ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances
- Thread starter sammsky1
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To be fair, I just googled "worlds greatest football managers" and the top result is a "top 50 managers of all time" article from The Times putting him 4th behind only Ernst Happel, Sir Matt and Rinus Michels, which ain't bad.
The next result form an established source was an Independent article "The Ten Best Managers in British Football", which put him top.
So I think most people are fully aware that SAF's actually a pretty decent manager.
Apologies if I'm getting in the way of a standard-issue Caf "everybody else is wrong, only I can see the truth" imaginary pity fest, though...
The next result form an established source was an Independent article "The Ten Best Managers in British Football", which put him top.
So I think most people are fully aware that SAF's actually a pretty decent manager.
Apologies if I'm getting in the way of a standard-issue Caf "everybody else is wrong, only I can see the truth" imaginary pity fest, though...
It is clear that the whole footballing world knows that Fergie is a genius and fans of any other club would kill to have him, it is only our own spoilt fans who repeatedly doubt him and always end up looking stupid as a result.
fred has been mentioned, but there are many on here (and other United forums) who were extremely negative about our squad this season and the usual transfer muppets have been bitching and whinning all year about 'value'
On the otherhand, I and others have maintained that Fergie knows what he is doing and that we have a very strong squad which is more than capable of competing for the top honours this year.
This is obviously the point that was being made here.
fred has been mentioned, but there are many on here (and other United forums) who were extremely negative about our squad this season and the usual transfer muppets have been bitching and whinning all year about 'value'
On the otherhand, I and others have maintained that Fergie knows what he is doing and that we have a very strong squad which is more than capable of competing for the top honours this year.
This is obviously the point that was being made here.
To be fair, I just googled "worlds greatest football managers" and the top result is a "top 50 managers of all time" article from The Times putting him 4th behind only Ernst Happel, Sir Matt and Rinus Michels, which ain't bad.
The next result form an established source was an Independent article "The Ten Best Managers in British Football", which put him top.
So I think most people are fully aware that SAF's actually a pretty decent manager.
Apologies if I'm getting in the way of a standard-issue Caf "everybody else is wrong, only I can see the truth" imaginary pity fest, though...
Gormless.
It is clear that the whole footballing world knows that Fergie is a genius and fans of any other club would kill to have him, it is only our own spoilt fans who repeatedly doubt him and always end up looking stupid as a result.
fred has been mentioned, but there are many on here (and other United forums) who were extremely negative about our squad this season and the usual transfer muppets have been bitching and whinning all year about 'value'
On the otherhand, I and others have maintained that Fergie knows what he is doing and that we have a very strong squad which is more than capable of competing for the top honours this year.
This is obviously the point that was being made here.
So you think there are many on here who would disagree with any of the following statements, or would have a few weeks ago? :
1) SAF is the best manager currently in the business.
2) SAF is one of the top 2 British Managers who ever lived.
3) SAF is one of the top 4 or 5 Managers who ever lived.
We could have a poll... granted you could claim that people had changed their minds over the last few weeks, but you'd know you were talking crap.
The point is, nobody here fails to recognise SAF as the incredible manager that he is. However, some on here are realistic enough to acknowledge that we may not be in a position to win the top trophies every season, even with SAF (Some may even have the temerity to misjudge the strength of our team at any given point).
To try and pretend the latter is the same is the former is, well, gormless (thanks for that one Cider).
They might agree to those statements, A1Dan, but if they then go against that conviction by calling the squad shit despite SAF's assurances to the contrary then they're severely lacking in trust both in the manager and in their own apparent high opinion of him.
No - that is not the point here. The point was about people questioning Fergie's decisions in the transfer market over the past couple of seasons. The constant negativity about our squad is something that annoys me massively.
Sir Alex Ferguson said:
He wasn't just addressing Rooney when he made this speech, he was addressing all those gormless United fans who after all this time still cannot trust his judgement.
Did that mention cows anywhere?
Yep, it did. Good stuff.
Yep, it did. Good stuff.
So, if somebody says that the c2004 squad of Djembas, Kleberson, Bellion etc was a bit gash and not good enough to challenge for the league, is that person severely lacking in trust both in the manager and in their own opinion of him?
There's a difference between having faith in SAF as the greatest manager who ever lived, and blindly claiming that we always have and always will have a title-winning squad with him in charge.
As it happens, it currently suits your wider "political" position to paint those who weren't or aren't sure about the current strength of our squad as some kind of mindless SAF haters / doubters, when everybody can see that's not the case. A very transparent attempt to win cheap points and smear others.
