How long is this going to take? 
All-Time Fantasy Draft - EDogen v Brwned
- Thread starter Brwned
- Start date
I doubt he's even opened the thread and I'm certain he won't bother reading any of the thread even if he agrees. I've just not PM'd him yet. What's the rush?
There is no rush, it's just a funny situation.
I PMd pete, he just replied he will be honoured.
I don't think he realised it was 8 pages of random tie-break discussions.
PS: Sorry I wasn't around to sort this out earlier, was busy with some complications with the go live I had yesterday and couldn't keep up with the discussions.
I don't think he realised it was 8 pages of random tie-break discussions.
PS: Sorry I wasn't around to sort this out earlier, was busy with some complications with the go live I had yesterday and couldn't keep up with the discussions.
If my opinion is still wanted it would be Brwned. Edogen has hit on 3 players who I'm less enamoured with than most in Moore, Romario and Cruyff.
Knobs. It was written on the wall since the first page when pete was quoted as not rating Moore and preferring Ferdinand!
Thanks Pete
Thanks Pete
Are you kidding?? They posted all this just for you..
I am playing my 4-3-3 formation.
• In goal I have Neville Southall not much to say about that.
• My central defence is Moore and Desailly who will form a great partnership, complementing each other well. Moore with his phenomenal reading of the game together with Desailly with his physical presence. With the help of my midfield three they will have a good chance to keep Spencer and Di Stefano under control.
• My full backs are both two very good defensive defenders who will have main focus on defending, this since I have two attacking wingers in Cruyff and Figo. Schnellinger will have the licence to go forward when the time is right since Cruyff will roam around throughout the pitch, but Burgnich will mainly have a defensive duty since that was his greatest aspect of his game and the fact that he is playing behind Figo.
• My central midfielders are Redondo, Essien and Guardiola, they will dictate the play from deep and make sure that their presence in the middle of the park will give my team an advantage. They are tactically perfect players who will give Falcao and Keane a real match in the middle. Redondo has shown that he can boss a midfield against Roy Keane before. Essien brings a monster engine to my side in both defence and attack. Guardiola will thrive in a midfield three as a pivote like he did for the Barcelona dream team.
• I mentioned my wingers, Cruyff and Figo. Two attacking wingers who will have different roles. Figo will act as a real right winger while Cruyff has a free role to run the game starting out on the left. But he will roam around finding spaces, he will go deep getting the ball, he will cut inside and leave the left side for Schnellinger to work on and we all know how much creativity Cruyff brings into the team.
• And I have saved my goal scoring machine until last, Redondo, Essien, Guardiola, Cruyff and Figo. There is just so much creativity in there so Romario will get his chances and he will score from those chances.
Defence: A solid back four with Southall as my anchor. They will have a great shield from Redondo, Essien and Guardiola in front of them. Figo and Cruyff both had physique to help out in defence. Essien with a special assignment to help out Burgnich with Giggs since Burgnich will need that help.
Attack: Guardiola and Redondo have a passing range and vision that not many other central midfielders can offer, they will pick out the front three with pinpoint passes. Essien at his peak when given license to go forward is a threat with his shooting and powerful runs. It is easy to forget that he was arguably the best box-to-box midfielder in the world just a few years back. My wingers are offering my team the width with their wing-play together with mainly Schnellinger who will get forward when Cruyff goes inside the pitch. Romario with his great ability to get off his marker will get chances to finish off. As I see it I have threats from all corners of the pitch with my team.
Finally I believe in my team since:
• I feel I can match up the midfield battle with my three central midfielders.
• I hold my central defence as stronger with Moore superior to Germano.
• I hold Romario as superior to Spencer.
• Cruyff has more freedom than Di Stefano who will need to help Keane and Falcao more than Cruyff has to help my midfield.
• Talking about the wings (both full backs and wingers) there is not much between the sides.
..and good luck, two good teams out there!
There we have it folks
Did anyone seriously expect him to trawl through eight pages of tripe to make up his mind?
He's done what most of the other 50 voters did: look at both teams and made a decision on the spot based on what he feels would be the better team.
I PMd pete, he just replied he will be honoured.
I don't think he realised it was 8 pages of random tie-break discussions.
PS: Sorry I wasn't around to sort this out earlier, was busy with some complications with the go live I had yesterday and couldn't keep up with the discussions.
What did you implement?
