Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?

Brwned said:
Does anyone have a theory on why Carrick genuinely does have a slow start in every season before hitting his peak at Christmas time? You could see him picking it up week by week in November as happens every year.
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Fitness? Perhaps he's a bit of a lazy arse in pre-season?

For what it's worth, I think he looked excellent vs Arsenal(paired with Cleverley) and very good at Chelsea(with Rooney and Clev in midfield) while when he's asked to carry one of Giggs/Scholes it usually goes tits up.

In fact, bar Southampton away he's looked very good next to Cleverley in every match they've started together. So I think it's fair to say that it's not exclusively down to poor form on his part.

He looked off the pace though in the majority of games earlier on in the season. Laboured and not really in top shape.
 
Yeah I have a theory, it's that he doesn't really, it's a bit of a myth.

This season he's looked weak when partnered with Scholes, who can't really run or defend, and Giggs who can run but isn't a strong CM presence... and largely very good when partnered with Anderson and Cleverley, who put themselves about.
 
Plechazunga said:
Yeah I have a theory, it's that he doesn't really, it's a bit of a myth.

This season he's looked weak when partnered with Scholes, who can't really run or defend, and Giggs who can run but isn't a strong CM presence... and largely very good when partnered with Anderson and Cleverley, who put themselves about.
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But even ignoring this season there's no doubt that he ususally takes a while to get going.

Last season he started playing in november.
 
It's happened at least three years in a row. Also, when he was being partnered with Cleverley earlier in the season, he was still managing to look shite. Southampton and Chelsea away for example. He was the worst player on the pitch in both games.

Also the Wigan and Stoke games I was at...it wasn't just that he was next to Scholes, who can't run. Carrick wasn't actually doing his job (or any job for that matter). The Wigan game in particular he was absolutely fecking awful. I genuinely wanted to run onto the pitch and strangle him to life.
 
If it was something fitness related surely our medical staff would have sorted it out by now? Given him extra work in preseason, told him to watch himself during the off season etc.Maybe it's part psychological? He just needs time to get used to playing again or something.

Either way it's weird that we just seem to have accepted Carrick's going to be shit for 2-3 months every year and there's nothing we can do about it.
 
He really wasn't the worst player on the pitch at Chelsea. He was really good.
Southampton, yeah, though most of the side was terrible.

I think playing next to Scholes these days genuinely confuses him. He's used to automatically deferring to Scholes, giving him the ball and screening the defence. But now Scholes sits so deep he feels he should move ahead of him. But then Scholes is absolutely nowhere near getting back when we lose possession, so he's also terrified to go beyond the halfway line. The net result is that he just sort of shuffles up and down a ten-yard axis, giving it to Scholes or using the Man United panic button - the pass to Valencia marked by two men.

At the end of the day he'll always be Michael Carrick, he's not going to lead, he'll rarely play much better than the team or his midfield partners.

All that said, he has undoubtedly stepped it up these last five games or so, whether or not it's symptomatic of a general tendency to improve as the season goes on. He not only looks very sharp and sprightly, but I think he's playing more authoritatively than I've ever seen him.
 
Plechazunga said:
He really wasn't the worst player on the pitch at Chelsea. He was really good.
Southampton, yeah, though most of the side was terrible.

I think playing next to Scholes these days genuinely confuses him. He's used to automatically deferring to Scholes, giving him the ball and screening the defence. But now Scholes sits so deep he feels he should move ahead of him. But then Scholes is absolutely nowhere near getting back when we lose possession, so he's also terrified to go beyond the halfway line. The net result is that he just sort of shuffles up and down a ten-yard axis, giving it to Scholes or using the Man United panic button - the pass to Valencia marked by two men.

At the end of the day he'll always be Michael Carrick, he's not going to lead, he'll rarely play much better than the team or his midfield partners.

All that said, he has undoubtedly stepped it up this season. He not only looks very sharp and sprightly, but I think he's playing more authoritatively than I've ever seen him.
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:lol:
 
What amazed me on Saturday was just how mobile he was.
I know he's always been capable of being mobile,and when paired with a mobile midfielder like Cleverley, he would of course get a lot of movement, but during the weekend he was so active I found it to be a pleasant surprise.

I distinctly remember seeing him overlapping Valencia on the right hand side, outside the sunderland box, receiving the ball and crossing it in. I found it a little weird how he ended up there, but nonetheless it was great to see him so active.
 
Plechazunga said:
I think playing next to Scholes these days genuinely confuses him. He's used to automatically deferring to Scholes, giving him the ball and screening the defence. But now Scholes sits so deep he feels he should move ahead of him. But then Scholes is absolutely nowhere near getting back when we lose possession, so he's also terrified to go beyond the halfway line. The net result is that he just sort of shuffles up and down a ten-yard axis, giving it to Scholes or using the Man United panic button - the pass to Valencia marked by two men.
.
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:lol:

Nail on the head.