Sir Alex Ferguson said:
Do you trust our manager, A1Dan? I think not.
Do I believe every word he says? Far from it, he's always putting red herrings and misinformation out there on any topic that suits his plans. To paraphrase a great man, if he served me a plate of spag-bol, I'd have quick check under the sauce.
If you do believe every word he says, you must get some awful shocks in team selections and transfer business etc.
Do I trust him to manage the team better than anybody else could? Yes, absoultely - I defy you to find any suggestion to the contrary (rather than just continuing to try and paint a picture of people who disagree with you about our finances as people who know nothing about football and don't support the players and manager).
So you think that that impassioned speech above, his avid and clearly genuine praise of the structure of the club, is all just misinformation then?
You're such a Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime.
You're such a Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime.
SAF has always clearly had a choice between walking away, as some say he should have, or toe-ing the line. For what it's worth, I'm glad (even if for purely selfish reasons) he chose the latter, though I can understand where people who say he should have walked are coming from.
Given that he is still here, of course he's going to go along witht the party line - contrary to what some people think he's in no position to try and manage the club while sniping at the Glazers. And in some ways, as has been discussed, the ownership structure probably makes his job a bit easier. At the end of the day, it's not his job to think about the long term finances of the club, or, as he has made clear, the ticket prices etc. So there is no need for him to rock the boat.
If you think he can't lay the "impassioned" on thick at will, what about stuff like "Yous are all fecking idiots, he's a great player" only weeks before selling Veron? SAF just doesn't do either mild or unsure, I'm afraid. He was never going to come out and say "Glazers? Urm, OK, I guess, dunno really".
Anwyay, back to your original post on this:
Do you not think you've strayed a little from that question?
To help get things back on track I'll remake the following observation:
Everybody here knows that SAF is an absolutely amazing manager, and nobody would claim any different.
The above post is nonsense designed to try and make a political point about the club's finances by leading people through the steps you have gone through in your last few posts.
Transparent. Lame.
Meh. The passage of time, as always, will prove all this poisonous pessimism to be unjustified. Fred's already let himself get far too carried away with the hatred and the bitterness, it's ruined his support of our club; if you keep up, A1Dan, you'll not be far behind him; you're sinking and you're desperate, it's a sad thing to watch really. Nevermind though, eh? As Fergie says, the rest of us, "We'll carry on."
Fred may get carried away, but I'm more than capable of keeping a clear distinction between my problems with the club's owners and my support for the team and management, and what goes on on the pitch.
If I've come away from certain game this season saying "we've forgotten how to close out a match, we'll never win the league at this rate" it's got nothing to do with this thread, whether I was right or wrong.
If I've come away from certain game this season saying "we've forgotten how to close out a match, we'll never win the league at this rate" it's got nothing to do with this thread, whether I was right or wrong.
A1Dan's still cheering on the lads week in week out isn't he? Nowt wrong with his support of our club that I can see.
What Ralphness said....
Nah, yeah, perhaps it was a little premature to liken A1Dan to Fred; I apologise for that, A1Dan, you fecking minkle.
will you feck; I can't afford that shit. Sky Sports is the maximum my lowly budget will stretch to these days.Yet another telecom deal announced today...
Reds welcome airtel
Manchester United Official Web Site - Reds welcome airtel
Reds welcome airtel
Manchester United Official Web Site - Reds welcome airtel
This is frankly getting abit ridiculous .... moreso because people now print significantly even less even than they used to!!!
What next? A deal with Andrex for toilet paper roll? Persil for official washing detergent used? How about Wrigley's for SAFs chewing gum.
Anyway, anyone know how many free printed we get for this or do we actually get some £dosh too?
You're spot on and I struggle to understand why people do not get this. Most of us will have had our boss change when we have been in a job and the first thing you have to do is adjust to the new style and parameters that are placed upon you.
SAF loves his job, we know that from so many statements and actions he has taken. Even in the past year, I have heard him say many times that The club has the right manager and he is at the right club, its a perfect union. So why should HE sacrifice his happiness and worth and resign just because he might not like all the things his new bosses ask him to do.
What has been proven is just how bloody amazing our leader is. He can get you unparalleled success no matter what environment he is asked to work in: Be it a lowly Scottish mid-table team, taking on and totally gutting from top to bottom a fat and malfunctioning supertanker which has lost its way, winning leagues for fun whilst servicing a PLC company and lastly, working for a new nationality of owner whose economic principles were new to the club and had to be learnt along the way. SAF has had to adjust and change pretty much every year in his career and yet he always come out top.
