Amazingly, I did read the whole one line of that post. The point completely still stands: Carrick was good before, although he has made a step up, and he was underrated by a lot of people because he didn't pull off big showy attacking stunts like Gerrard, or go throwing himself around clattering and tackling like some idiots thought a 'real' DM should. If you think that's 'utter nonsense' then you vastly overrate the shite that the Sun-reading ABU masses regularly came out with about Carrick.
Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?
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Amazingly, I did read the whole one line of that post. The point completely still stands: Carrick was good before, although he has made a step up, and he was underrated by a lot of people because he didn't pull off big showy attacking stunts like Gerrard, or go throwing himself around clattering and tackling like some idiots thought a 'real' DM should. If you think that's 'utter nonsense' then you vastly overrate the shite that the Sun-reading ABU masses regularly came out with about Carrick.
He outright said that those who didn't like carrick didn't like him because he's not a 'bite yer legs' player. I know that's utter nonsense because I was one who didn't rate Carrick through his lean years and it wasn't because he didn't go kicking people. If he had've said 'some people' then it would have been a perfectly true statement but he didn't so it and your follow up points are pure shite.
Since 2009?.. Because back then he was playing with a Fletcher or Hargreaves type player who did most of the tough tackling and play shepherding. Until Fletch's illness this was also the case. It was only this year when his defensive stats dropped dramatically and some started to have genuine concern that he could play the attacking game and hold the anchor of midfield all by himself with no support. It was kind of like watching him paired with a young Anderson. His attacking game has no blight against it at all but this season has shown that he certainly needs a bit of support in there from time to time.
'Aside from those' does not indicate everyone. Anyway, we're now arguing over the wording of Stickles post rather than Carrick, so it might be best to just stop.
We all think he was great 'aside from those who' didn't because they know nothing of football is essentially what he said.
I haven't watched the vid yet, but it looks like it might be interesting:
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11667/8831172?
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11667/8831172?
Fairly basic stuff, but effective at the same time and you do notice him doing what he showcased there on matchdays.
Got to say though, I automatically cringe at videos like that. I have no problem with the notion of somebody at the top of their field giving tips or making tutorials, but for some reason I can't help but have an automatic dislike for them. Although that was no where near as bad as most and I had less problem with this one than most; probably because it wasn't showboating skills or flicks that you would barely see in a match, it was fundamentals for a midfielder that he makes use of.
Got to say though, I automatically cringe at videos like that. I have no problem with the notion of somebody at the top of their field giving tips or making tutorials, but for some reason I can't help but have an automatic dislike for them. Although that was no where near as bad as most and I had less problem with this one than most; probably because it wasn't showboating skills or flicks that you would barely see in a match, it was fundamentals for a midfielder that he makes use of.
'And we're moving forward, which is... what we want to be doing.'
Sure Michael, we all know sideways is your direction of choice, amirite?
'And we're moving forward, which is... what we want to be doing.'
Sure Michael, we all know sideways is your direction of choice, amirite?
Crab MkII
http://www.touchlinetalk.com/arsenal-knocked-back-in-bid-for-england-midfielder/58318/?
People will write crap just to have it published won't they?!!
We are short of quality, experienced midfielders as it is now... we will entertain such a proposal? Easier to get Xavi than us selling Carrick at this point in time.
People will write crap just to have it published won't they?!!
We are short of quality, experienced midfielders as it is now... we will entertain such a proposal? Easier to get Xavi than us selling Carrick at this point in time.
An even longer Carrick season comp, again linked to me by Russell Wilson in the Newbies:
32 today, he is past it. Sell the feck.
He'll do some Giggs style yoga and play for another 10 years, hence United not buying a midfielder this summer.
He never replies to me on twitter
Would it be the worst thing in the world if we were to free him up in his role and take away the defensive one on one tackling side of his game and utilize his play reading/interceptions coupled with his passing range and threat going forward?
