Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?

Specualtion. Considering Anderson and Cleverley showed that with Rooney and Welbeck in front of them they could amass a large amount of goals. Even if the myth that was debunked that we were more open that year (conceded less goals than the following season with Carrick starting every game).


It is speculation, but a reasonable one. He was probably about as good as Van Persie overall, and the only player we have who is actually consistently aware of the runners around him. Cleverley and Anderson are not good for this at all. When those two were paired together during 11/12, they were playing in a team whereby every single player was at the absolute height of their game. It was absolutely freakish, and they've been paired together since with nothing like the same success. Nevertheless, during that period our midfield was cut open a lot due to not having a player like Carrick to maintain structure. Again, this is a far more important job than having someone running around making tackles.

I'm not sure which seasons you're comparing there, but if you mean we conceded more last season than 11/12 (I don't if this is true - I'm just assuming this is what you mean), then the start of the season must be taken into account here, with Carrick playing in defence, and with our entire defence playing like a load of maniacs. It was only when Carrick was paired with Cleverley that the team became less of a mess.

One further thing to consider...just how many players could pair with an aging Scholes and keep shape in midfield? It's an amazing effort by Carrick to make that work - look at Juventus and Italy by comparison who have gone with a midfield 3 in recent times to accommodate Pirlo.


Not sure I am following the Hargreaves line of thinking. He at times made even a combination with Anderson viable because he had the energy and positional sense to play very close to players and as a ball winner. Much like Fletcher did at his peak.

England don't really have a player like Fletcher though do they? It's my original point. I think Parker was the last time they played a genuine ball winner. I don't think there is even another one in England near the first team at the moment. At a time like that when Carrick is coming off for Lampard it's probably a better idea to bring on a defensive midfield substitute to break up play.

Anyway - yeah we've discussed this at length. My point was that England have no tight ball winner much like we didn't have two years ago to close out games didn't really have last year and had some trouble closing out games and getting mauled on the counter. There just isn't that direct 'go to the ball' player in our midfield. Cleverley is desperately trying it right now but he's not big or strong enough.

I edited this in; Hargreaves and Anderson did the job at times, but it lacked composure and guile for periods of games (though our team was so good that year that it didn't really matter). It's good in theory to have a player that presses but it needs to be done in view of balance. This is why Carrick was first choice and ended up pairing with Scholes when it mattered; it's more important to have a player that is able to keep defensive shape whilst also having ability on the ball, because you get a greater defensive benefit with a player who offers a more rounded contribution.

You're right - England don't have such a player, but if they did, say, have that Owen Hargreaves, it'd make for an inferior midfield in comparison to what could potentially be fielded. Carrick/Wilshere/Rooney is pretty much perfect in theory, so chucking someone like Hargreaves in for Carrick would make it less complete in terms of what it offers.

This is why tonight's substitution was so mental. Carrick is a fantastic defensively minded midfielder - one of the best. You absolutely do not substitute a player like that when you're a goal up! It is incredible that someone capable of making that sort of decision is managing any international football team.

Anyway, I'm probably making more of a point than is necessary to argue here, but I remember last time we had this discussion I was banging my head against the wall trying to put across the importance of someone like Carrick, and how someone like that is pretty much integral for a team wanting to have a midfield that ticks every box. ;) Ideally, you'd want one of the other midfielders to be the complete package, but midfielders like that are few and far between, and you are more often left with a player offering significantly more of one side of the game than the other. It's unwise in that situation to sacrifice more important attributes like creativity and ball retention in favour of 'ball winning', which is what you would run the risk of doing by fitting a Hargreaves type into the England or United midfields. Further, putting a ball winner in Carrick's position and expecting him to be rigorous in tracking runners and narrowing angles is a big ask and, again, requires a pretty amazing player. Even more so if the team don't really press as a unit.

*All this being said, this is not to try and be overly rigid. An unbalanced team on paper can look more balanced than any other team if the players gel correctly, but the teams discussed here - England and United - have looked distinctly 'ungelled' in recent times. That 11/12 one at the start of the season worked for example, like I say, because every single player looked like they were born to play with one another. Tactical failings on paper are less significant if player performance compensates for that.
 
