Exactly. If SAF were under significant restriction then what would be stopping him from just explaining such to the fans? He needn't attack the owners when doing so. Or he could just refuse to comment on financial matters; it would be an easy out if he were really being put in a compromising position. He doesn't do this though, does he? Instead he speaks at length to reassure us that no such significant restrictions are in place, and all we can do is throw those assurances back in his face and call him a liar (in the nicest possible way in A1Dan's case; can't be seen to be having a go at SAF now, can we?). This is why the notion is ridiculous, it's ridiculous that respect for SAF in some can reach levels so low that they just assume, purely because it suits their preconceptions about the Glazers, that he's decided to systematically, passionately and repeatedly lie to the fans on a regular basis about an issue that is clearly quite important to them, seriously undermining the efforts of those opposing the Glazers, those that apparently SAF secretly agrees with, in the process. It's just blatent paranoia and I find it very disrespectful towards a man who deserves nothing but our utmost trust and respect. I shouldn't have to be explaining this.
ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances
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Exactly. If SAF were under significant restriction then what would be stopping him from just explaining such to the fans? He needn't attack the owners when doing so. Or he could just refuse to comment on financial matters; it would be an easy out if he were really being put in a compromising position. He doesn't do this though, does he? Instead he speaks at length to reassure us that no such significant restrictions are in place, and all we can do is throw those assurances back in his face and call him a liar (in the nicest possible way in A1Dan's case; can't be seen to be having a go at SAF now, can we?). This is why the notion is ridiculous, it's ridiculous that respect for SAF in some can reach levels so low that they just assume, purely because it suits their preconceptions about the Glazers, that he's decided to systematically, passionately and repeatedly lie to the fans on a regular basis about an issue that is clearly quite important to them, seriously undermining the efforts of those opposing the Glazers, those that apparently SAF secretly agrees with, in the process. It's just blatent paranoia and I find it very disrespectful towards a man who deserves nothing but our utmost trust and respect. I shouldn't have to be explaining this.
I am in complete agreement with you. I understand why you asked if I agreed with A1Dan now.
Yes I think militant anti Glazer types like those at MUST have invented all sorts of bullshit to help achieve their purpose. And the worst of it is to imply that the one man who is deserving of our full support and belief has his integrity questioned. Its an absolute disgrace and I welcome those 'fans' to trot on and go elsewhere.
I think you should, actually, as it comes across as nonsense.
I am quite happy to openly say that SAF lies when it is expedient, I have said this many times. I also have no prblem with this - what I do have a problem with is those that chose to pretend it's not the case, in order to furtehr their own agenda.
Unfortunately for the point you seem to be trying to make, it's is an undisputable historical fact - he's done it time and again regarding transfers, injuries, selections etc. If you're basing your point on denying this then we may as well leave it there.
This is not to in any way disrespect him in any way, you are right to say that he deserves nothing but our utmost respect.
But not so much our trust - it's no more relevent to him, in his role, whether you and I believe what he says than it is whetehr some random journalist, or opposition manager does. Sorry if this goes against some kind of over-blown sense of importance, but if it suits SAF's aims as manager of the club, he will quite happily lie to any of us.
This also isn't to say that I can show that he is lying, and certainly not systematically, passionately and repeatedly. It could well be more a case of him telling the truth as it affects him, and not taking into account wider issues, which again is fine, as long as nobody takes it as gospel truth.
But the point is that you are trying to use the fact that he has said all is OK under ther Glazers as some kind of argument winner - "SAF has said it, so either shut up or be burnt as a heretic".
In reality, what he has said is of little weight to the argument. Whether he believes it himself or not, and if he does, whether he is right or not are in no way guaranteed.
You are trying to use his amazing ability as a manager of proof of his infallibility and unwavering honesty, and it just doesn't make sense.
IMHO
The one advantage that SAF has with the Glazers is their ability to say "ye or ne"
immediately to any piece of buiness SAF might wish to do, as opposed to
the referall to the board of a "PLC" structure, which could be more protracted.
As for the above speculations - I think you should all book into a shrink, or
stop reading Freud......
As far as I can discern from the outside, SAF would not consider our ownership
ideal , however , he's realastic enough to know that there's no better alternative
out there for the foreseeable future.....
The one advantage that SAF has with the Glazers is their ability to say "ye or ne"
immediately to any piece of buiness SAF might wish to do, as opposed to
the referall to the board of a "PLC" structure, which could be more protracted.
