Is anyone surprised? Fergie played him at every possible opportunity last season without fail, he rarely ever rested him, and he was 32 years old, I'm certainly not shocked that he's now completely burnt out.
Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?
- Thread starter Carl
- Start date
I am sure you were signing that from the terraces in 2008 when he started and we won the double
.More importantly though by that definition over half of Barca's team is a bunch of P&$$!3$... yet they manage to win quite a few trophies.
Thanks
!!And so it begins. It was inevitable that this kind of backlash would happen once the poor form really hit home.
One thing he really needed was a smooth re-introduction back into the team after the injury. With Cleverley's poor form and the injury to Jones we've had to thrust him and Fletcher in and as much as I applaud Fletcher's efforts given the circumstances I am largely unimpressed and uninspired by two players wanting to do exactly the same thing.
I'm kind of looking forward to Fellaini getting a clean break and starting again. Obviously he'll be shit too, but you have to hope.
One thing he really needed was a smooth re-introduction back into the team after the injury. With Cleverley's poor form and the injury to Jones we've had to thrust him and Fletcher in and as much as I applaud Fletcher's efforts given the circumstances I am largely unimpressed and uninspired by two players wanting to do exactly the same thing.
I'm kind of looking forward to Fellaini getting a clean break and starting again. Obviously he'll be shit too, but you have to hope.
One of the greatest central midfielders ever to play for Manchester United apparently.
I am sure you were signing that from the terraces in 2008 when he started and we won the double
More importantly though by that definition over half of Barca's team is a bunch of P&$$!3$... yet they manage to win quite a few trophies.
What definition? Barcelona's players aren't scared to pass and move and create space.
You dont think our lack of movement and the preference of our attackers to crowd the box rather than come short and receive passes play a huge role in how effective Carrick is? He isnt the most mobile of midfielders, that's a big weakness and affects how well he can pass and move but our attackers and our style in general never helps him.
This is the thing for me, for us to get the best out of him we need to play well, he's never going to make others around him play better. Last season he stepped up in spite of our useless wingers and was very dependable, this season however he's reverted to type and isn't showing any confidence in his ability at all. He's a passenger right now and we don't need those.
We have to play a weekly blame game.
No one seems to be able to say there is a collective issue, which most likely stems from the lack of style imposed by our manager at the moment.
I always re-watch games and usually watch our midfielders close the second time and I can count 5 or 6 occasions where Hernandez and Welbeck either BOTH came short when he was clearly looking for a pass or BOTH darted towards the penalty area when he was looking for a run. It's just confidence and lack of communication along with what appears to be a clash of styles.
Carrick - Rooney - RVP was the most common trio of passing combos in the PL last season. It yielded the most goals too.
He could help us play well if we actually do something as simple as move towards the man with the ball and run away from markers etc. Not just him, it'd elevate the performance of players like Kagawa etc to an entirely new level, the team as a whole. We're so static its beyond ridiculous. With this style, we either force our CMs to just spray it out wide to unmarked wingers as others are already in the box waiting for a cross or force them to try a difficult pass. When someone like Carrick is confident, like last season, he chooses the 2nd option and even pulls it off. When his confidence is shot as it is now, he picks the safer option. Its absolutely normal.
Regarding the passenger bit, its our style that makes him one. We either buy someone like of Toure's style and quality who drives with the ball or change how we play. I know which is cheaper and makes more sense.
Really, its time we stopped relying on individual quality and moments of brilliance, we're a football team.
I get that but if you give Carrick 10 yards space he just looks at it and passes it square, it's ridiculous.
That is a two way street, and needs two players involved... Last year we had Rooney and RvP to help him.
Like I said Carrick is coming back from injury but he needs someone to make some runs for him to really do much. Not that you see it that way... but the stats and our record over his career seem to support that, but do not let those facts get in the way of your lovely narrative
.Can't say I disagree with that, but why do you suppose that is? I was looking to Carrick last night to make things happen but he didn't seem interested, more so after Kagawa was subbed off.