Heh, we both deviated off the point a little. But you raise some good ones. I am not going to go on and on about it because my stance is pretty clear on the matter. I wouldn't include a ball winner at the expense of Carrick in both the England setup and the United one. But I'd certainly put a ball winner in there beside him and I reckon he'd flourish. Especially with the reading of the play making interceptions.
 
I thought Carrick added so much stability to that England midfield. The fact that he was subbed off at all was rather incredulous, that it was for Lampard made it more so. Truly baffling. The difference in the way England played after he came off was telling.
 
Complete idiocy to remove Carrick when you're trying to hold on to a lead. Another stupid thing England done was completely go back to a negative way of playing in the last 15 minutes and refusing to keep passing the ball, by giving the ball to the opposition you're giving them opportunities to score... retards.
 
Thought he played well, particuulary first half. England look a better side with him as he will provide a constant out ball for the defenders and uses the ball well. Plus he will sit more allowing gerrard to push forward which is what you want as gerrard is a his best influencing up the pitch.

Still really hoping we try carrick, gerrard an wilshere in the middle. I think that team will give us the best way of controlling a game and with wilshere and gerrard there is plenty of creativity as well.
 
Taking him off for Lampard at 1-0 up is absolutely embarrassing. Lampard gave the ball away almost instantly and had to take a cynical booking on the chin. Mindless substitution.
 
Complete idiocy to remove Carrick when you're trying to hold on to a lead. Another stupid thing England done was completely go back to a negative way of playing in the last 15 minutes and refusing to keep passing the ball, by giving the ball to the opposition you're giving them opportunities to score... retards.

That's what happens when you take off the best passer and the person who helped the team the most to keep possession. It's no co-incidence that those things happened when Carrick came off. The things he does, because they aren't hollywood and flashy and don't involve selfish forward runs are underappreciated for England. It's quite frustrating.
 
I think Gerrard is done, Wilshere needs to kick on now. If he had improved as he was meant to Gerrard would be GLUED to the bench. I don't now why Lampard is still in the squad, I would rather a younger more promising player than him. He doesn't do much anymore.
.
 
I think Gerrard is done, Wilshere needs to kick on now. If he had improved as he was meant to Gerrard would be GLUED to the bench. I don't now why Lampard is still in the squad, I would rather a younger more promising player than him. He doesn't do much anymore.
.

I still think Gerrard has a big role to play for England - and in fact he generally plays a lot better for England than he does for Liverpool these days. He was very good in these last two games - especially against Poland where he didn't have Lampard to handicap him. (I quite like Lampard, but I don't think he's half the player he used to be anymore - he's still good for a goal, but his all round play isn't a patch on Lampard of old).
 
I think Gerrard is done, Wilshere needs to kick on now. If he had improved as he was meant to Gerrard would be GLUED to the bench. I don't now why Lampard is still in the squad, I would rather a younger more promising player than him. He doesn't do much anymore.
.
Injury allowing Gerrard will captain this England side to the next WC and will play regardless of other players form or his own, its one of life's certainties almost on a par with death. The daft thing about the Lampard situation is if your going to play him then Gerrard should make way, both would benefit the team playing more advanced with a holding player behind, sadly this looks like it won't happen and injury aside we will end up with them pair partnering a proven failed midfield. Wilshire looks just as good as either and creates more energy than both put together, he does lack experience but if his heads right then why not, the Lamperrard combination has nothing but failure and loss as a memory so why inflict the same mentality on our younger generation.
Be brave Woy it's worked a charm with Tiwnsend
 
I still think Gerrard has a big role to play for England - and in fact he generally plays a lot better for England than he does for Liverpool these days. He was very good in these last two games - especially against Poland where he didn't have Lampard to handicap him. (I quite like Lampard, but I don't think he's half the player he used to be anymore - he's still good for a goal, but his all round play isn't a patch on Lampard of old).

At this tournament for sure. Influential player and all that but he is absolutely garbage in that deeper midfield role.
 