I feel sorry for him (or any other midfielder, see Cleverley on Saturday) who gets paired with Scholes in a midfield two. They genuinely have no idea what to do. Go forward and you leave Scholes horribly exposed, sit back, and there is no movement at all in the centre, and we play like shit.

Its a no win situation, and I have no idea why Fergie still insists on using Scholes in this way.
 
marjen said:
But even ignoring this season there's no doubt that he ususally takes a while to get going.

Last season he started playing in november.
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That's the thing he only started playing then, I don't think he started the first 10 league games, can't complain at a guys performances when he isn't playing. I could be wrong but i'm fairlt certain he didn't start any.
 
Widnes said:
That's the thing he only started playing then, I don't think he started the first 10 league games, can't complain at a guys performances when he isn't playing. I could be wrong but i'm fairlt certain he didn't start any.
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure he had only started Champions League games up to the point... where the whole team had invariably been shite to be fair.
 
Brophs said:
No idea. He just seems to need lots of games to find his rhythm, for whatever reason.
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yea seems to be with the rhythm of the team aswell. We constantly have offensive players moving in and out and never a set partner in midfield. He is the constant along with rooney. There are new players to learn how they play- this season its RvP, last season it was Young and Jones.

Like Plech said I think the less he plays with Scholes the better, he has the passing range to dictate while someone like Cleverley, Anderson puts themselve about making space.

Hoping hes not out for too long as he was fantastic in the first half of the Sunderland game along with Cleverley.
 
Can't believe Fergie has said we aren't buying anyone in January. An injury to Carrick and we're down to our bare bones in midfield quality. I reckon we should have a punt on Cabaye, should be pretty cheap and would want to move here.
 
Went through and watched most of our goals scored so far this season and it's surprising (well actually it's not because he's a top class midfield player) just how many times he plays the 3rd or 4th pass in a goal scoring move
 
Plechazunga said:
He really wasn't the worst player on the pitch at Chelsea. He was really good.
Southampton, yeah, though most of the side was terrible.

I think playing next to Scholes these days genuinely confuses him. He's used to automatically deferring to Scholes, giving him the ball and screening the defence. But now Scholes sits so deep he feels he should move ahead of him. But then Scholes is absolutely nowhere near getting back when we lose possession, so he's also terrified to go beyond the halfway line. The net result is that he just sort of shuffles up and down a ten-yard axis, giving it to Scholes or using the Man United panic button - the pass to Valencia marked by two men.

At the end of the day he'll always be Michael Carrick, he's not going to lead, he'll rarely play much better than the team or his midfield partners.

All that said, he has undoubtedly stepped it up these last five games or so, whether or not it's symptomatic of a general tendency to improve as the season goes on. He not only looks very sharp and sprightly, but I think he's playing more authoritatively than I've ever seen him.
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:lol:

He wasn't very good against Chelsea. He was ok for about 25 minutes, then when Chelsea started to push on he caved in under the pressure and disappeared. He wasn't even screening the back four. That said, even this worked miles better than when he's been paired with Scholes or Giggs.

Southampton I just didn't think he looked fit. I think he'd been in defence for the two games prior to that? ...you know it's bad when Scholes comes on in order to give the team some extra energy, and it actually works.

The panic button would probably work slightly better if it was actually done in any kind of panicky way. If Scholes and Carrick were inside a burniing building, Scholes would refuse to leave until he'd finished reading his paper, and Carrick would just sit there staring gormlessly at the wall, waiting for Scholes to tell him that the building's on fire.

Carrick did the exact same thing this time last year. He had a run of games just before Christmas where he was suddenly running our midfield and dictating the entire game...then he regressed back into being Carrick in the new year. Still much better than he had been at the start of the season but just, well...Carrick.
 
noodlehair said:
:lol:

He wasn't very good against Chelsea. He was ok for about 25 minutes, then when Chelsea started to push on he caved in under the pressure and disappeared. He wasn't even screening the back four. That said, even this worked miles better than when he's been paired with Scholes or Giggs.

Southampton I just didn't think he looked fit. I think he'd been in defence for the two games prior to that? ...you know it's bad when Scholes comes on in order to give the team some extra energy, and it actually works.

The panic button would probably work slightly better if it was actually done in any kind of panicky way. If Scholes and Carrick were inside a burniing building, Scholes would refuse to leave until he'd finished reading his paper, and Carrick would just sit there staring gormlessly at the wall, waiting for Scholes to tell him that the building's on fire.

Carrick did the exact same thing this time last year. He had a run of games just before Christmas where he was suddenly running our midfield and dictating the entire game...then he regressed back into being Carrick in the new year. Still much better than he had been at the start of the season but just, well...Carrick.
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He didn't really regress, he was quieter as he had Scholes next to him again....and once again he had to do the donkey work to protect him. Carrick cannot play his natural game when paired with Scholes, he spends the entire 90 minutes screening his partner and not even the defence.