He's never going to be a midfielder that runs at players with the ball or even drive into space full hilt. Its not his style, it has nothing to do with him being a coward, lacking balls or anything of that sort.
That is a two way street, and needs two players involved... Last year we had Rooney and RvP to help him.
Like I said Carrick is coming back from injury but he needs someone to make some runs for him to really do much. Not that you see it that way... but the stats and our record over his career seem to support that, but do not let those facts get in the way of your lovely narrative
Exactly, yesterday passes were bouncing straight off Hernandez/Welbeck, when we had carrick, fletch and kagawa all central and we gave them the ball they got control and then created some chances. When we went with Welbeck there and it was more of a 442 we struggled, we don't have enough good players for it at the moment. That's why I couldn't understand Kagawa's sub, certainly when it wasn't for a cm.
Carrick/Fletch weren't at their best yesterday, but for me we again got the team wrong, and certainly the set up within that. And they weren't the only ones to play poorly. Carrick at least made a number of tackles. Too often though there was not enough options for the defenders, with the attacking players to high/close to each other, which let them mark our midfielders and led to our defenders having to lump it. Carrick/Fletch could have done more but too often they were bypassed and they really needed more short options who could actually do something. Welbeck was very casual on the ball and doesn't work well in that role from a creative role and Hernandez was having a poor game goal aside and is even worse when he has to come short.
He played about an average of 45 games a season under Fergie which isn't a collosal amount. Think he's going through a massive blow in terms of confidence like most of the team.
He's not burnt out though.
He's hiding through games not even trying to do the right thing. If he was mishitting passes, trying too hard, or if his game just looked tired and jaded, I could understand the idea that he's tired or burnt out.
This isn't what's happening though. He picks up the ball, takes a few touches then plays the easiest possible pass he can see. THen he sort of lingers in a position which makes it awkward for anyone to pass it to him. He drifts through one game after another doing this. He literally has no backbone to him at all.
What he needs is someone to give him a fecking bollocking and tell him to man up, and if he's already had that he should be out the door, or at the very least sitting himself on the bench. If he hasn't already had that then you have to ask serious questions about Moyes, because he's neither done that nor dropped him. So even going by the theory that he is tired, there is still nothing being done to address it.
I don't understand it. When you're that low on confidence, the last person being selected should be someone who the rest of the team has to carry around.
LOL... what passes are you seeing that no one else is? He passes sideways because no one up front moves to get a ball to.
And if he is not playing please tell me who on our bench should play in front of him
!!The movement around his is crap and his is as bad as anyone. If nothing is on you've got to be able /willing to run with the ball a little bit. 5 yards is enough to change the angle. Taking a touch, looking around while standing still and then passing it to Fletcher is getting us nowhere.
LOL... what passes are you seeing that no one else is? He passes sideways because no one up front moves to get a ball to.
And if he is not playing please tell me who on our bench should play in front of him
He had Kagawa, Januzaj, Welbeck and Hernandez in front of him last night. You put four of the best players in the league in terms of movement in the team and then blame THEM when Michael Carrick wont even try to pass them the ball? Hernandez made about 50,000 really good runs last night alone. Januzaj was practically in space and asking for a pass for the entire 90 minutes. What game did you watch?
I just said this, but when Carrick was injured, we played Jones and Cleverley as a midfield...a poor partnership, and yet one that was able to function and allow us to win 6 games in a row whilst playing quite well. Since Carrick's come back we've lost something like 7 out of 8...must be everyone except Carrick's fault that this has happened. He is in no way culpable at all.
Jesus fecking christ, how can ANYONE watch Carrick's performances at the moment and come to the conclusion that other players are forcing him to play badly?
Michael Carrick has always been like this when the team is playing poorly and confidence is low. He's the opposite of a leader - he will play well when the team is playing well.
Anoyne remember that moment when he picked up the ball on the edge of the area, and the three players ahead of him all ran to open up space, and he got scared, waited too long, then basically deliberately passed the ball off for a goal kick?