As for the above speculations - I think you should all book into a shrink, or
stop reading Freud......
As far as I can discern from the outside, SAF would not consider our ownership
ideal , however , he's realastic enough to know that there's no better alternative
out there for the foreseeable future.....
I get where you're coming from, but what about those "fans" who take a comment from SAF like that quoted previously, and use this as proof that the Glazers are fine and we should all drop into line behind them?
For me, these deliberate attempts to use SAF to drive a wedge between supporters, and try and discredit and abuse long-standing supporters, who deeply care about the future of the club... they are worse than any suggestion that SAF may occasionally tell the odd porkie, or not take into account the concerns outside of his role at the club.
You only have to read SAF's speech on the previous page to see that he's speaking from the heart; these aren't porkies about injuries or team selections. If you cannot see that, A1Dan, then I feel sorry for you; you're too far gone in your anti-Glazer paranoia to differentiate between what's real and what's a fabrication of MUST. It's a shame because I don't for one second doubt your support of our club; like Fred you're just letting it become tainted with unnecessary bitterness.
I think we might all be saying the same thing!
I think one can be Anti Glazer because of the bent they have been burdened us with and yet still be grateful to them for ensuring that a working relationship between them and our manger is fully functioning.
I personally don't prescribe to the view that the Glazers are the devil incarnate who need to be extinguished from Planet Trafford at the earliest possible moment.
The reality is that the club has not been in control of its destiny ever since it became a PLC. But compared to having multiple stakeholders that he had to pander to and satisfy, he now has just one: The Glazer family. And I think SAF appreciates that aspect as perversely to what is argued by the likes of MUST, it gives him more control than before.
Anyway, wow, look at the thread, this point has been debated to the nth degree .... and yet here we are in early December, basically top of the table, doing well in Europe and having a squad full of promise and potential.
Lets cut the crap and get to the point - we are not talking about the odd white lie to keep the opposition guessing about which players are fit or the standard public denials to the media about players coming in/out - here we are talking specifically about comments that Fergie has made about our current squad and transfer policy under the Glazers (see the speech that Cider posted on the previous page):
The Gospel According To Fergie
As I see it, there are 2 camps (granted it is not as black and white as this but everyone must lean toward one or the other):
1) You believe what Fergie says about our recent transfer policy (that the Glazers have backed him whenever he asked and that substantial cash is available for players but he doesnt see anyone worth buying so hasnt spent it)
2) You believe Fergie is lying to the fans and covering up for a lack of transfer funds (this also usually leads to the view that our squad is weak as it is has been starved of the necessary funds to keep it strong).
I choose Number 1 - what about you A1Dan ?
The Gospel According To Fergie
As I see it, there are 2 camps (granted it is not as black and white as this but everyone must lean toward one or the other):
1) You believe what Fergie says about our recent transfer policy (that the Glazers have backed him whenever he asked and that substantial cash is available for players but he doesnt see anyone worth buying so hasnt spent it)
2) You believe Fergie is lying to the fans and covering up for a lack of transfer funds (this also usually leads to the view that our squad is weak as it is has been starved of the necessary funds to keep it strong).
I choose Number 1 - what about you A1Dan ?
or
3) We're all gonna die.... (Fred will probably go along with this one)
3) We're all gonna die.... (Fred will probably go along with this one)
I'm afraid I'd choose the first part - it is not as black and white as this.
I doubt the issue has really come to a head so far. We've been very fortunate to get £80m for one player, and have pretty much been able to put bids in for players as Fergie wishes withni the net spend this has enabled.
It's true to say that if he'd had a big disagreement about funds and been severly hampered by it he probably wouldn't be making these statements... he would probably rather walk.
But that isn't to say that when Fergie says that everything is 100% fine, and there's absolutely nothing to worry about with the Glazers, and we should all be happy with them, we should just believe that. There's plenty of other evidence to the contrary, and I'm afraid his comments on this aren't nearly enough to make me change my mind.
Anyone who believes everything Fergie tells the media and the public is being a little naive. As you say its not black and white - far from it. Fergie is certainly not going to criticise his employer - certainly not in public anyway. All of this is not to say Fergie is a liar. He's a master of disinformation when it suits him though.
