Yeah I know, its not going to happen but Carrick and wilshere as the base of the midfield is the best combo we have that I can think off. Those two with a third midfielder i.e. Gerrard or Rooney in the hole is something I really want to see given a run of games.
Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?
- Thread starter Carl
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Yeah I know, its not going to happen but Carrick and wilshere as the base of the midfield is the best combo we have that I can think off. Those two with a third midfielder i.e. Gerrard or Rooney in the hole is something I really want to see given a run of games.
I think it'll be a two of Gerrard and Wilshere because Gerrard is still seen as our saviour and Wilshere, if fit, will play.
Then Rooney in behind Danny boy or Andy Carroll.
Don't get me wrong, I think he should 100% be the first name on the team sheet. It wasn't a meaningful game but his presence was excellent against Italy last year in the friendly, we need more of that and less of the 12 year old failed tactic that is Steven fecking Gerrard regardless of how many goals he's scored from 20 yards out or how many corners he's taken. We lose games/go out of tournaments because we're shit on the ball and can't hold onto it.
Unless Carrick has an awful season, there is no reasonable explanation for him not playing and I fully expect him not to play very much if England get there, it's just Hodgson logic.
If he is going to play with Gerrard(and he will), than it's best for him that Hodgson doesn't pick him at all.
I think that at the very least it sends a message (not a panic message, or a clear one). If he's not getting help that he can't always 'do it alone' or maybe even bordering on 'maybe he's not as good defensively as we really need being a top club fighting on all fronts'. That is where my suggestion of switching up the way his partner interacts. There is no secret that he is the chief Central MF and the chief DM. With all the combinations we have at the moment he's probably the strongest defensively but to me that doesn't say "he's a great DM". Yes he reads the game well and can play his static zone with great discipline which can lead to a lot of interceptions however that is not the entire skillset of a defensive midfielder. A player like Cleverley might have a bit of a sniff of goal and a tidy all-round skillset but you wouldn't say a 'goal scoring midfielder'. Or something along those lines anyway.
While we discuss what the ideal partner to him is there are a few really good possibilities when we look at our squad and how we are going to play. If we want to find him an offensive partner to play from deep then they have to have a good engine, be prepared to battle a bit and make themselves available. Cleverley when he's played has done that quite well at times but at others he gets much less of a 'pass and move' style of skillset from Carrick. Being that Carrick is much more a zonal type of player who is always 'reading' the game. Less of a mobility player. Which I think is why Anderson and Cleverley did so well at the start of the season a couple of seasons ago because Ando's erratic positioning was offset by being one of the better ball-movers in the club. Cleverley always looking to pass and move and Ando complementing it with the same type of balance.
Obviously there is a similar type of thing with Scholes and Giggs but as you mention their mobility is a problem. I really felt he 'grew' into the role alongside Cleverley (hard to picture Carrick growing into a combination!) as he learned to be just a touch more mobile and reading his play so if the club is going to go into this season without getting a midfielder in the hope that he will combine with Cleverley I hope we will be surprised because I think its one that can work if Cleverley presses like we saw in pre-season but at the same time is willing to pass to Carrick and then get a ball back from him and move forward. This also depends on what we do with Kagawa/Rooney and how we choose to play with the extra player in front of those two. Be it a striker playing deep in Rooney or a genuine 9 in Kagawa.
For sure. I am very interested to see what happens which is why I suggested to push Carrick's role in the right direction it would be better to have a player who is pressing the defenders into the intercept traps being set by his great play reading. You want the player pressing any central players with Carrick sitting beside or in advance for an eventual ball win and quick pass to Carrick or for Carrick himself to recycle possession. I think having this balance would help to keep our left sided problems in check. Not having Evra supporting so heavily with wide runs that he has to do when Young is playing (basically overlaps from more shallow near half way in the opposition half rather than Young cutting back to an overlap around the edge of the area in which Patrice was caught a few times last year) he basically doesn't play to the byline and with proper direct penetration. Instead he always comes back on his right foot for an option with Evra. Patrice at times was the furthest forward on the left and not supporting from an inside position for a deep cross. If we're going to move to a heavy press game then we need to do it with the right combination of players. Much like Rio at CB. You wouldn't really want to have Rio himself beside him because he's not an attacking harass type of defender. It's what Vidic brings to the combination that makes it so successful and imo has allowed Rio to keep playing at this level. (When Vidic has been there and with Evans/Smalling sometimes there is a bit of a take-up period of a couple of games before we look super tight at the back).
I think it's just the way he plays. I've always had a problem with the fact that he stands off players and lets them run a little bit to much. One moment I always go back to is in the FA cup when he had the chance to just chop Yaya after he loses the ball and take the gamble but let him keep running straight through and score. It's these types of things that I personally feel are a part of his game. His lack of willingness to get in the face of an opponent and let them know he's a strong lad who will go toe to toe. I am not saying that trying to be smart when defending is not good enough because it certainly is. I mean if hypothetically he knicks 5/10 attempts and or wins 5/10 attempts with the other 5 fouls and gets a ban.
I think in European competition these days, to me it is vital to have that defensive powerhouse in midfield because opposition are just way way to good and it's not like clogging the shit out of the rubbish in the premier league. When we have to man-mark another player and that said player 'puts in a shift' on him and it's not Carrick.. To me? That's also saying something pretty glaring.