Was that because no one ahead of him moved, or did they move too much?
If Carrick's performances are the fault of other players, I think they need clarity on what it is they're supposed to do. They don't make a run, he doesn't pass them the ball. They do make a run, he doesn't pass them the ball. Are they running or standing at slightly the wrong angles? Should every single player follow Carrick around in a compact circle so he always has a wealth of really easy passing options in whichever direction he turns?
Was that because no one ahead of him moved, or did they move too much?
If Carrick's performances are the fault of other players, I think they need clarity on what it is they're supposed to do. They don't make a run, he doesn't pass them the ball. They do make a run, he doesn't pass them the ball. Are they running or standing at slightly the wrong angles? Should every single player follow Carrick around in a compact circle so he always has a wealth of really easy passing options in whichever direction he turns?
The one where Welbeck and Hernandez both ran to the penalty spot when he clearly opened his body for a pass to the right where there was a huge gap?
He definitely should've shot...but the front two last night made both Carrick and Fletcher look poor in their passing.
It's not even driving forward, he can amble forward a couple yards easily surely? If there's space, move into it.
He is a confidence player no question. Not much use at this moment in time. That is why I do not see him as an international class player. High pressure tournament football with a team like England is not a good place for him. He has never shown his best form in an England shirt anyway.
He wouldn't charge into it - but the Carrick of last season would certainly use the space to give himself a better angle for a pass. Or he would play that quick sideways pass - actually move into a new bit of space further up the pitch, and then pick an attacking pass into the feet of a striker/winger
At the moment he isn't using any space he's afforded, and just passes then stands around like an idiot - at most, he might move a yard or two... if he can be arsed.
The bigger problem that no one else seems to want to say is both he and Fletcher want to do the same thing. You can't have two static midfielders in a midfield two. Fletcher is no longer the high energy presser and Carrick has and never will be that.
If anything 2014 has just highlighted the need for everything we need to look out for in the market (most prominently attacking midfield and central midfield). Great start with Mata, I assume the rest will be sorted in the summer.
If anything 2014 has just highlighted the need for everything we need to look out for in the market (most prominently attacking midfield and central midfield). Great start with Mata, I assume the rest will be sorted in the summer.
Ahh. Attack the space
Seriously though, I'm not denying he could do better. My point is that the criticism is way over the top and is in line with asking him to do something he never does.
Tell me what justification is there for all 4 of the other attackers to crowd the box there waiting for a cross rather than atleast 1 of them to drop deep and receive a pass.
referring to the gif here.
Fletch is open on his left, the other 4 attackers are inside the box waiting for a cross. Its been moulded into them that its what they should do. Why isnt one of them coming short in that gif? Regardless of whether he moves 4 yards or no, no other pass is on as no one's bothering to receive a pass by coming deep. They're waiting for the inevitable United cross.
Ahh. Attack the space
Seriously though, I'm not denying he could do better. My point is that the criticism is way over the top and is in line with asking him to do something he never does.
Tell me what justification is there for all 4 of the other attackers to crowd the box there waiting for a cross rather than atleast 1 of them to drop deep and receive a pass.
referring to the gif here.
Fletch is open on his left, the other 4 attackers are inside the box waiting for a cross. Its been moulded into them that its what they should do. Why isnt one of them coming short in that gif? Regardless of whether he moves 4 yards or no, no other pass is on as no one's bothering to receive a pass by coming deep. They're waiting for the inevitable United cross.
It was 95th minute and 21st second of a game we were 2-1 down in? Pump it into the box and see what happens time if ever I've seen it.
Oh, I'm not refering to a gif - I'm refering to his general play.