SAF has 'never towed the party line' under the Glazers. No, like he has always done in the past, he has just quickly understood the needs of his bosses and stakeholders and ensured that he would deliver upon the requirements asked of him to ensure a successful partnership. We have known many a time in the past when SAF was not happy with his owners. Trust me, when SAF is pissed off with somebody, he rarely keeps it unsaid!
But one of his traits that I admire the most is his belief that 'what goes on tour stays on tour ' and so whatever the genuine relationship between him and the Glazers will certainly never be made public ... like that cretin called Benitez did at Liverpool. He may not 'like' the business principles of the Glazers, but that is neither his role in the club nor frankly is it any of his business.
SAF has simply just got on with his (enormous sized) job that he has at Old Trafford and in the process formed an effective working relationship with his bosses. And the evidence proves that its been a great success. Trophies galore in the past few years and now a new squad packed full of wonderful young talent just as some of our most celebrated sons enjoy their last hurrah.
The man is a genius, a master of diplomacy and a gentleman and all at the same time and is simply incapable of making a decision which is not in the best interest of the club. After my late father, he is my all time hero and I will never ever hear anything against him when I do, will scream, shout, post, sms, email, yes even have a real conversation proving such allegations to be baseless and incorrect.
In SAF I have always trusted, (even vs Norwich and that headed goal from Mark Robbins). May God allow him to live many many more healthy and prosperous years with us and at our helm, calling the shots, producing winning football and making me feel like king of the castle as the trophies begin to get handed out soon after the spring season starts in the UK every year.
Sammsky, is A1Dan spot on or does SAF never toe the party line? Make your mind up.
Bloody hell, at the rate we're going we'll have surpassed Bayern in the next 3-4 years.
I'm a bit confused about that too... guess it depends exactly what you count as toeing the party line.
I think sammsky has misunderstood your position - I dont think he would be agreeing with you otherwise!
I knew it looked wrong. Tow not Toe. That's your fault, A1Dan!
I don't think so... I'd agree with the vast majority of his post, and hence what I believe to be the overall point he is making. But there are some odd contradictions, such as the following two consecutive statements:
Trust me, when SAF is pissed off with somebody, he rarely keeps it unsaid!
But one of his traits that I admire the most is his belief that 'what goes on tour stays on tour ' and so whatever the genuine relationship between him and the Glazers will certainly never be made public...
The second sentence seems more in keeping with the point being made, and is certainly in keeping with what I was getting at.
I think the subtle difference is between "toeing the line" in the sense of doing it entirely against your will (maybe out of weakness and a sense of fear), and going along with a situation which may not be ideal because you think it is the best course of action over-all, given your situation.
I think Samsky and I are both agreed that he is doing the latter, so maybe "toeing the line" isn't the best phrase.
Coincidentally, given the choice of this phrase, a very good comparison can be made to what is going on in the house of commons today...
I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Tories have issued a whip (two line?) on the tuition fees, and so there may be Tory MPs who are against the rises, but will reluctantly vote for them - they will toe the line.
However, LibDems have a free vote on it. Even though they have all, prior to the election, vocally opposed the rises, and even gone as far as signing a pledge to vote against them, many, particularly those high up in the government, will quite voluntarily now go against their principles and vote for them. Moreover they have been loudly campaigning for everybody to back the changes.
I think there are strong parallels between the positions of SAF and Clegg. Both, I'm sure, are putting aside their underlying sense of what is right in order to try and further what they see as the greater good. Both are trying to be pragmatic, and think that the benefits of themselves being "in power" outweigh other issues. Both are prepared to compromise their integrity to a degree in order to do so.
In the case of SAF, it's an unpleasant situation, but he's probably doing the right thing.
In the case of Clegg, I don't think he offers enough other benefit to justify his course of action... he's no SAF!
So what you're saying is that SAF is being restricted by the Glazers and he hates them just like you do, but he's choosing to repeatedly lie to us all about it, seriously undermining the efforts of those campaigning against the Glazers (who he secretly agrees with) and give the very strong impression that he's not being restricted at all and he actually quite likes them? Convenient that, but absolutely fecking ridiculous. This is the sort of twisted crap Fred would come up with, man, get a grip.
"SAF thinks you're idiots."