Had a pretty good discussion with a couple of mates of mine staunchly from the 'Carrick is absolutely rubbish, how is he even in your team' camp (of course not United supporters) and I was trying to emphasize that the season he had last year was some of the best link/attacking play that we've seen from him in his career. When he's on for a medium range sharp pass he'll execute 9/10 and last year it was pivotal in the fact that we were releasing RVP in good positions and the midfielders playing further forward would see much cleaner ball in much more dangerous positions. (Much like if Kagawa was to play in behind we'd probably see more of the same).
Reading some things on the caf especially with Fabregas, of course he'd be an amazing signing but it worries me a little that as Carrick is getting older we're not looking to give him a bit of support and reinforcement for him to keep this form and style for the coming season. He'd be the absolutely perfect midfielder if he was to support someone who was closing and assaulting in the middle of the park with his reading of play to basically be on hand to cut off a critical pass and recycle possession or to receive a tackled ball and play a fast sharp pass to transition on the counter (or an attacking move).
I love him to bits but he was getting isolated and annihilated while being left one on one in midfield last season. Cleverley playing the type of role he does would be fantastic if he had a bit more power in his game. At the moment, to me that is our only really strong combination in the middle of the park and if Carrick himself goes down.. Yikes.
This is the sort of thing I am talking about when players get on the ball and we were hit on the counter through the middle of the park last year, a lot of the time Carrick was isolated and when he doesn't try to challenge for the ball it caused a lot of problems. I know the eventual goal is poor all-round but for me it's the fact that Carrick fails to make any defensive impact before the danger starts by keeping pressure on Diame. It forces Rafa to come inside and close the ball and then obviously the transitioning defense is caught out and all over the shop.
(Jones not tracking back was poor as well.)
I think there was also a genuine effort to play very deep for De Gea and not have him come off his line as much which meant the space between Carrick and the back four sometimes grew to more than we have been used to seeing previously.
Had a pretty good discussion with a couple of mates of mine staunchly from the 'Carrick is absolutely rubbish, how is he even in your team' camp (of course not United supporters) and I was trying to emphasize that the season he had last year was some of the best link/attacking play that we've seen from him in his career. When he's on for a medium range sharp pass he'll execute 9/10 and last year it was pivotal in the fact that we were releasing RVP in good positions and the midfielders playing further forward would see much cleaner ball in much more dangerous positions. (Much like if Kagawa was to play in behind we'd probably see more of the same).
Reading some things on the caf especially with Fabregas, of course he'd be an amazing signing but it worries me a little that as Carrick is getting older we're not looking to give him a bit of support and reinforcement for him to keep this form and style for the coming season. He'd be the absolutely perfect midfielder if he was to support someone who was closing and assaulting in the middle of the park with his reading of play to basically be on hand to cut off a critical pass and recycle possession or to receive a tackled ball and play a fast sharp pass to transition on the counter (or an attacking move).
I love him to bits but he was getting isolated and annihilated while being left one on one in midfield last season. Cleverley playing the type of role he does would be fantastic if he had a bit more power in his game. At the moment, to me that is our only really strong combination in the middle of the park and if Carrick himself goes down.. Yikes.
This is the sort of thing I am talking about when players get on the ball and we were hit on the counter through the middle of the park last year, a lot of the time Carrick was isolated and when he doesn't try to challenge for the ball it caused a lot of problems. I know the eventual goal is poor all-round but for me it's the fact that Carrick fails to make any defensive impact before the danger starts by keeping pressure on Diame. It forces Rafa to come inside and close the ball and then obviously the transitioning defense is caught out and all over the shop.
(Jones not tracking back was poor as well.)
I think there was also a genuine effort to play very deep for De Gea and not have him come off his line as much which meant the space between Carrick and the back four sometimes grew to more than we have been used to seeing previously.
Thats pretty much how he plays anyway? He was player of the year precisely because of his game reading and passing last year, not because he was tackling players. Unless he's playing with Scholes where he had to do almost everything and then pass it 3 yards to him.
It would be wiser to buy a genuinely top class and mobile player with some attacking threat to play next to Carrick. There are several types of players who would shine next to him. We probably won't get any for another year.
It would be wiser to buy a genuinely top class and mobile player with some attacking threat to play next to Carrick. There are several types of players who would shine next to him. We probably won't get any for another year.
When we were playing with Fletcher and on the odd occasion when he played with Hargreaves (rarely) it was those two that were always the deeper player. Obviously with Scholes lack of mobility there was issues with that. It's almost the same as with Anderson who has little to no defensive discipline at all and get's caught forward and out of position nearly the whole time when we lose the ball.
Tbf in the above scenario I don't really know what he could have done, we got caught on a counter with the guy having acres of room to run in to, if Carrick gets too tight than he risks getting skipped past. He stops him being able to pass infield. I'd say the rb, rafael I think gets beaten too easily and the CB, takes his eye of his man for the actual goal.
He had plenty of time to stay tight to Diame and push him away from goal. Even before he gets near the center circle he's going nearly away from the player standing a good 3 yards or maybe more at all times allowing him a pretty free 20-25 yard run forward and a dish off into the space created by Rafa who comes inside. (does he throw a bit of a 'feck get tighter!' arm wave at Carrick? Not sure)
I know it's easy to throw a random dart at one goal and say 'hey this guy should have done better and all' if there were more examples I could show then I probably would be able to illustrate the point better. Basically last year there were a lot of times when he wasn't keeping tight to his man and he was either waltzed past or just ended up marking space until the player was able to play a key pass leading to a chance. I just think it's worth having a look at giving Carrick the freedom to be in these kind of positions without any danger to the back four by taking a little defensive pressure off of him.
Say for example if he was Jones in that scenario (who was well well well poor I will add) and a ball winner effectively won the ball between the transition from where Diame started to motor around the circle and from when he dished off and was able to receive a pass he'd be in the perfect position to turn on the ball and face 4 up and play a key ball back in behind. Ah I dunno, just trying to get a bit of midfield discussion going since I am over the transfer bollocks.
I still think there is room to take Carricks role from last year and improve on that if we were to utilize a ball winner in the squad and not another string-puller or touch passer (Cleverley).
It certainly makes a bit of a point to me with how unbalanced our play can be at times with that outside left player missing. Evra stuck way too far forward in support and unable to get back. (I think it was Shinji there on the left who plays a more inside forward role which for me isn't really conducive to the heavy overlapping support, catching Patrice out a few times last season).
Of course this is not to say that Cleverley can't step up and have a special year beside Carrick. From what I have seen in this pre-season he's done very well in a more 'pressure on the ball' and 'tight to his man' role that he's been impressive in.
Whether that is of his own volition to play this way or what Moyes has directed him to do it will be very interesting if he does start the season beside Carrick.
Whether that is of his own volition to play this way or what Moyes has directed him to do it will be very interesting if he does start the season beside Carrick.
I think given Diame is in the centre of the pitch, with two players spread across the width from him there wasn't much Carrick could do, as I said if he gets too tight there's the risk Diame goes past him and can go straight towards the CBs. He makes him pass it wide and thats where we fail to deal with it imo.
I agree though on the general premise that with a more defensively sound partner it would allow Carrick to maybe push a bit further up and use his passing and even dribbling which can get underrated. I'd prefer a more creative player though just cause going forward Carrick will probably need to stay deeper to conserve his energy anway. Preferably we will bring in a creative and a defensively good player.
I agree though on the general premise that with a more defensively sound partner it would allow Carrick to maybe push a bit further up and use his passing and even dribbling which can get underrated. I'd prefer a more creative player though just cause going forward Carrick will probably need to stay deeper to conserve his energy anway. Preferably we will bring in a creative and a defensively good player.
Carrick's tackling and defensive play was superb last season. It's not a burden on him, it's an important part of his game. Try and turn him into too much of a creative player and you're just wasting half of his game.
I am not sure we were watching the same season. His stats were also down immensely as well.