Wrong. Ferguson selected him as captain in his final game in charge. He was an inspirational figure last season, driving the team on, salvaging results and victories. Remember the 4-3 against Newcastle last season? Moyes would not be capable of inspiring his team or Carrick to victory in such a fashion in 100 years. The players don't have faith in him. Ferguson overplayed Carrick, but Carrick believed in Ferguson and vice versa. It was not a problem. Moyes plays Carrick injured, aggravates the injury, brings him back again too soon, swaps his midfield partner with each match, and plays unimaginative and cowardly tactics in which the team is expected to simply soak up pressure hold on to an away goals victory against Sunderland. Horrendous. Who can blame senior figures like Carrick, Evra, and Vidić for under-performing when they are being coached by a charlatan like Moyes?
Fletch did precisely that then. Why the complains about Carrick not running 2 yards and passing short to a striker etc then when all we wanted was a hopeful cross? That's precisely what happened albeit from Fletch.
He's shot on confidence, like every other player in the squad bar Januzaj. The only time Carrick would look to run with ball into space would be if the other midfielder is covering behind and he's on form and confident. He isn't remotely on that confidence or form level atm.
What would help is players making themselves available for simpler passes thus enabling us to function even when not in great form individually.
I'm talking about his play in general, even in that gif off the throw he could have opened his body and moved the ball forward before picking a pass.
Yes he could and would have had one of our 4 attackers been sensible enough to drop outside the box and provide him an outlet. Just look at them, starting at fletch waiting for the cross to come in.
The team was terrible... quit making it out like it is all Carrick...
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...hasises-manchester-uniteds-need-to-strengthen
Carrick's performance may have been an improvement on his recent outings. While the statistics do not look terrible, they only tell part of the story. Carrick made 72 passes with an 89 percent pass completion rate. (This is considerably less than the percentage he was making at peak levels last season, when he hit the 100 mark fairly regularly.)
Darren Fletcher saw slightly more of the ball managing, 75 passes with an 85 percent pass completion rate. Of those passes, WhoScored.com considers only three of Carrick's to be "key" and none of Fletcher's.
Those stats correlate with the match I saw, Fletcher was much worse than Carrick, he also got caught on the ball in very dangerous areas a few times too. Carrick is well below the level he was at last season though, and I think part of it is down to us pressing more, I don't think it suits him at all. I'd be interested to see his interception stats for this season, I bet they're down on his usual numbers.
Out for a month according to The Times. He's had three great games and a few good ones, but it's overall been a poor season for him. He looked pretty good against Chelsea (was great at winning the ball back) and made some excellent passes, but yesterday's performance was poor. That sums up his season. You think he's back to his best, but then he ends up having a poor game after all the optimism.
Fellaini is back soon, isn't he? This is a big chance for him.
Fellaini is back soon, isn't he? This is a big chance for him.
Carrick always takes ages to get into a season rhythm, and hasn't been injured in years. Maybe he is having another slow start, like after pre season?
All this bollocks about him being a slow starter is just not good enough. He epitomises the situation were in at the moment IMO: he has no balls.
It was probably very optimistic of is to assume he'd replicate last season's form again this season.
Still, after carrying midfield on his back for this long we shouldn't be too harsh on one poor season.
Still, after carrying midfield on his back for this long we shouldn't be too harsh on one poor season.
Against Sunderland I first noticed how quiet he's been all season. I'm pretty sure 99% of his passes were simple 5-7 yard passes. No creativity at all behind them. I know he was keeping possession and such, but he was always forcing Fletcher to attempt to make the midfield/defence splitting pass. He always shied away at it and just preferred to keep possession rather than egg the team on to attack with an advancing pass.
I know he isn't the Carrick of last year, but yeah it was quite shocking at how "passenger" like he was against Sunderland. Made a few tackles I believe which is just expected from him - but he's really gone back into his shell so to speak. He really does need a more creative player next to him. Fletcher, who probably had his worst came since his return, isn't the type to make a delicious pass so we were fecked anyway.
I know he isn't the Carrick of last year, but yeah it was quite shocking at how "passenger" like he was against Sunderland. Made a few tackles I believe which is just expected from him - but he's really gone back into his shell so to speak. He really does need a more creative player next to him. Fletcher, who probably had his worst came since his return, isn't the type to make a delicious pass so we were fecked anyway.