I read their last will and testament but basically made my own mind up.I kind of think Brwned and EDogen did..
Then I say congrats Brwned! Of course I wanted to go through and eye up reinforcements for my team for later rounds. Think both teams are really good and if it was a game I was not involved in, I still do not know who I would have voted for.
On my own team I never was pleased with either Essien or Guardiola but thought that I could fix that later but ending up playing against Keane and Falcao was maybe the worst thing that could happen. Also Burgnich I thought a lot about him, knew about his right back play in a special formation for Inter but thought that most people would not know that and attack just that. Of course when I saw I was playing Brwned I suspected that he would target that.
Other than that I was really pleased with my team, I could surely have done better picks than both Essien, Guardiola and Burgnich but after the pick of Essien I messed most things up.
And a few points about Brwneds team, I think his team is better as a working unit than my team but of course I was never going to say that during the game. That whole midfield is magical, Spencer I can honestly say that I haw bad knowledge of but of what I know he seems to be a great striker with that players around him.
Going back to the defence, it is good but surely room for future improvements. I will follow Brwneds team during the tournament and I wish all the luck in future games.
And that was a great game and I was at no point confident of a win, I was just sitting there waiting for the turn around. Going up against Brwned will always mean a storm of arguments against you and maybe I was too easy on that, could have responded a bit more of that to fight back but I did not. But I really enjoyed it, just like I did in the newbies. That time I reached the final, now I did not but same fun both times.
On my own team I never was pleased with either Essien or Guardiola but thought that I could fix that later but ending up playing against Keane and Falcao was maybe the worst thing that could happen. Also Burgnich I thought a lot about him, knew about his right back play in a special formation for Inter but thought that most people would not know that and attack just that. Of course when I saw I was playing Brwned I suspected that he would target that.
Other than that I was really pleased with my team, I could surely have done better picks than both Essien, Guardiola and Burgnich but after the pick of Essien I messed most things up.
And a few points about Brwneds team, I think his team is better as a working unit than my team but of course I was never going to say that during the game. That whole midfield is magical, Spencer I can honestly say that I haw bad knowledge of but of what I know he seems to be a great striker with that players around him.
Going back to the defence, it is good but surely room for future improvements. I will follow Brwneds team during the tournament and I wish all the luck in future games.
And that was a great game and I was at no point confident of a win, I was just sitting there waiting for the turn around. Going up against Brwned will always mean a storm of arguments against you and maybe I was too easy on that, could have responded a bit more of that to fight back but I did not. But I really enjoyed it, just like I did in the newbies. That time I reached the final, now I did not but same fun both times.
Good job Edogen, you were incredibly unlucky tbf. Besides central midfield your team is the best in the entire tournament IMO, but going against Brwned's centre mid was always going to be your teams achilles heel.
Any other team and I think you'd have gone through!
Any other team and I think you'd have gone through!
Why was falcao nicknamed the 8th king of rome?
Good post. I was a bit concerned with Cruyff moving out wide and creating some distance between him and Romario. Although Cruyff would invariably drift into the centre to dictate, prompting Romario to make a reverse run behind the centre-halves, but fundamentally he's a bit isolated as you've said.
You could've had Zambrotta at right-back.
Zambrotta was in my thoughts. But went for Burgnich, I did read a lot of good things about him. But think now that Zambrotta would have worked better.
I was surprised he was left at the end.
I don't agree about the view on your midfield though. Guardiola, Redondo and Essien (or Cruyff as the attacker) is barely being bettered in my view. Looking at the order, you could have got Yaya Toure over Essien, but in my opinion that would've only been more popular because people have a short memory of Essien's impact on Chelsea's best team.
I don't agree about the view on your midfield though. Guardiola, Redondo and Essien (or Cruyff as the attacker) is barely being bettered in my view. Looking at the order, you could have got Yaya Toure over Essien, but in my opinion that would've only been more popular because people have a short memory of Essien's impact on Chelsea's best team.
I reckon you seriously underrate Di Stéfano if you think there's not much between the two midfields. Zidane and Keane rolled into one. Essien's a better player than Toure but he's up against a team where Keane is my weakest midfielder so he just doesn't cut it. Individually you can only argue Redondo bettering one of Keane/Falcao, the other two battles go to me.
Because Di Stefano is predominantly a forward player or 'in the hole', like Cruyff.
Zidane and Keane rolled into one?! No chance. He might be a better player than both, but his style is not comparable. He didn't score the goals he did by mucking into midfield like Roy Keane.
