That is all, thank you.
ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances
- Thread starter sammsky1
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That is all, thank you.
Yes the point is that andersred spent months looking into the minute details of the mortgages on shopping malls in the USA to prove to everyone that the Glazers had no way of paying the PIK without using cash from the club - but guess what? They paid off the PIK without using cash from the club!
So quite clearly it was a big waste of time - if you are still interested in that then more fool you.
Or they just took out further finance to pay the off which will eventually be paid back by the club, hence no real change from before.
So essentially we still don't know where the funds came from?
Creating a new holding company in Delaware to hide the details is kind of strange; they never cared about people knowing about the PIK's in the past, so if it was just a refinance exercise it seems out of character for them to start caring about public perception now to the extent where they'd hide the debt from view.
Maybe the new holding company has major shareholders from Qatar [/shitshirrer]
Creating a new holding company in Delaware to hide the details is kind of strange; they never cared about people knowing about the PIK's in the past, so if it was just a refinance exercise it seems out of character for them to start caring about public perception now to the extent where they'd hide the debt from view.
Maybe the new holding company has major shareholders from Qatar [/shitshirrer]
You are missing my point, I am not making any comment about whether the PIK was paid off or refinanced (we have already done that to death)!
Alright anders!
Nice to know you are still keeping tabs on us over here - have you got any updates on the shopping malls?
Alright anders!
Nice to know you are still keeping tabs on us over here - have you got any updates on the shopping malls?
Had a look the other week and another one went into default. Plus ca change....
Have actually been quite busy. Have been doing real work and stuff on Financial Fair Play with the BBC which may see the light of day some time.
No point reopening PIK gate, but everything I've heard in the market suggests there was a US refinancing and the name Sankaty Advisers keeps coming up.
How's GCHQ's digi-board watch (the true mark of football success) going?
Isn't the point that if it was refinanced, the money to pay it off could yet come from the club, and therefore it's not yet a vindication, and the news today further hints that a refinancing is the most likely scenario?
We're doing great thanks. We're up to 27 commercial partners/sponsors and are enjoying 25%+ year-on-year growth in the commercial division.
PS. Good luck getting anything out of Delaware.
Today's news changes absolutely nothing and Anders knows that.
I didn't think you really had any point?
Would be interested to see the stuff on FFP - have been looking into them myself recently. There are various threads on it in the Football Forum discussing what impact they might have (if any) - should be good for us either way.
Refinance of the PIK was always an option I had mentioned, I'm pretty sure you dismissed it as you thought they would have done it long ago if it was a possibility.
Without knowing the terms, we cant really say much about what it means but I think it is safe to assume that they will be better than what they replaced - wouldnt you agree?
Things got a bit out of hand recently and GCHQ had a brief ban but he is back and on good form as usual - did you buy him his pint yet?
I know they refinanced, you know they refinanced. Every corporate financier in London knows they refinanced. The only questions are a) how much, b) with whom (see my Sankaty comment above) and c) will it require dividend payments out of MUFC.....?
On today's news I'd go for debt raised in RF LP in Nevada secured on RF LLC in Delaware, the 100% owner of RFS Ltd and hence United.
I've got a small hope that a UCC-11 may cast more light on it sometime.
Well it most definitely wasnt my point as we have already had that discussion for about 10 pages of this thread and I have no desire to do it again!
My point was to take the piss out of andersred in the hope of getting him back here and stimulating some debate - worked a treat
Well we know the interest on a refinancing would be between 8.7% (first lien bonds) and 16.25% (old PIKs)!
GCHQ and I are never at the same games. Thanks to the kindness of others (and the occasional tout) I've done about 8 aways this season and he never seems to be there.
Will happily buy him a vin rouge (ou blanc) in Marseille....
Surely you arent still boycotting home games Anders?
Get back to OT mate !
Get back to OT mate !
Simmer!
I take it you're still maintaining your 100% boycott of the club (ie: not giving the club a penny) considering how strongly you argued for that action pre-season ticket renewal deadline? Right?
I can offer you a free ticket for the best game of the season to entice you back, you wouldnt even be paying anything to Uncle Malcolm - surely you wouldnt want to miss the once in a lifetime visit of Crawley Town to the Theatre of Dreams?