"No he doesn't! He thinks we're clued up, he's just saying we're idiots because [insert stupid theory]!"
ffs
I can't believe we're even discussing this
"No he doesn't! He thinks we're clued up, he's just saying we're idiots because [insert stupid theory]!"
ffs
I can't believe we're even discussing this
As usual, you're over-exagerating my point to try and make it sounds ridiculous. But I would say that SAF is fully aware of the drawbacks of the current set-up, but is prepared to put these aside as to do otherwise is not compatible with his mroe immedite task of managing the team to the best of his abilities.
As I've said before, regarding his specific role in the club, he probably does see some benefits as well as problems, so it's no big compromise for him.
Also, there are elements of the problems with the Glazers, such as ticket prices and the general relationship with the fans which are genuinely outside of his remit, and so not hard for him to set aside.
It's not rocket science,and nor is it twisetd crap.
As I've said before, regarding his specific role in the club, he probably does see some benefits as well as problems, so it's no big compromise for him.
Also, there are elements of the problems with the Glazers, such as ticket prices and the general relationship with the fans which are genuinely outside of his remit, and so not hard for him to set aside.
It's not rocket science,and nor is it twisetd crap.
Yes it is. You're trying to make it sound reasonable and sane, but really it's just more paranoid bile that we've come to expect from you. Your say I've over-exaggerated your point to make it sound ridiculous, I've not though, I've simply got down to the fundamentals of it; and guess what? Yeah, fundamentally it's ridiculous. You're just clutching at straws in a desperate attempt to explain why the manager disagrees with you (but really agrees with you but just won't say). Can't you see how stupid it is?
I can see why you think I have contradicted myself so apologise for being unclear.
When SAF has a problem with the Glazers, Im sure he makes it very clear to them what his issues are and how he would like those issues to be resolved ... but he will keep such conversations within the confines of the boardroom and not go out spouting off in the press or behind his bosses back. That is how mature people maintain an effective and professional relationship with their superiors. For example, we only got to know of SAFs issues with the likes of Martin Edward's and Brian Kidd long aftre both had left the club and via his autobiography.
What we saw between Benitez and those baboon ex-owners at Liverpool was the direct opposite and all three are guilty for wrecking an amazing football club with values, heritage and class into a laughing stock.
Its clear that Gill and SAF have established a genuine working relationship and work together for the betterment of the club. I refuse to blame Gill for any of the financial issues that we have and am glad he is our CEO. He and SAF are pragmatists who understand the reality of their situation and so far have managed to find that delicate equilibrium that has just about made everything work. Give the guys some credit for that.
Im all for bashing the Glazers and hate the fact that they have changed our financial position, perhaps forever. But it happened and life moves on. So far it has not affected our stature. The future, as Ronaldo says "Who knows".
In short, no, I don't think SAF toes any party line, he is a committed member of staff who shares the same vision as all of his senior colleagues at the club and that can only be healthy for us into the long term.
Hang on, who is the one who started this particular conversation by claiming that those who disagree with you about the Glazers don't rate SAF as a manager?
All I'm doing is pointing out how that is ridiculous nonsense, and there is no contradiction between believing that SAF is the greatest manager who ever lived and that the Glazers are bad for United.
Fortunately, as normal, I think most on here can see that this is the case, and your lame attempts to make an issue out of nothing are just the usual desperate ranting we've come to expect.
We're going round in circles here - I've made my position quite clear, and no ammount of attempts to shoe-horn in your imaginary point will take the converstion on further.
SAF has always been restricted by his chairman, just like every other manager in world football! Remember back to when he wanted to sign Gabriel Batistuta but Edwards refused to break the wage structure and pay the going rate. There are countless examples when he has not been given exactly what he wanted. So whats the big deal now?
And even then, we hear quotes from other managers every week (like Ancelloti last week) dreaming about having the same amount of influence and power within their clubs like he does. I don't think SAF has his wings clipped like some would have us believe.
I think out hatred of the Glazer imposed debt, sometime fans are susceptible of inventing situations to make their hatred more palatable. This example is perhaps one of those.
Hang on, who is the one who started this particular conversation by claiming that those who disagree with you about the Glazers don't rate SAF as a manager?
All I'm doing is pointing out how that is ridiculous nonsense, and there is no contradiction between believing that SAF is the greatest manager who ever lived and that the Glazers are bad for United.
Fortunately, as normal, I think most on here can see that this is the case, and your lame attempts to make an issue out of nothing are just the usual desperate ranting we've come to expect.
We're going round in circles here - I've made my position quite clear, and no ammount of attempts to shoe-horn in your imaginary point will take the converstion on further.
That was quite obviously a tongue in cheek remark. Moving on....
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