What's most impressive about Di Stéfano is his ability to dominate all areas of the pitch. Not his goals record, not his technique, not his leadership, but his remarkable ability to excel in all areas of the the game no matter where he is on the pitch. The amount of times he wins the ball back at left back never mind his own half is just outrageous. You're completely misrepresenting Di Stéfano. He was a midfield general not a forward player - he just had this exceptional capacity for goalscoring mixed in with it.
That's the thing here, Di Stéfano, Maradona and Pelé are almost so good than it can't be fathomable to those who haven't seen them. If you were to describe Maradona to someone who hasn't seen him then it would just seem like pure hyperbole, and that's what it will seem like here. I'll just refer to Miguel Munoz saying "it's like having two players in every position" and Bobby Charlton - the man who played with Duncan Edwards, remember - calling him the most complete player he's seen. The most complete player he's seen was of course a midfield general, not a forward. His style is very much comparable. He was a steely character like Keane who bullied the opposition and despised losing so much that Gento was scared to come into training smiling in the week after a loss, and he had the class and style of Zidane. Just look at those iconic step-overs - fast forward 50 years and put him on perfect pitches wth super-light balls and he'd look every bit as elegant as Zidane.
That's the thing here, Di Stéfano, Maradona and Pelé are almost so good than it can't be fathomable to those who haven't seen them. If you were to describe Maradona to someone who hasn't seen him then it would just seem like pure hyperbole, and that's what it will seem like here. I'll just refer to Miguel Munoz saying "it's like having two players in every position" and Bobby Charlton - the man who played with Duncan Edwards, remember - calling him the most complete player he's seen. The most complete player he's seen was of course a midfield general, not a forward. His style is very much comparable. He was a steely character like Keane who bullied the opposition and despised losing so much that Gento was scared to come into training smiling in the week after a loss, and he had the class and style of Zidane. Just look at those iconic step-overs - fast forward 50 years and put him on perfect pitches wth super-light balls and he'd look every bit as elegant as Zidane.
In fact I'll refer back to your very own thread with a man who lived through Di Stéfano's era:
If a fan's view doesn't count then let's listen to some of the most successful players and managers in the history of the game:
Does that really sound like a forward to you?
Good point about perfect pitches. I'm assuming these draft games are being played out in modern conditions & rules, so I can bring up the point about Maradona doing what he did on poor pitches with defenders hacking him down from behind. Today he'd be pretty much unplayable.
Same for Pelé and Di Stéfano.
Same for Pelé and Di Stéfano.
For a second I thought I'm in a cricket draft thread.
Yeah I was watching the '86 final the other day and the state of the Aztec pitch was ridiculous - the ball bobbling up after nearly every pass - yet Maradona mastered it like he was strolling around a bowling green.
Nice write up on Di Stefano, Brwned. I enjoyed that. The very best players like Pele and Maradona could play anywhere and Cruyff's Netherlands tried it practically with the whole team doing it. Maybe I am underplaying Di Stefano's role, I just think roles were possibly a bit harder to define in his day. I don't think anyone knows Duncan Edwards' true role, which is owed to her class, versatility and how football has changed. I think against the very best (which this draft is), he's going to be needed in a forward role, but no doubt his role in midfield will also be huge, I stand corrected on that one. I also think it's safe to say that the standard of opposition in his day isn't what it is for Messi and Ronaldo now, hence why I think he's going to be needed as an attacker. Otherwise all these players would have free roles.
To describe Maradona or Pele, yes it would be like hyperbole and even though both could probably play anywhere and were often found doing things all over the pitch, you'd still have to say they're forward players.
All the pitches in '86 were an absolute dog. Bone dry and the most inconsistent amount of bobbles you didn't know where the ball would end up. Which as you say, makes Maradona's achievements (and particularly goals against England and Belgium) all the more ridiculous.
To describe Maradona or Pele, yes it would be like hyperbole and even though both could probably play anywhere and were often found doing things all over the pitch, you'd still have to say they're forward players.
All the pitches in '86 were an absolute dog. Bone dry and the most inconsistent amount of bobbles you didn't know where the ball would end up. Which as you say, makes Maradona's achievements (and particularly goals against England and Belgium) all the more ridiculous.
Because Rome had 7 Kings, so the next after 7 is 8?