But today's ''news'' doesn't bring us any closer to knowing if there actually was a refinancing, does it?
I had assumed that the Glazers refinanced 85-87% of the pik- the part they didn't own- for around 350m dollars.
Some poster on your blog mentioned the existence of Red Football LLC back in Dec 2010.
UCC searches in Delaware can be conducted through 'Authorized Serchers'. I am not sure of the fees or indeed if such a search would yield anymore info
than your entity search.
They've got my One United membership fee and any admin fee on my euroaway tickets. I got a freeby off a mate for Bursaspor home (wasn't worth going but I was at Fergie's charity dinner the night after so was in town).
Have been offered a spare for City, can't decide whether to go.
Have lots of friends who still go.
I was thinking of doing a UCC search but it may be too expensive, I don't know the lag between borrowing and UCC filing and I don't know whether UCC filings apply to all borrowing!
I really cant understand what there is to think about
You say you have already been to a home game this season anyway and the ticket you would use will be paid for whether you use it or not, so what difference does it make now?
Stop dithering and take the ticket - you know it makes sense! You can buy me a pint in the Tollgate after, in lieu of the one you owe to GCHQ
From my limited knowledge of security perfection in the US, lenders might make filings with the relevant Sec of State if the security is deemed to be an intangible security. An equity pledge would be considered an intangible while an asset-backed security wouldn't require registration\filing because legal perfection is bound to the transfer\holding of the security agreement. I stand to be corrected though.
I will have to check on the fees involved.
Anders, how has the bond faired since the pik repayment was made known? The bloomberg reporter who broke the story also mentioned in passing that the Glazers had just previously sought permission from the pikholders to use 50m to reduce the bond debt. If the Glazers had cash to deal with the piks, why seek permission they didn't need?
Edit: "UCC search fee. The fee for a UCC search requ/est communicated on a
UCC1 Financing Statement is $25.00. The filing office has provided a list
of authorized UCC Searchers within the State of Delaware on its website
for the public to contact for all other UCC searches."
Ok.
To get back on topic, the elephant in the room (thread) is that the club will just carry on as normal, with more than adequate resources to enable significant transfer expenditure, even in your scenario whereby a large dividend (c. £100m) outflow takes place.
As I'm sure you're aware, the club's cash reserves will stand at c. £200m on June 30 2011 provided there isn't any significant transfer activity before the end of the financial year. In addition to that, the club currently generates c. £50m cash annually which can be used for transfer expenditure.
So in the grand scheme of things a dividend pay-out would be irrelevant to the club itself. The only real impact would be to the egos of a few posters in this thread (myself included, even though I've already won our bet).
Manchester United owners, the Glazer family, move ownership of the club to a company in Delaware - Telegraph
The RFJV accounts for YE 2010 should be released shortly- we might get a little more info on the corporate restructuring in the notes.
The RFJV accounts for YE 2010 should be released shortly- we might get a little more info on the corporate restructuring in the notes.
So no A1Dan, you won't be allowed to listen in to the conference call.
So no A1Dan, you won't be allowed to listen in to the conference call.
Damn.
Nice of you to think of me though - Can you give me a sneak preview of what you're going to say?
Any indications as to what the results may or may not say?
Quickly go and buy some bonds. I believe they've gone down in value in the last week since the Qataris pulled out of talks !
Naturally, I'll be congratulating Edward Woodward on another excellent quarter of results.
What's the key thing to look out for? Will there be any reduction in the overall debt which is around £510m at the moment isn't it? Is the debt kind of...static now for a while until 2017?
In terms of year on year growth I believe the results will be relatively similar to what was achieved in the first quarter. So c. 8% revenue growth and c. 4% EBITDA growth. Cash reserves will be c. £160m.
The key figures to look out for will be Revenue and EBITDA growth, staff cost growth (wages) and the cash flow data.
Gross debt will remain at c. £500m for the forseeable future. Net debt, which is currently c. £350m, will fluctuate depending on net increases/decreases to cash at bank.
So based on the cash reserves increasing to £160m the net debt should be around £340m?
Yes and that might explain why there have been no significant transfers in since Valencia.
Given that Rooney, Vidic, Evra, JOS, Nani, Berbatov & Carrick (I think) have all recently received improved contracts, what impact will those have of the clubs cash-flow and P&L?
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