Agreed. Watch the video I posted above and tell me with a straight face that his defensive work (and proper tackling, not just the 'reading the play' stuff which he's always been good at) wasn't exceptional.
, a cherry picked collage of his best tackles and interceptions? What about the video I posted of his poor defending? Also one cherry picked moment during the season where he had a bit of a shocker, if I could post more then I would but it isn't the point. I know he's good enough defensively to play a dual role. I'm promoting the paradigm that taking away the actual one on one ball winning would take his attacking play to another level. Hell it may fall over completely for all we know.I am surprised nobody has jumped on these posts. I am not intentionally trying to be inflammatory because it's just my opinion.
I guess muppetry and the transfer threads really are the in thing at the moment.
I have never seen Carrick as a good tackler, reads the game well which leads to interceptions and is a very good passer of the ball.
I am surprised nobody has jumped on these posts. I am not intentionally trying to be inflammatory because it's just my opinion.
I guess muppetry and the transfer threads really are the in thing at the moment.
I have no idea what you're trying to say with this bit.
I don't think you're being inflammatory, it's a reasonable opinion. I just don't agree with you. I think there's a bit of a trend these days to value attacking midfield contributions more highly than defensive ones, and view defending from midfield as a necessary evil that you get out of the way before the 'good stuff' starts. One of the reasons Carrick is such an excellent player is that he is simultaneously a superb defensive midfielder and creative midfielder. Why cut out 50% of his game just to improve the other 50% slightly?
As for cherrypicking, I'd go with the video which by half-way through (since I can't be arsed to go through the entire thing) has featured more than 30 top-quality tackles and more than 35 top quality interceptions. Rather than the video which shows one incident in which Carrick was partially at fault.
Watch the video. I agree he hasn't always been, but there's dozens of incredibly good tackles in there. It's one of the areas he really stepped up in last season, and as always his reputation is taking a while to catch up with his performances.
I posted this last night (aus time before i went to bed) and woke up expecting a whole bunch of 'feck off twat' posts. It's not the popular opinion on the caf that Carrick maybe isn't the hard defensive midfield man that he's expected to be. I guess everyone is busy in the muppet threads?
fair cop. I did actually watch it the other day and thought the same thing as I thought when watching the Fellaini one just now.. ('How the feck does anyone not rate this guy? This makes his control look outstanding.') So fair play
I just didn't think he was as sound defensively last year. We shipped a lot of goals in all competitions and that coupled with the unbalance at times on the left meant that his support was out of position a lot leaving him isolated and getting overrun. I suppose a more poignant argument would be the fact that he as a one man midfield band can't do it all. Hence why I was thinking along the lines of 'is 32.. Maybe it's time to start thinking about giving him support'. Obviously nobody is going to go around making 'why this guy can't defend' compilations. I'd be a bit of a sad twat if I made a video purely for that? But IMO defensively (especially when left isolated) I felt his lack of willingness to press his man was a bit of a problem last year. But then I guess when you're one on one in a dangerous area there is a huge risk in pressing your man tightly.
Might not be a "good tackler" but he makes more tackles than he does interceptions. Its been that way for at least the past 2 seasons where there has been a record of it. Maybe before that too.
How is Carrick's defensive play being debated? It's been top drawer ever since he got here. Bizarrely, he's one of the few players in the league that properly keeps tabs on players all around him in midfield when the opposition are attacking.
Best way to put it is to say he plays football like how a good FIFA player defends - constantly assessing other players and not necessarily going at the men if it leaves others open. That sort of defending can never be measured with statistics, but it stops attacks happening before they're conceived if that makes sense. He's the perfect player for keeping defensive shape; something that is miles more important than going around clattering into tackles and leaving the defence exposed.
I do often wonder why more players aren't like Carrick, although I suppose at the top level under that pressure it takes a certain coolness and focus to be like that. It's also a mindset you need to approach an entire game with and isn't for players that are after the glory of goals and assists. It's basically impossible to be that positionally disciplined whilst scoring/assisting at a consistent rate, which is why anyone that would criticise Carrick's productivity would not only be missing the point of his game, but would also be reasonable.