Not being facetious, unless you didn't know he played for Roma there's nothing much to explain there.
He always described himself as a "todocampista" (allfielder).
There was a story from one of his teammates about him once stopping a ball on the goalline (GK beaten), passing to the left back, receiving in midfield, dribbling a player, passing to Gento, and heading Gento's cross in. The key thing being that he had stopped it on the very goalline, that sort of move from helping with defence and culminating in a goal was not rare, the goalline interception and goal a few passes after is what took the biscuit.
Di Stéfano's take on it? "Coincidence".
I have to say, I was looking forward to the prospect of potentially having him up for grabs! Not that it influenced my vote (I voted Brwned), but it was a mouthwatering prospect. Would have comfortably been the best player to have gone out so far.
I got that but was wondering if it came after one match where he did something special or was it just due to his all round consistency. Its an excellent nickname as well so was hoping there might be some kind of story behind it.
Nah, just pure, unadultered and extremely in-your-face Roman love.
I agree with pretty much all of that, although I don't think the standard of opposition will change his role much. I think it would impact on his ability to be all over the pitch and score the insane number of goals that he did, though. Make no mistake the standard of defending then even in European Cup finals isn't what it soon became with Inter's catenaccio side on the horizon. In the "greatest European Cup final of all-time" there were some very poor goals - the score is not what made it great of course, but it's worth addressing. It's not that there was poor defending, it's just the cavalier nature of two European Cup finalists was so naive. The cynical nature of La Grande Inter soon changed that. So I think you've got the decision of limiting his capacity for goals or limiting his capacity for influencing all aspects of the play - with Keane in there I've allowed him the licence to get forward and get those goals.
I'd be more than happy to have him, Falcao and Tigana in a pure midfield three for example. I'd have no issue whatsoever with him as a genuine midfield general. As it is, I've got Keane in there already so you're right in calling Di Stéfano something of a forward - that's the instructions I've given him. I could have them two in a genuine midfield three and on paper that'd look great but in reality you don't want two generals playing in the same area. He's playing further forward but he's still performing his midfield duties and that's what I wanted to stress - he's a complete nuisance to Guardiola or whoever else they have sitting deep and he's helping us retain the ball as much as he's contributing in the goals column. Some might say that a general like Di Stéfano would almost be limited by playing in the same side as Keane but Di Stéfano's a consummate professional and very humble; he's consistently said he's just a cog in the team and without that appreciation for the team as a whole he wouldn't have been the same player. So I expect he and Keane to put the team first and combine together to form one of the most formidable cores you can imagine.
When I think of Maradona, Pelé and Di Stéfano I do see three complete players, but that's different. With Maradona I think "genius", with Pele it's "perfection" and Di Stéfano it's "complete". So while they could all play anywhere on the pitch and still stand out as special players, it's not the same thing. It's not that Di Stéfano could play anywhere on the pitch, it's that he did play all over the pitch. He was still a special player while Pelé was at his peak and even then you don't see Pelé influencing the game in so many different areas. Technically, physically, mentally - Pelé's just the perfectly crafted footballer, and he'd have been a sensational centre half if someone asked him to. More so than Don Alfredo. It's just that Di Stéfano did this all of his own accord because he had this innate understanding of the game (in the same way Cruyff did). He was total football before it had even been invented.
Cruyff and Michels revolutionised the game, Beckenbauer and Schön revolutionised the sweeper role - Di Stéfano didn't revolutionise anything because no-one else at that time could match that vision off the pitch or completeness on it. He just stood above the rest. Bobby's quote of "Who is this man ... the combination of qualities was mesmerising" - that's me all over. I'd watched Maradona from when he was a kid to when he was on his last legs, I'd seen Pelé as that outstanding 17 year old to the wise #10 he became in his 30s, I thought it's only downhill from here. None of them impressed me as much as Di Stéfano. I don't think he's better than either of them but his way of playing the game, the aura he possessed...it's phenomenal. I only wish I could see him in his early 20s to watch that development into the total footballer he became. Supposedly he was quite quick in his early years hence the name Saeta rubia, the golden arrow, but I've only seen him in his 30s. Still impressive that he possessed the pace he did then but I can't imagine the player he was beforehand.
As you can see I could talk about the man all day long but I won't bore anyone any longer, I'll just leave you with some more quotes from notable journalists. Nowhere near as credible as the comments from Herrera, Charlton and co. but still, it gives you an idea of the player: