ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

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Drifter said:
Revealed: The Glazer family's staggering £1.1billion debt that will stun Manchester United fans | Mail Online
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Same story in the Guardian:

Revealed: truth about Glazers business empire beyond Manchester United | Football | The Guardian

The Manchester United Supporters Trust has called on its members to delay renewing their season tickets until the Glazers sell up, and these revelations of First Allied's position highlight how much the family needs United fans to keep paying their money over. Only by United remaining commercially successful can the family pay their debts, and earn a return from what was the world's richest, debt-free club.
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The numbers involved are staggering, how those feckers can continue saying 'everything is fine' is beyond me.

I wonder if we had a Liverpool type season (shit in the PL, fail in CL and fail to qualify for next years CL) would they be forced to sell?
 
roodboy said:
:boring:

What fears have you got exactly?
You should be happy of the Glazers are struggling elsewhere as it means they are more likely to sell if they get a good offer
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Not according to them ,they see us as the cash cow. There is some sister, cant recall her name, drawing millons from the club to play the rich bitch. To the ordinary season ticket holder saddled with the ACS this is becoming a major problem
 
ha_rooney said:
Same story in the Guardian:

Revealed: truth about Glazers business empire beyond Manchester United | Football | The Guardian



The numbers involved are staggering, how those feckers can continue saying 'everything is fine' is beyond me.

I wonder if we had a Liverpool type season (shit in the PL, fail in CL and fail to qualify for next years CL) would they be forced to sell?
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It is hard to see what would make them sell, they are thick skinned gits. Owning our great club gives them prestige and they will be desperate to hang on to that. The one thing that would make them sell would be if they lost the support of SAF, without him they would be finished, lets hope he sees through them.
 
Crerand Legend said:
When you see how much trouble they are in they aint that crafty. Lets hope they sell us before their flimsy empire comes crashing down
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Since 2005, how many of us have been deceived into believing they are successful businessmen until this reveal. Some of us worry they will ruin United and can't care less. Glazers know if S.A.F. goes against them, United will suffer first.
 
Crerand Legend said:
Not according to them ,they see us as the cash cow. There is some sister, cant recall her name, drawing millons from the club to play the rich bitch. To the ordinary season ticket holder saddled with the ACS this is becoming a major problem
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:lol: Are you serious?
 
Revealed: The Glazer family's staggering £1.1billion debt that will stun Manchester United fans | Mail Online

Seems its gonna be quite a program.

How anyone can justify them taking on even more debt is beyond me.

Basically they are in that deep, theres no way they can get out of it. They've taken out loan after loan after loan, and they've just saddled United with another debt for the next 7 years.

Anyone who believes that them being in so much debt wont affect United is living in cuckoo land, because they now have access to Uniteds money to try shore up the shit they are in in the US.

I said only last week that their businesses in the US were going belly up, and that they could if they so choose now use Uniteds money to bail themselves out the shit.

They've already taken some money from United in low rate loans.

Expect there to be shed loads more magically wandering off into their own bank accounts.
 
roodboy said:
:boring:

What fears have you got exactly?
You should be happy if the Glazers are struggling elsewhere as it means they are more likely to sell if they get a good offer
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Thats the closest you've got to admitting United are in the shit if they dont sell up.
 
Crerand Legend said:
Not according to them ,they see us as the cash cow. There is some sister, cant recall her name, drawing millons from the club to play the rich bitch. To the ordinary season ticket holder saddled with the ACS this is becoming a major problem
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What!? Link please...
 
the andersred blog: Debt Junkies: The true story of First Allied Corporation

A very well explained piece by Andersred that goes into the intricacies of their business.

What is terrifying is realising they are $143 million in debt at the buccaneers too. With the NFL imposing a maximum debt limit of only $150 million it gives them very little room for error, and with them suffering a large downturn in trade there, theres little wonder they are spending less than any other club in the NFL. They simply dont have the money.

They have sold off most of their other assets, and of the three they have left, we know at least one is losing money hand over fist, one is getting deeper and deeper in debt, and the third is almost maxed out on its credit limit.

Anyone care to spin a positive light on all this ?

Bear in mind that the amount of money they owe to the banks, now exceeds the value of United.

Even if they were to sell United, they still wouldnt be out of debt.
 
I just have to hear the response to this one..

The Glazers are not business geniuses. Malcolm's long term track record is better of course, but since he became incapacitated, the whole structure has begun to creak at the foundations. Adding United's debt (including the PIKs) to Forbes' estimate of the Bucs' borrowing, the mortgages described above, and estimates for the family's residential mortgages, we arrive at a figure of at least $1.8bn of total Glazer family debt. This is supported by $225-250m of EBITDA (depending on how far the Bucs' EBITDA fell last season from the $69m earned the year before), a terrifying debt to income ratio of almost 8x

Try and worm your way out of this one Roodboy...
 
afrocentricity said:
You sound almost happy fred :confused:
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What this will do is prove beyond all doubt that they simply are not in a position to own United, and if Andersred has uncovered the truth, it will prove the Glazers far from being able to hang onto United are in fact in such a mess, a sale is almost inevitable.

Am I happy that they are in such a mess they may have to sell up.

You bet your fecking ass I am.
 
This programme looks like it's going to be a grim bit of viewing, the aftermath on here will be... well it on't be good that's for sure!
 
Rootcause: Millionaire's / business men are looking to make profit from our club's name and success and dig in to the cash while creating debt to the club.

Current Resolution: The club still is good and solid due to the good work of the best Manager in the world... SAF

Counter Measures: ???

How on earth are we going to stop business men trying to grab on hold of one of the most popular brand names in the world ?

We are a healthy club and we hardly ever lose profit, so for an investor, we are worth the money until we really do struggle which is going to be quite difficult.

So let's all work about how to stop business people from taking advantage of this business, its become a mess, a football club should be owned and cherished by the supporters, the supporters should be able to make their own rules to benefit them AND the club, not benefit just a family of people.

So lets all talk about how to stop them... The green and gold campaign doesn't seem to affect them in anyway and boycotting them by not going to the stadium isn't going to help....
 
What this also reveals quite clearly, is that they havent in fact paid a cent to buy a single share in United.

Its simply all borrowed money.

Their initial £272 million came from taking out huge mortgages on their properties in the US, and they used the money they got from them to buy their stake in United.

Now those mortgages are starting to default, and they dont have the funds to pay them back, and the banks are starting to come knocking on the door.

Almost half their shopping malls are in negative equity, and from what Andersred has discovered, they actually owe more than their shopping centres are worth. Even if they were to sell them they would still have to find money from somewhere to clear off the debts.

Well we know that they dont have the money at Tampa, so that only leaves one option....
 
afrocentricity said:
This programme looks like it's going to be a grim bit of viewing, the aftermath on here will be... well it on't be good that's for sure!
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Unless your name is GCHQ. Then you can spin a positive light on a nuclear bomb landing on Old Trafford and wiping out the first team. At least then they wouldnt have to pay out any wages for a year...
 
..we may, without restriction, make a distribution or loan of up to £70.0 million to our immediate parent company, Red Football Joint Venture Limited, that may, in turn, use the proceeds of that loan for general corporate purposes, including repaying existing indebtedness.

What I would like to know is, this excerpt from the prospectus clearly shows they are able to draw on Uniteds funds and direct them to RFJV.

The question is, what can RFJV do with that money once its out of Uniteds hands and in their bank account.
 
I'm not gonna jump the gun but I struggle to see how you could put a positive spin on this new information...
 
Right here is the crux of the matter, and its something I am desperate to know.

If the Glazers are in such a mess, and the worst case scenario happened that the banks foreclose on many of their assets, would they then become insolvent, and if so how would that affect United.

Just how tied up is United in the Glazer business empire.

If the Glazers go bankrupt, does that automatically mean the banks take ownership of United..
 
I doubt it would be automatic but we would inevitably be sold off if it all fell apart. I guess we know why they want 1.5 bill for Ubited. After selling their least profitable shopping centre it would leave them with their shopping centres and TBBs debt free or damn near it.
 
Most Tampa Bay Bucs fans were saying when the Glazers took Utd over was that they would bring short term success but an aggressive long term plan would mean limited spending and less success as what happened with the Bucs who have not done too much since winning the Super Bowl in 2002. Sound familiar?
Since then they have been mostly average and the 2009 season was their worst season in 20 years according to Wiki!!
 
Ringo 07 said:
Most Tampa Bay Bucs fans were saying when the Glazers took Utd over was that they would bring short term success but an aggressive long term plan would mean limited spending and less success as what happened with the Bucs who have not done too much since winning the Super Bowl in 2002. Sound familiar?
Since then they have been mostly average and the 2009 season was their worst season in 20 years according to Wiki!!
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It goes deeper than that.

They are, for the first time since the Glazers took over, forecasting "blackouts" for Buccs games. A blackout is when a team cannot fill the ground and therefore isnt permitted to sell the games to TV companies.

So much for the 100,000 waiting list to get a ST at the bucs..

Not only that, they are the lowest spending owners in the entire NFL, falling something like £18 million short of the limits imposed by the NFL They are spending something like 30% less than the next lowest spenders.

WIth the Buccs being $143 million in debt and the maximum debt allowable being $150 million, then it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out that they couldnt spend more on the team even if they wanted to. They simply dont have it.
 