I would say in the final few weeks of last season he was easily our best midfielder, summarised by the game at the Etihad when he was basically trying to play Toure and Barry on his own. What can you really do when paired with a 37 year old and Ji-Sung Park?
 
acnumber9 said:
We should start a thread along those lines.
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i think giggsy and scholesy where used exactly how they should be on saturday.........get to 3-0, get the top lads off for a rest and give the squad players / kids a run out. exactly how we used to operate

i suppose it helps that it would now appear that fergie knows his best "front 6"
 
Brwned said:
Does anyone have a theory on why Carrick genuinely does have a slow start in every season before hitting his peak at Christmas time? You could see him picking it up week by week in November as happens every year.
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From what i can see, whenever we start a season we rarely have a settled midfield. By Xmas SAF has usually settled upon who he thinks are the best options and then they can expect a regular run as a pair.

The year when we last reached the CL final, he had played a lot of games alongside Giggs by that point. Last year a similar scenario occured, only this time with Scholes. It may be pure coincidence, but for me Carrick is a confidence player, so swapping and changing his partners does him no favours, as he is changing what he has to do week to week, dependent on the partner.

It seems to me all his best runs of form have coincided with having a regular partner. Carrick/Scholes in his first season. Fletcher/Carrick in his second. Ronaldo leaving changed the set up, and he was inconsistent for quite a while after that. Up until he was paired regularly with Giggs after Xmas 2 seasons ago, and then similarly with Scholes last year.

So that's my take on it. Giving him a regular partner where he can develop an understanding, leaves him far more comfortable and confident with what he has to do, than regularly swapping his partners which as a consequence regularly changes the requirements of his role.
 
ben_foster said:
i think giggsy and scholesy where used exactly how they should be on saturday.........get to 3-0, get the top lads off for a rest and give the squad players / kids a run out. exactly how we used to operate

i suppose it helps that it would now appear that fergie knows his best "front 6"
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I agree to an extent. Both have more to offer than just being subs though. I was being sarcastic as just about every thread seems to revert to being about how Giggs and Scholes are past it.
 
He fecking loves Christmas that's why. Christmas carrick.
 
It has to do with his sex life. Maybe this is the cycle. As it gets colder, they got to spice things up to generate the same warmth as before.

That or he has some performance contract with Santa.
 
Did Fergie mention him at all during the press conference? Everyone seems to be presuming he's fit but there was all that talk about his hamstrings earlier this week.
 
Chabon said:
Did Fergie mention him at all during the press conference? Everyone seems to be presuming he's fit but there was all that talk about his hamstrings earlier this week.
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I don't think so, which only means that he must be fit.
 
Shark22 said:
I don't think so, which only means that he must be fit.
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Michael Carrick can expect to be involved despite being withdrawn during the break against Sunderland as the midfielder could be in contention to start against Swansea on Sunday.

"We've got a few bumps and bruises," revealed the boss. "Carrick got a bit of a tight hamstring last week so I took him off at half time in the game against Sunderland but we're alright and not too bad in terms of player availability."

I reckon he'll start.
 
So sounds like he will play some part in the match then. I'd guess he will start, but hopefully we are not pushing it to the point where a niggle becomes a more serious injury
 
I have been looking out specifically for Carrick's name in match previews and he's generally not getting a mention, which I'm taking as good news. Looks like SAF took him off at HT last weekend as a precaution.

His form is steadily building to a really good level - there are also signs that SAF is prepared to let the partnership with Cleverley blossom, if both are fit.
 
Feed Me said:
I have been looking out specifically for Carrick's name in match previews and he's generally not getting a mention, which I'm taking as good news. Looks like SAF took him off at HT last weekend as a precaution.

His form is steadily building to a really good level - there are also signs that SAF is prepared to let the partnership with Cleverley blossom, if both are fit.
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If that happens, it will create quite an admirable midfield.
I'd be well happy to see them the main midfield for the rest of the season.
Would be better if Anderson was on form too, but this midfield two is our best option currently.
 
I think he is the main victim of Fergie's squad rotation because he rarely gets rotated out of the team due to us not having cover for him. Our selection policy is especially spastic at the start of the season when Fergie shoehorns players into the lineup to give them a game (especially in the CL). The constant changing of his role isn't good for a player who seems to play his best football when he is in a comfort zone.

I don't think it is a coincidence that Carrick's form improves once we get past the group stage.
 
Feed Me said:
I have been looking out specifically for Carrick's name in match previews and he's generally not getting a mention, which I'm taking as good news. Looks like SAF took him off at HT last weekend as a precaution.

His form is steadily building to a really good level - there are also signs that SAF is prepared to let the partnership with Cleverley blossom, if both are fit.
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1. This seems to have happened a few times in the last month or so. Cleverley came off recently after a knock and we all thought he was having another 'Anderson moment', but he started the next game. Maybe a conscious decision to err well on the side of caution to try and limit these soft-tissue injuries which we seem to get so many of? I'd be well in favour of something like that, even if it does mean occasionally seeing a slight dip in performance thanks to a cautionary substitution. Anything to stem the tide of hammies.

2. Here's hoping!
 
Great performance from him today, good covering, great through balls, best Carrick on show.
 
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