Having said that I believe him about getting the general backing of the Glazers for major transfers over the last few years and indeed their backing over the Rooney affair when Gill appeared to have closed the door. Having said that, I do not believe this current team is strong enough to win the ECL and probably not the EPL either, despite the current lofty position and cannot fathom why one or two new signings weren't made. Team performance has been inconsistent at best andour poistion in the league is more down to the recent failings of Chelsea and periodically Arsenal as well. I still think we operate under wage constraints (good fiscal management one may argue) which may have prevented one or two transfers last summer, despite having had cash available, to strengthen areas of the team where we could have more depth. The latter will happen in the summer when there will be an offload of certain players for various reasons but that will be too late for this season.
Sounds to me like you are much closer to 1 than 2 so perhaps you are not as deluded as I first thought!
I sense a slight change in your general stance here, the first step in your redemption from the 'darkside'
Another winner! We are doing well today
Shame you are still negative about the squad though, I dont agree but you are entitled to your opinion.
Sounds to me like you are much closer to 1 than 2 so perhaps you are not as deluded as I first thought!
I sense a slight change in your general stance here, the first step in your redemption from the 'darkside'
My stance remains the same... that the Glazers, amongst their various sins, have put us in a position where if push came to shove we'd have limited finances for transfers, but that you can believe this without doubting SAF's excellence as a manager.
In fact, one of main the reasons push has not come to shove is SAF's excellence - he's chosen the right players, and got them playing the right way, without pissing away millions on Robbie Keane. He even chose to buy a 17 year old that we sold for £80m a few years later - the guy is walking ATM!
If we'd had some kind of Benitez clown in charge, it's more than likely that he'd have started testing the club's budget by now...
I think most seasoned observers do not believe the current squad is good enough. Midfield, particularly and full back are problem areas and despite eight goals in two matches Berbatov remains the complete footballing enigma. One really does not know what to expect from him from one game to the next. No goals in 18 ECL matches is extraordinary but that's a whole topic on its own as we well know.
This is true. The current team is ceratinly capable of great things, but they are inconsistent and have also produced football of a surprisingly and worryingly low level on several occasions this season. I struggle to rememer ever seeing United regularly panic and throw away leads like the phase we went through earlier in the season, and it's been a rare day on which all areas of the team have clicked at the same time (I think it was Saturday 27th november, off hand
).We may yet win the league but if we do it will either be because our January surge is more pronunced than ever, bringing with it a massive increase in consistency and realisation of potential, or just because all other contenders are equally shaky (which I still maintain is largely how Chelsea won it last year).
This wasn't your stance at all. Your stance was that SAF is lying and he's not spent money because the Glazers wouldn't let him. It's understandable that you'd change your stance, but let's not pretend that this new stance has been your's all along, eh?
Right, so there's money available to spend because SAF has been shrewd and largely bought sensibly, whereas if instead he'd spent recklessly we'd have less money? State the obvious much?
Breaking News: less successful managers manage teams less successfully.
Where are you going with all this? You seem to have in a few hours done a massive u-turn on what you're trying to tell us; you're saying SAF's no longer a liar because he's such a good manager that he hasn't needed to lie because push hasn't come to shove because he's such a good manager and he's had money available to spend because he hasn't spent money on Robbie Keane... erm... what?! What the feck are you talking about?
OK, I'l make it even more simple for Mr Bottom-of-the-class
You claimed people on here did not appreciate SAF as a manager.
When it was pointed out that this was bollocks, you switched effortlessly if gracelessly to claiming that the fact that SAF says everything is OK means that anybody who has a problem with the Glazers does not appreciate SAF as a manager.
My sole point in this has been that what SAF says on the matter is of little relevance - he's only ever going to say one thing whatever the reality of the situation. And that knowing this does not make you some kind of lesser fan that does not appreciate SAF as a manager.
Where have I claimed that the Glazers wouldn't let him spend money? Show me, or stop putting words in my mouth (I'm getting de ja vu saying that in this thread).
Dont really want to get into a massive discussion about our individual players as there are better threads for that but FWIW I said at the begining of the season that I thought we had a very good squad with just a slight question mark in midfield.
I also said that if Hargreaves came back (looking unlikely) or Anderson finally showed his worth (quite possible) then even that doubt would be answered.
I stand by my pre-season assesment and promising starts by Smalling and Hernandez, plus rave reveiws for Welbeck and Cleverly on loan, have given me even more confidence in the squad than I had before.
To get back on topic, it is worth reminding that we have a shitload of cash in the bank to replace those who might soon retire, and no PIK to deal with, so the season so far has massively exceeded expectations !
When i read you comment, I thought about it for a few seconds and the thought was terrifying.Can you imagine just how dreadful and experience that would have been to endure?! Arg!!!!
