Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?

Adam-Utd said:
I think the other issue is it seems more of a tactical reason, it seems clear that carrick and scholes have both been told to sit deep and just ping the ball out wide to valencia whenever possible, and let him try to create from there.

Whenever we regain posession he is our first target.

Carrick is capable of joining the box and playmaking from there, but perhaps our defensive instability has caused fergie to ask them to sit back and shield.
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I agree that it seems very tactical and premeditated that they both sit deep when they play together. And I think its a huge mistake because it makes us so predictable compared to a midfield 2 / diamond formation.

Using the "we are top of the table and have scored most goals" argument doesnt really show that Carrick - Scholes is viable. Off the top of my head they played together against Liverpool and Villa this season, and both those matches we were absolute turd and didnt create many chances untill we made changes to the formation.

It seems like Fergie resorts to Carrick - Scholes in away games to soak up their pressure initially and then hope for a goal from a cross. Its a bit like the European "Win 1-0 formula" we used some years ago. It normally works pretty well, although its fecking boring football, because we have so many lethal attackers and (normally when on form) great wingers. But considering the vast amount of technical quality we have in the squad right now we could easily take the game to anyone at any ground except maybe the Nou Camp and expect to win with a more exciting style of football. Its annoying that SAF doesnt see this.
 
Plato said:
Lovely analysis. Shame it will be ignored and we'll be talking about the same thing in the future.
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Welcome to my world! :lol: I've been saying pretty much what you and Brostan are saying now ever since i joined the CAf. Not on my own admittedly, but a minority back then as opposed to now where it is a far more accepted view. While i still fully agree with you both, it brings it home to me just how long SAF has left this midfield issue fester.

The worst thing is that we look no closer to solving it. Imo, i think SAF cannot find a suitable midfielder, because right across Europe if not the world, he is watching players who play in a 3 week in week out. Yet because of our outdated system, we have to try and identify someone currently playing in a 3 and try and determine whether or not they can be effective alongside Carrick in a 2 in the EPL.

What worries me is that even our players are not particularly effective in a 2 man mid when played against a 3! So how can we reasonably determine whether other teams players would be?

The problem is clearly the system and until the enthusiasm for our current system changes, i really don't see how our search for that elusive super midfielder, or the problems we are regularly facing in midfield can change.
 
I'm half wondering whether it's old-aged stubbornness. His line ups at the moment smack a bit of "well, back in my day we always had 2 central midfielders and 2 wingers, so that's how we're gonna do it now".. ;)

To be fair to him it has been 'his day' for the last 20 odd years, but it has never been more clear than it has been now that we need to seriously look at what is going on with the midfield. We're all hammering on here repeatedly about the same thing over and over again because it's as clear as day, yet the greatest manager of all time cannot see it... it is the most incredible blind spot for such an obvious footballing genius!
 
I posted a link to an article where SAF said if there was a "young Keano or Robbo" out there, we'd do our best to get him. If that's the case, then I'm unsure how willing SAF is to change his system.
 
Don't get it twisted mate. I'm more than convinced Fergie sees it. I think he just wants to use it still. I'll be interested to see what he does when Kagawa comes back.
 
I think SAF has become like one of those old craftsmen who prefers to use the tools and methods he knows and trusts, rather than moving forward with the times.

his insistence on using Giggs and Scholes as an excuse not to sign midfielders is indication of that imo. He must surely see that we cannot match the likes of Barca playing 4-4-2. Last time we played them in the cL final, we were in great form, full of confidence, and as comfortable with 4-4-2 as we were ever likely to be, yet we were given a lesson.

I expected us to move in a different direction after that, yet we persist with the same old predictable system, and using the same players we had the last time we were successful in Europe. I see no real indication of change, other than expecting a striker to drop back and help out in our diamond system, but for me that is more a token gesture, rather than any great ambition for a move to a more progressive system.
 
For SAF to make out moving to a diamond formation as something noteworthy sums it up really. I have never really supported the view of Queiroz being the reason we were so great in Europe tactically. However, with each passing game, it does make me wonder. By no means is SAF not a good tactician but he's been quite reluctant to change tact.
 
Plato said:
Don't get it twisted mate. I'm more than convinced Fergie sees it. I think he just wants to use it still. I'll be interested to see what he does when Kagawa comes back.
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Hope so, but that Barcelona game was one and a half years ago now and the same mistakes are still being made. I should've posed the question there instead of stating that as fact, but I do wonder if stubbornness/resistance is there to the extent that is clouding vision on the issue. Like at some level it is psychologically just some sort of no go area due to our traditions as a club meaning it doesn't get properly assessed because of that. It seems unlikely for someone who is likely quite meticulous, but there are surely only so many times you can watch the team put in the same sort of performance for the same reason without asking the question.

It'd be nice to see Kagawa on the left when he gets back, because hopefully with him coming in that would go some way to linking the midfield and attack whilst providing the composure and confidence that Young currently does not. If we are to persist with two wider players, they've got to be good on the ball and comfortable in tight situations. Something like what Iniesta provides when he is playing more wide for Barcelona or, closer to home, how Daehli played for the academy the other day.
 
KingEric7 said:
Hope so, but that Barcelona game was one and a half years ago now and the same mistakes are still being made. I should've posed the question there instead of stating that as fact, but I do wonder if stubbornness/resistance is there to the extent that is clouding vision on the issue. Like at some level it is psychologically just some sort of no go area due to our traditions as a club meaning it doesn't get properly assessed because of that. It seems unlikely for someone who is likely quite meticulous, but there are surely only so many times you can watch the team put in the same sort of performance for the same reason without asking the question.