I think Gerrard is done, Wilshere needs to kick on now. If he had improved as he was meant to Gerrard would be GLUED to the bench. I don't now why Lampard is still in the squad, I would rather a younger more promising player than him. He doesn't do much anymore.
.

It's infuriating that Wilshere's form has stalled this season. His performances for England last season were on the verge of putting him in the England midfield permanently, and now his step backwards has allowed Hodgson to start using Gerrard and Lampard again. Which means that they'll almost certainly be playing a lot in Rio, whereas in an ideal world Wilshere would have forced Gerrard out by now, and we'd be taking him and Carrick to Rio as our first choice central partnership.
 
Gerrard being forced out anytime soon is wishful thinking. I reckon he's the 2nd name on the team sheet after Rooney and will be until Brazil. His all-action performances for England will keep catching the eye and we're not going to try and switch to a patient possession based game anytime soon, so Gerrard is still the man for that job.
 
I think Gerrard is done, Wilshere needs to kick on now. If he had improved as he was meant to Gerrard would be GLUED to the bench. I don't now why Lampard is still in the squad, I would rather a younger more promising player than him. He doesn't do much anymore.
.

Unusual timing. Gerrard did well last night IMO.
 
Unusual timing. Gerrard did well last night IMO.


He did, but he for me is not a player I would like to see in there against a top team, he has not aged well imo. I'm saying that based on the last 12-18 months rather than one particular match. If we have Carrick in there (who should start) I would prefer a more mobile all action midfielder beside him.
 
It's infuriating that Wilshere's form has stalled this season. His performances for England last season were on the verge of putting him in the England midfield permanently, and now his step backwards has allowed Hodgson to start using Gerrard and Lampard again. Which means that they'll almost certainly be playing a lot in Rio, whereas in an ideal world Wilshere would have forced Gerrard out by now, and we'd be taking him and Carrick to Rio as our first choice central partnership.


Exactly what I was thinking, unfortunately injuries have played their part but he seems to have stalled despite this.
 
I still think Gerrard has a big role to play for England - and in fact he generally plays a lot better for England than he does for Liverpool these days. He was very good in these last two games - especially against Poland where he didn't have Lampard to handicap him. (I quite like Lampard, but I don't think he's half the player he used to be anymore - he's still good for a goal, but his all round play isn't a patch on Lampard of old).


They are both past it for me. They won't win us the world cup I would rather see a younger promising player in there. Lamaprd scores less and now does less they have both aged poorly, makes you appreciate Scholes game even more. I listened to Carragher's discussion with Neville about who was the best of the three and he used points a 14 year old would. It should be Wilshere and Carrick in there.
 
Gerrard isn't done, but against a top side we can't afford immobile midfielders. Ideally an in form Wilshere and a younger faster more technical version of Carrick would be perfect, but it isn't going to happen.
 
Ideally an in form Wilshere and a younger faster more technical version of Carrick would be perfect, but it isn't going to happen.

'More technical' than Carrick in what way? Jesus, let's not start wishing for an improvement on one of the small handful of English players who actually measures up to international standards. An in-form Wilshere-Carrick partnership would be more than good enough for a team at England's overall level, and certainly more than 'technical' enough.
 
Gerrard isn't done, but against a top side we can't afford immobile midfielders. Ideally an in form Wilshere and a younger faster more technical version of Carrick would be perfect, but it isn't going to happen.


Really? What does he still do at a high quality level? He is a decent deep playmaker and that's about it. He hasn't got the passing consistency of the great playmakers and tactically is decent, he gives the ball away far too often. He is good enough for England and Liverpool but he is not good enough for a the top 4 now or a top International side.
 
Really? What does he still do at a high quality level? He is a decent deep playmaker and that's about it. He hasn't got the passing consistency of the great playmakers and tactically is decent, he gives the ball away far too often. He is good enough for England and Liverpool but he is not good enough for a the top 4 now or a top International side.


For me done is a complete liability - we're talking Gary Neville v West Brom, at the moment he still has something to offer off the bench but the reason I don't rate him in midfield is not because he's done but because he's always had that awful trait the modern english midfielder has which is laziness in terms of their movement off the ball... he doesn't move enough in front of the defence to make easy passing options, despite being lauded for his stamina.
 