Imagine the wreckage and damage he would have done! In fact, its not a bad idea for a new thread ..... What if Benitez took over from SAF right now ... what actions would he take and what would he do .... OMG!!! Might start that thread just to see how it plays out!
Lot of hair splitting here. There is one guy with a machete in hand, trying to knock down anybody who disputes his point.
So anver - from my post above, which do you choose? Number1 or Number2?
Sorry for the late response. Was out of office, and was warmly pleased that you had addressed me, although I had just put in a couple of sentences after a long time.
I am not too sure about Fergie telling the whole truth
I feel he does not want to create an uproar over disclosing required funds not being available. Remember when he wanted Berba, he went hammer and tongs and got his man? He wanted Benzema bad, and bid 30m for him. But Real bid 35m. I feel he was restrained from bidding further. Else, knowing Fergie's ways he would have got his man. ( Thankfully he didnt !). Same goes with Ozil.
He has acted in a very professional and dignified manner, and has played down the real problem, not wanting to put his employers in a pickle. The type of person any employer would love to have.
Agree with all of that other than (prepare for shocked allegations of flip-flopping from the likes of Ciderman who like to try and misrepresent people's opinions)...
Benzema may well be a case of limited funds, though it's possible that SAF himself didn't think he was worth more than £30m (and how right he'd have been).
With Ozil I'd be very surprised if we didn't match Madrid's money (£12m was it?) - I believe he is the player who SAF has mentioned just didn't want to play for us or anybody else in England. Even Paddy Power can't help with that.
Personally I doubt SAF was ever interested in Ozil; it all seemed to be just tabloid talk and a big muppet frenzy; SAF's anything but a transfer muppet. Historically United always miss out on the big name players (with a few exceptions), for whatever reason, so we've learnt to nurture potential to compensate for that and we've become very good at it, I see no reason to believe that a couple more big name players not joining the club represents anything untoward going on. SAF knows what he's doing.
Who do you think was the "one that got away" this summer, Cider... Villa?
I'd have thought that we were more likely to be looking for midfield creativity (Scholes replacement) given the numebr of strikers on our books, and Ozil is certainly quality and a steal at £12m.
Christ, I'm going to end up in the transfer forum at this rate...
I'd have thought that we were more likely to be looking for midfield creativity (Scholes replacement) given the numebr of strikers on our books, and Ozil is certainly quality and a steal at £12m.
Christ, I'm going to end up in the transfer forum at this rate...
No that was David Villa. SAF said that some players don't want to leave their country, not that they don't want to come to England, hence Villa staying in Spain whilst Ozil left Germany for Madrid; Ozil had no qualms about leaving his home nation.
Who do you think was the "one that got away" this summer, Cider... Villa?
I'd have thought that we were more likely to be looking for midfield creativity (Scholes replacement) given the numebr of strikers on our books, and Ozil is certainly quality and a steal at £12m.
Christ, I'm going to end up in the transfer forum at this rate...
Yeah Villa, it had to be. SAF loves signing strikers.
Oh, yeah - forgot the bit about leaving your country, only remembered the "don’t think he ever wanted to come to England" part.
Probably was Villa then... in which case it's a lie, he was desperate to come, but we couldn't afford him.
Probably was Villa then... in which case it's a lie, he was desperate to come, but we couldn't afford him.
Oh, yeah - forgot the bit about leaving your country, only remembered the "don’t think he ever wanted to come to England" part.
Probably was Villa then... in which case it's a lie, he was desperate to come, but we couldn't afford him.
Sorry. Got that wrong. I was referring to Villa.
Odd that (if) we didn't try and move for Ozil.
Mind you I find it a bit odd that we didn't go for V der V at teh price he was going for...
Mind you I find it a bit odd that we didn't go for V der V at teh price he was going for...
SAF's plans obviously didn't include VDV or Ozil. It's hard to predict the man, but then if it were easy he wouldn't be a footballing genius.
Di Maria. Thought this ground had been covered?
Not anywhere that I hang out it hasn't.
What about the "didn't want to leave his country" thing?
Don't want to side-track this thread any more, so Ill have a search for threads about Di Maria and try and work out why on earth people think it was him.
Where is Fred?
Why? Do you think he is the one SAF tried to sign in the summer?
Agree with this, I hope Cleverly can be the player that plugs the midfield gap in our squad.
Err, haven't seen him post in this thread for a while. Are you getting angry or something?
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