Best way to put it is to say he plays football like how a good FIFA player defends - constantly assessing other players and not necessarily going at the men if it leaves others open. That sort of defending can never be measured with statistics, but it stops attacks happening before they're conceived if that makes sense. He's the perfect player for keeping defensive shape; something that is miles more important than going around clattering into tackles and leaving the defence exposed.
I do often wonder why more players aren't like Carrick, although I suppose at the top level under that pressure it takes a certain coolness and focus to be like that. It's also a mindset you need to approach an entire game with and isn't for players that are after the glory of goals and assists. It's basically impossible to be that positionally disciplined whilst scoring/assisting at a consistent rate, which is why anyone that would criticise Carrick's productivity would not only be missing the point of his game, but would also be reasonable.
It doesn't make sense at all. It can't be measured but it can be argued that 'he stops attacks before they even happen'. Must be the best footballer on the planet if he can manipulate the game on a level where he can stop an attack before it even materializes. Quantum Carrick.
Don't be an idiot. He closes off angles and space to play passes that would otherwise be threaded through our midfield better than any other player in the league, and he's done it since he got here.
It does, even if it seems an odd way of saying it. If you just stick to the man in football and don't have any idea what's going on around you, you'll have players running off you, popping up in space behind you, drawing you out of position, etc... This is something you learn very quickly in football.
Carrick is at the other end of the scale; he basically never allows anything like this to happen and, as a result, players like him prevent attacks before they happen. There's only so much of an effect someone like Carrick can have if he's playing amongst a team of spastics, but thankfully we've had a well organised defensive unit in recent times that he's worked with wonderfully.
He does indeed see off danger
I'd like a midfielder that can take some of the defensive burden off him, and allow it so that he's not the only midfielder we have who knows how to defend.
Scholes and Carrick in the 2006-7 season was a wonder, fantastic partnership.
Ah ok, fair enough. I don't think it's such a wild opinion that people will jump on it. But you're probably right that the real crazies are in the transfer forum honey trap at the moment.
I think as you say the defensive weakness of the midfield had more to do with his lack of a settled, effective partner than his own incompetence. It was mostly a problem in the first half of the season when we kept putting Scholes and Giggs in there. As good as their contributions with the ball sometimes were, they no longer had the legs to do the basic work of a midfielder, and that left Carrick very exposed. But for me (and it's just an opinion), Carrick's defensive abolities are more than enough to sustain a midfield provided he has a quality partner. That partner needs to be able to carry his weight, defensively, but should not be the more defensive of the two. Because as good as Carrick is, creatively, he does not like to actually advance very often at all. Once or twice we've partnered him and Jones, and there's been a disastrously massive gulf in the middle of midfield because they both have the natural instinct to keep their starting position deep.
This bit I do agree with. I think we've hit a tipping point now where so many of our players naturally tend towards a pressing game (Kagawa, Welbeck, Cleverley, Anderson, Rooney, Rafael) that, with Moyes in charge (who played a fairly aggressive pressing defensive system at Everton) we are likely to see that become our defensive approach. But it has never been, and probably never will be, Carrick's natural game. His defensive style is much more in the old-school Italian mode. And there's a potential problem of introducing a more pressing approach when your best and most important player doesn't really do it.
Then again, it's possible that he could press if he was comfortable enough in the abilities of his partner. As you say, last season he so often found himself as the only person in front of the defence that he had to always take the cautious approach and try and gently slow down attacks, rather than just charge in. After all, you can't press on your own.
Big season for 'Carras' isn't it? Probably his last chance of a World Cup, and despite the fact that he's now seen as one of the top midfielders out there I still don't think he'll start games if we make it to Brazil. But at least it adds fuel to the fire so we can destroy Hodgson and his Gerrard's-Balls licking ways.
He'll definitely start if he has a season like the last two
Who would start ahead of him? Assuming they all have decent seasons I think it will be Carrick/Gerrard/Wilshere