pick his spots to shine when necessary, just like Maradona won't mind giving him the ball when he's heavily man-marked. Both have done it in big games. It's not comparable to that Garrincha, Maradona, Cruyff midfield, we saw in the semi final.

Football is only played with one ball eh? Thanks for that insight.

I really wasn't sure if you knew since you kept insisting that Henry and Stoichkov will come inside to crowd the penalty box when Beckenbauer moves forward to use open space. Either you think Beckenbauer was an idiot or there has to be a second ball for Henry.

 

[antohan]

NOT PICKING PAUL MCGRATH AT RIGHT BACK TO GET A MARGINAL IMPROVEMENT ON THE RIGHT WING IS WHAT I CALL A TACTICAL BRAINFART.

It's exactly what I had in mind when I posted that, marketing being prioritised over tactics.

I even wrote my game script stating I expected to see McGrath on the pitch. Henry vs. McGrath would be a much harder sell, even 2v1, both in terms of real defensive solidity and marketing.

 

[Fergus' son]

No. Netzer wasn't subordinate. Beckenbauer playing deep, Netzer linking defense with attack was well balanced. I really don't see a problem with Beckenbauer behind Maradona in midfield and Pelé playing up top. Beckenbauer is by far the least demanding playmaker out of the all time greats, imo. He won't have any problems with Maradona on the ball and pick his spots to shine when necessary, just like Maradona won't mind giving him the ball when he's heavily man-marked. Both have done it in big games. It's not comparable to that Garrincha, Maradona, Cruyff midfield, we saw in the semi final.

I really wasn't sure if you knew since you kept insisting that Henry and Stoichkov will come inside to crowd the penalty box when Beckenbauer moves forward to use open space. Either you think Beckenbauer was an idiot or there has to be a second ball for Henry.

I respect your opinion, but I won't just take it as fact because you are German as Anto seems to be suggesting with all due respect, you wouldn't take my word as final on English players would you!?

The coming inside bit is what I have gathered from Antohan's ramblings so far.

 

[antohan]

I respect your opinion, but I won't just take it as fact because you are German as Anto seems to be suggesting with all due respect, you wouldn't take my word as final on English players would you!?

Not because he is German, just because he clearly knows his stuff AND is bound to know his own players much better than you. Deadly combination, but yeah, go ahead.

 

[Fergus' son]

"Knows his stuff" because he agrees with you, sounds like typical antohan thinking for sure.

 

[Cutch]

We've been goin round in circles a bit here last few hours so i'm not gonna bother going over old ground. Ultimately people will make up their own mind regarding the 2 teams.

I do think Best and Ronaldo would ultimately be the difference in this game. Their ability in one on one situations to beat players, their pace, trickery etc, and the significant attention that both will require from the opposition (doubling up etc) should create significant room for the likes of Di Stefano and Edwards bursting forward. Stoitchkov and Henry don't really compare in this regard. On a good day a fullback could contain either, wherea Best and Ronaldo are basically unstopable. If Anto wants Facchetti to attack to provide his width then fair enough, i just think its more likely to play in to my hands.

 

[Balu]

I respect your opinion, but I won't just take it as fact because you are German as Anto seems to be suggesting with all due respect, you wouldn't take my word as final on English players would you!?

The coming inside bit is what I have gathered from Antohan's rumblings so far.

Of course, you're allowed to disagree. Would be less fun, if everyone had the same opinion.

I wouldn't take your word on english players as final but I wouldn't disagree if I haven't seen several games and formed an opinion. For example, I won't comment on George Best or Bobby Charlton on here because clearly you guys should know better than me. I don't know, how much you've seen of germany in 72, but I can't believe someone would call Netzer subordinate in these games.

And yes, I'm german, born and raised close to Munich, and followed Bayern and Germany all my life. But that shouldn't be the reason why you agree with me. If you think what I write makes no sense, point it out.

 

[paceme]

I've voted Cutch.

Antohan should try werewolf. He's annoying enough.

 

[Cutch]

NOT PICKING PAUL MCGRATH AT RIGHT BACK TO GET A MARGINAL IMPROVEMENT ON THE RIGHT WING IS WHAT I CALL A TACTICAL BRAINFART.

It's exactly what I had in mind when I posted that, marketing being prioritised over tactics.

I even wrote my game script stating I expected to see McGrath on the pitch. Henry vs. McGrath would be a much harder sell, even 2v1, both in terms of real defensive solidity and marketing.