'More technical' than Carrick in what way? Jesus, let's not start wishing for an improvement on one of the small handful of English players who actually measures up to international standards. An in-form Wilshere-Carrick partnership would be more than good enough for a team at England's overall level, and certainly more than 'technical' enough.


It's a solid enough partnership, whether it is a world-cup winning partnership... doubt it but its a darn sight better than anything else we have right now and more than competitive enough. By technical I mean ability to run with the ball, comfortable in tight spaces, doesn't always pass back under pressure, can turn and keep the game moving forward. Compare Busquets to Carrick and there is a technical gulf in terms of ball-manipulation. In terms of passing range, Carrick is international quality and with regards to holding a midfield, screening through balls, he's top quality.. but his ability to keep possession is hampered by this lack of skill on the ball, its only due to the lack of competition that he's seen as this superstar DM whose a possession maestro.
 
1yjc.png


Could easily make the compilation now, but I need to cut clips from the Wigan (second half), Chelsea, Shakhtar, West Brom (second half) games.

I might make all my clips available for you lot to download at the end of the season.
 
1yjc.png


Could easily make the compilation now, but I need to cut clips from the Wigan (second half), Chelsea, Shakhtar, West Brom (second half) games.

I might make all my clips available for you lot to download at the end of the season.

Wow! You made all those clips from match videos? Fantastic. You do that for other players or for Carrick only?
 
Wow! You made all those clips from match videos? Fantastic. You do that for other players or for Carrick only?

Yeah, I'm doing it for all our players:

grly.png


This is what I have for Rooney so far, for example:

h53m.png


I've also got every Bayern Munich match stored on my computer. I'll be doing the same thing... Cut individual clips and make compilations. It's worth it.
 
Heh, we both deviated off the point a little. But you raise some good ones. I am not going to go on and on about it because my stance is pretty clear on the matter. I wouldn't include a ball winner at the expense of Carrick in both the England setup and the United one. But I'd certainly put a ball winner in there beside him and I reckon he'd flourish. Especially with the reading of the play making interceptions.


Sorry, I've only just seen this. The point in that case is that if you don't put a ball winner in for Carrick (for England, say), you then run the risk of disrupting a midfield's ability to retain possession if you replace someone like Wilshere instead (which is what you would be doing by default if you were to change that ideal Wilshere/Carrick midfield). After all, there are very few players in the world who have both of these sides of the game, and Carrick would not compensate for what would be lost if he were to be pushed further forward and tasked with being creative/authoritative. No matter what anyone says, he is not in the class of a Busquets, Xavi, etc in possession, and pushing Carrick further forward when he's shown repeatedly that he is better deeper is unwise. Again, that balance is disrupted; he's a deep lying midfielder because his main facet is his defensive positioning, and you risk losing his best attribute whilst putting emphasis on things he's not as good at if you push him further forward. Even if the players work more in tandem there is a risk of this.

What does stand is that whoever is next to (or often in front of) Carrick should be excellent at pressing. I definitely agree with that. Cleverley, Fellaini, new creative/Paul Scholes-esque midfielder for United, Wilshere for England...whoever. I find it amazing that this isn't being repeatedly drilled into every team around at the moment. It makes it so much more difficult playing against a team like that, and both United and England have got just the player to make that work in Carrick (there is a danger when employing a pressing game of leaving gaps if the players aren't defensively aware enough to hold it together).
 
He was completely gutless. Left Fellaini in midfield on his own because he didn't want to contest it, at home to Southampton.
 
Thank God for Carrick, probably only player in our team that shows his brilliance in every single game, even when he has game off, you can notice his class.
 
Honestly if he gets injured we are so screwed. Spent 27m on a midfielder and still feel we're more reliant on him that ever atm.
 
Thought he looked very good again. Sunderland game turning point maybe.

Eh? He was sub-par again. He's probably our most important player. When he's mediocre like this the whole team suffers. But in many seasons he has been a slow starter. He often gets going around Xmas. If he did get injured I don't want to think about it.