I think so far as the discussion about Carrick's pressing goes, it's inevitable that he'd show a bit less urgency here due to what's already been said about him being integral to defensive shape. Given that our entire team is quite poor with pressing (in my opinion), it would throw the whole shape off a lot if Carrick were to be this sort of player. It's difficult to single-handedly keep shape like he does in midfield whilst charging around hassling opponents.
If we had more players that pressed heavily or defended like Carrick did, not only would he become less important, but he'd also have more leeway to harry, to go forward, to create, etc...
As it stands, the job he currently does is amazing. This isn't to say that there aren't instances whereby he could press the opponent a bit more, but by and large his thoughts first and foremost will be to shut off routes for opponents to exploit. You'd have to be one special player to have both of these facets nailed in our team.
If we had more players that pressed heavily or defended like Carrick did, not only would he become less important, but he'd also have more leeway to harry, to go forward, to create, etc...
As it stands, the job he currently does is amazing. This isn't to say that there aren't instances whereby he could press the opponent a bit more, but by and large his thoughts first and foremost will be to shut off routes for opponents to exploit. You'd have to be one special player to have both of these facets nailed in our team.
Some of his passing in that game was just unreal. His consistency, accuracy and weight of pass is unbelievable these days.
Still looks a bit sluggish, as is to be expected.
I hope his pre-season doesn't last three months into the actual Premier League campaign, which it tends to do.
I hope his pre-season doesn't last three months into the actual Premier League campaign, which it tends to do.
Low metabolism type, isn't he? He probably spent the summer with his feet up eating ice cream and watching Eastenders.
Looked absolutely ripped in that vacation photo though. I think it's an issue of match sharpness with him, just needs a while to get his rythm going.
It is crazy how the match changed when he came on. If he gets a serious injury before Moyes brings midfield reinforcements 
We need him to play every single match. He's the most important player in the squad right now.
Our whole season basically hinges on Carrick now. He's gonna have to play in every single important match, stay fit the whole season, and not drop in form at any point.
Its just ridiculous.
Its just ridiculous.
Yep. He's pretty much gotta play every single match.
He's even more important than RVP.
He's even more important than RVP.
The first season in quite some time he looks in top form right from the start. Was very good today. We'll definitely need him in the upcoming weeks.
Is it ott to suggest that Carrick of last season was as good as anything we've seen from Scholes?
Someone mentioned it on my facebook the other day and it did get me thinking...what does the cafe say?
Someone mentioned it on my facebook the other day and it did get me thinking...what does the cafe say?
No, no no no no no.
My first reaction was pretty much the same...but when I thought about it, its not actually that ludicrous a suggestion is it?
Carrick obviously offers a lot more defensively and he was running the midfield last year but at the end of the day we generally didn't play great football. When Scholes was dictating the play in 06/07 he was at the heart of the best football we've played in years. He had a much better supporting cast of course but he was playing as well as pretty much any midfielder in Europe besides Pirlo. Carrick wasn't that good last year. He was more like Alonso in 08/09.
Basically what Brwned said, Carrick had an excellent season but that's still nothing on a Scholes at his peak.
Yeah thats probably a fair assessment in truth, would be interesting how Carrick would have looked playing as he did last season in the 06/07 team, or some of the great ones that Scholes played in. I reckon not that dissimilar. Maybe just a level below in terms of creativity.
It's worth pointing out in this comparison that Scholes never had the defensive burden Carrick does.
You do realise Carrick was in that 06/07 team, right?
I meant a Carrick of last season (i.e a more mature and better player then the one we bought back in 2006).
This idea that Carrick was only good last year is a bit of a nonsense by the way. He was superb in 08/09, but people only remember the CL final.
Without a doubt. Last season was his best season though. He definitely took it up a level.
Fair enough. I don't think Carrick could have played Scholes' role in that team because Scholes was better technically and was the more attacking-minded player. Carrick could 'do a job', but he would never reach Scholes' level there.
And Scholes couldn't hold us together defensively. I don't think the two players are greatly comparable tbh.
his beard is coming along nicely, I want to see him Mellberg style
That would take another 30 years for our Michael
His passing is Scholes-like now. He's incredibly accurate with everything he does.
My favourite is when he's in the middle, and he drills a low ball towards the forward. It's just so effective.
My favourite is when he's in the middle, and he drills a low ball towards the forward. It's just so effective.
Its when he's in the middle and drills the ball forward, seemingly to on one, and I'm about to go mental, then suddenly its on RVP's foot.
I've always found Redcafe commentary on Carrick to be "nonsense" (we don't say "a nonsense" in the US, but I think it means the same thing). He's been fantastic to varying degrees since his arrival 6/7 seasons ago. I don't recall him ever being dropped from the XI at any point in his United career, aside from injury or the need to get in a quick rest, and he's rarely put in a poor performance. The CL final gets hung around his neck and rightly so, but the midfielders he was playing against that night were astonishing.
But by all means, let's carry on with the mindless "Carrick finally came through in 12/13" storyline.
Offensively it was his best season I believe? Defensively the stats weren't there and from what I saw personally I didn't think he was great when getting isolated constantly and trying to do it all. (What player is I guess).
Fell asleep during the game so I didn't see him play. Would love to make him the anchor and build a pivot around his game. A DM to tighten a CM more offensive to open the game up. He's the perfect combination player.
Yeah, you're one of the few left that think he's not very good defensively because he's not an Owen Hargreaves-type.
Fantastic to varying degrees?
Rarely out in a poor performance?
Are you talking about Carrick or scholes? Carrick has gone through many spells of being average at united.