Wibble said:
I doubt it would be automatic but we would inevitably be sold off if it all fell apart. I guess we know why they want 1.5 bill for Ubited. After selling their least profitable shopping centre it would leave them with their shopping centres and TBBs debt free or damn near it.
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The problem is those shopping centres arent making them any money, and if Andersred is right, many of those shopping centres will be reposessed by the banks too. What would selling United achieve ? It wouldnt make them properties any more valuable. So they sell off their biggest asset to leave themselves with a lame duck ? Nope.. I cant see it.

The Buccs, well that too is struggling. Again would they sell off United leaving themselves with a company on the slide.. I wouldnt think so.

So actually the most logical solution would be to sell off their other assets, and plough the money into United and try alleviate as much of the debt as they can.

The problem there though, is because those businesses are going tits up, they wouldnt get anything for them. Whos going to buy a load of failing shopping malls or a failing football team starved of investment.

It seems to me they've dug such a big hole, theres no conceivable way out of it.
 
fredthered said:
What this will do is prove beyond all doubt that they simply are not in a position to own United, and if Andersred has uncovered the truth, it will prove the Glazers far from being able to hang onto United are in fact in such a mess, a sale is almost inevitable.

Am I happy that they are in such a mess they may have to sell up.

You bet your fecking ass I am.
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I can understand that you are happy if they sell the club but your joy regarding there personal business problems is bizare.
 
fredthered said:
If the Glazers go bankrupt, does that automatically mean the banks take ownership of United..
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I have no doubts you know this, so stating the obvious. However, it might be useful information to our other readers.

If the individuals go bankrupt then the banks can go after assets/shares owned by the individuals. If the company is LLC/Ltd then the banks can only go after the assets owned by that particular company.
 
7even said:
I can understand that you are happy if they sell the club but your joy regarding there personal business problems is bizare.
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Why? These people are arse-holes who have screwed over United's fans, going against our wishes and treating us with contempt from the start. Songs about them dying may be over the top but I would take great pleasure in seeing the whole parasitic family reduced to poverty. Having to live in one of their own trailers parks would be a nice piece of poetic justice for a start!
 
7even said:
I can understand that you are happy if they sell the club but your joy regarding there personal business problems is bizare.
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Not really. He's been trying very hard to make us realize the trouble utd are in, with many people not willing to listen. I can understand why fred feels some pleasure in being proven right.

Also should we end up in a leeds type collapse, it would feel much better if the entire Glazer empire went down as well.
 
djemba's arse said:
Not really. He's been trying very hard to make us realize the trouble utd are in, with many people not willing to listen. I can understand why fred feels some pleasure in being proven right.

Also should we end up in a leeds type collapse, it would feel much better if the entire Glazer empire went down as well.
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What direct effect do you see Glazers debt on his other business interests having on United ?
 
Dublin Red said:
What direct effect do you see Glazers debt on his other business interests having on United ?
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Well, you could probably do a lot better than listen to my take on financial matters..! ;) But as I see it, this is evidence that the Glazers are having trouble running all their businesses, which doesn't help their credibility when they say they have Utd's debt under control. It also shows that they most likely don't have any cash reserves that they could use if the club isn't able to pay off the debt on its own. It seems more likely to me that utd will be used to finance the other troubled parts of their business than the other way round.
 
Dublin Red said:
What direct effect do you see Glazers debt on his other business interests having on United ?
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Well lets look at this logically.

Their shopping mall business is not making money and as Andersred mentions in that article, Glazer is due to start paying back large sums of money any time shortly.

The shopping malls are only bringing him in around $9 million a year, but that is no where near enough to cover the interest he is paying the banks.

The buccaneers are maxxed out on their credit, so taking money from the Buccs to help sort out his shopping malls isnt an option.

That leaves only one side of his business with any spare capital ( and we know he's got it in the bank at United ).

Previously they couldnt gain access to Uniteds funds as it was tied up in the senior debt, but we are now certain he's removed that through the bond issue. People were certain he was going to use that money to pay off the PIK debts.

But the Glazers have now come out and said they are happy for the PIK debts to remain.

So adding all that up together.

SHopping malls need money
Buccs cant give it
United has it
They are now free to get access to it

Anyone able to work out what they could be planning.
 
7even said:
I can understand that you are happy if they sell the club but your joy regarding there personal business problems is bizare.
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Why? They've screwed over Fred, myself and many other fans who have been priced out or continue to pay through the nose to support a club we love.

They are parasites and deserve removing from any position of power at the club.
 
Fred,

Thought for you - if the banks do indeed take control of United, at least they would sell for a recuperate debts price rather than a make a ridiculous profit price.

RK - it's on!!
 
Well if they have the problems claimed with their shopping mall ventures, I think it's only a matter of months before they'll have to offload United as their debt levels would appear to be a runaway train....
 
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