I'll be honest. I'm not old enough to have seen much of Paul McGrath but i only knew of him as a centre half. His era wasn't a successful time for United so it wasn't worth watching back much. The thought never crossed my mind. If that counts as a tactical brainfart then fair enough. Ronaldo over Figo was a no brainer as far as i was concerned, a player who i genuinely believe will be considered an all time great when he finishes, and one with the athleticism and power to complement Bests trickery on the other side.

 

[Fergus' son]

Of course, you're allowed to disagree. Would be less fun, if everyone had the same opinion.

I wouldn't take your word on english players as final but I wouldn't disagree if I haven't seen several games and formed an opinion. For example, I won't comment on George Best or Bobby Charlton on here because clearly you guys should know better than me. I don't know, how much you've seen of germany in 72, but I can't believe someone would call Netzer subordinate in these games.

And yes, I'm german, born and raised close to Munich, and followed Bayern and Germany all my life. But that shouldn't be the reason why you agree with me. If you think what I write makes no sense, point it out.

Indeed, I'm not sure subordinate is what I meant. I meant to get across that if anyone is 'the man' out of he and Beckenbauer, then it's the latter. With Maradona and Franz it's not so clear IMO.

I'll point you to this post:

Interesting, I'd say the exact opposite! Versatile is an understatement andof course very team-orientated but at the same time I've seen few players try to run the game like he did. Di Stéfano, Beckenbauer, Maradona...very few others. Whereas Pelé and Messi are unbelivably talented but somehow found a way to exert their phenomenal influence over the game without really trying to take the limelight and run the show. Likewise for Best and Ronaldo x2. That's what I like about wingers actually - they're not necessarily selfless players but they're providers and stick to their relatively simple tasks, allowing the other attackers to really run things.

That's not a criticism of Thisistheone's team at all btw, he has one of the most selfless runners in the draft up front which is a huge bonus and Charlton's only flaw was that he went for the shot too often, other than that he was a perfect team player. I think he can make it work.

It's not quite clear wether the poster believes Beckenbauer falls into the category with Pele, Messi best etc but it's that point that I was trying to get across.

More a point of discussion than anything else...

 

[Snow]

Think your second point Gio is answered by the third. It would be madness surely considering who they're up against for either to cross the half way line.

Of course not. Football isn't such a rigid game that full backs just stay put. You saw how United defended against Real the other day. Rafael did attack when the opportunity presented itself. The opposition can't score if you have the ball. You trust your own ability in finishing off attacks and play the odds of you doing it more than your opponent if you want to win the game. It only takes the one goal to get ahead and then you can sit back a bit more if you want.

 

[Gio]

There's one glaring weak link in this entire match and it's on your right flank. That decides games. They are all great players, all can produce moments of magic, but a glaring weakness is significantly more likely to settle a game.

There's two weakspots for me. That one you've cited and your own when Facchetti joins Henry. Obviously Facchetti's powers of recovery are excellent and Rijkaard exudes ruthless discipline, but I'd fear for him one-on-one out by the touchline, especially if Ronaldo's fed an early ball from Hierro.

 

[antohan]

I'll be honest. I'm not old enough to have seen much of Paul McGrath but i only knew of him as a centre half. His era wasn't a successful time for United so it wasn't worth watching back much. The thought never crossed my mind.

Fair enough mate, it's clear you had very good reasons not to pick him. Not a brainfart but an unintentional blunder then.

There's another major tactical problem in your team which can be easily solved, which is why I'm not giving it away until we are into the second half and you've missed the opportunity to use your half time teamtalk to get players mentally drilled for it.

That one is a brainfart. A massive one.

 

[Cutch]

Of course not. Football isn't such a rigid game that full backs just stay put. You saw how United defended against Real the other day. Rafael did attack when the opportunity presented itself. The opposition can't score if you have the ball. You trust your own ability in finishing off attacks and play the odds of you doing it more than your opponent if you want to win the game. It only takes the one goal to get ahead and then you can sit back a bit more if you want.

That was the game i was thinking about first and foremost actually as it was the most recent. Rafael barely crossed the half way line the whole first half, and when we did double up on Ronaldo it created notable space for others.

I accept now that Facchetti is under instruction to get forward, he has to as Anto's left is the only side with width, but as i said earlier i think this would cause more harm than good.