It'd be nice to see Kagawa on the left when he gets back, because hopefully with him coming in that would go some way to linking the midfield and attack whilst providing the composure and confidence that Young currently does not. If we are to persist with two wider players, they've got to be good on the ball and comfortable in tight situations. Something like what Iniesta provides when he is playing more wide for Barcelona or, closer to home, how Daehli played for the academy the other day.
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I think the transition to a new system is going slower than many anticipated. Not sure why but at this point, I think a good amount of us are surprised we haven't made the necessary changes to really push forward. We are making some strides now but it's still a bit slow.
 
Plato said:
I think the transition to a new system is going slower than many anticipated. Not sure why but at this point, I think a good amount of us are surprised we haven't made the necessary changes to really push forward. We are making some strides now but it's still a bit slow.
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The primary reason is injuries - Cleverley and Anderson were missing virtually all of last season, but are slowly being integrated this year.
Kagawa being out at the moment doesn't help either.

Regardless of that, Carrick will be an integral part of any new system anyway - but obviously Scholes cannot be his long term midfield partner.
 
KingEric7 said:
I'm half wondering whether it's old-aged stubbornness. His line ups at the moment smack a bit of "well, back in my day we always had 2 central midfielders and 2 wingers, so that's how we're gonna do it now".. ;)

To be fair to him it has been 'his day' for the last 20 odd years, but it has never been more clear than it has been now that we need to seriously look at what is going on with the midfield.

We're all hammering on here repeatedly about the same thing over and over again because it's as clear as day, yet the greatest manager of all time cannot see it... it is the most incredible blind spot for such an obvious footballing genius!
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And yet here we are, top of the table after heinous defensive injury problems, Chavski's run away start to the season, scoring goals for fun and qualified easily into the money phase of the ECL.

Yep, SAF just can't see what the experts on the cafe can!
 
sammsky1 said:
And yet here we are, top of the table after heinous defensive injury problems, Chavski's run away start to the season, scoring goals for fun and qualified easily into the money phase of the ECL.

Yep, SAF just can't see what the experts on the cafe can!
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I doubt that someone can deny that out midfield (especially when is a 2 man midfield) is not good.
 
Revan said:
I doubt that someone can deny that out midfield (especially when is a 2 man midfield) is not good.
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its better than the vast vast vast majority of teams out there! its perhaps just one player away from genuine greatness.

Allow this squad to play out abit and see where it takes us.

Lets allow Cleverley, Anderson and Kagawa to bed in this year and see where we end up.
 
sammsky1 said:
its better than the vast vast vast majority of teams out there! its perhaps just one player away from genuine greatness.

Allow this squad to play out abit and see where it takes us.

Lets allow Cleverley, Anderson and Kagawa to bed in this year and see where we end up.
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If by majority you mean the majority of teams in league, yes you're right but no-one is denying it.

I think that we virtually have no chance against best teams in Europe if we play classic 4-4-2.
 
Plato said:
I think the transition to a new system is going slower than many anticipated. Not sure why but at this point, I think a good amount of us are surprised we haven't made the necessary changes to really push forward. We are making some strides now but it's still a bit slow.
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Guessing as much as the next caftard, I venture:

Ferguson has for a long time seen Carrick as an ample key man in midfield for several years to come. He has seen Fletcher as a surefire class act, Anderson as as good a bet as any to 'replace' scholes, cleverley as a talent big enough to avoid fetching an established rival and with fletchers sickness, saw Scholes as as good a squad member as needed, and Powell in time as an exciting understudy. He views the injuries of ando and clev as passing detriments (unlike most of the fans) and thinks the duration is better handled rotating players like giggs, jones, rooney than buying expensive to fill a short term hole.

Just a guess, but the focus on players like rvp, kagawa, lucas and ha ard indicates to me that fergie always thought we were well equiped in midfield, and still are. He believes in those players, more so than most of us. I think.

Of course, going with scholesy in a two man away to villa, he is bound to be declared delirious by me, in the least, but on the whole, he is producing results while seemingly moving forward at the same time.
 
sammsky1 said:
And yet here we are, top of the table after heinous defensive injury problems, Chavski's run away start to the season, scoring goals for fun and qualified easily into the money phase of the ECL.

Yep, SAF just can't see what the experts on the cafe can!
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Whether you agree or disagree with him, this argument is useless. We're Manchester United, we've got a bloody amazing team. We're doing very well. But only eight or so near-miraculous comebacks separate this very good start to the season from one of our worst ever. Just because we've done well doesn't mean Fergie hasn't been showing some serious errors in judgement, and it doesn't mean we couldn't be doing much, much better.

We've got maximum points in the CL but, assuming you've actually watched our matches, you can't seriously argue that it's been anything like 'easy'. We're extremely lucky to have done so well.
 
sammsky1 said:
whats to criticise a team top of the table and in a rude run of good form?
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Despite the results, I don't think that we played that well this season. Against Pool and particularly Spurs (first half) we have shown the worst football I have ever seen been played by us.

Also, 10 times this season we were losing. Although 8 times we have returned (which is exciting to watch), it is not such a bad thing. Personally give me everytime that run of 1-0 than these 3-2 games. The problem is that it is very possible that the trend of being able to return will not continue forever and it is very dependable in RVP (and Chicha) form.

So, there is no deny that there are some problems here which should be addressed. And no denying that we are not as good as 2007-2009. But, potential is there and I think that SAF will start changing things more often, and I really hope (and believe) that he won't start anymore 4-4-2 in big matches.
 
sammsky1 said:
its better than the vast vast vast majority of teams out there! its perhaps just one player away from genuine greatness.

Allow this squad to play out abit and see where it takes us.

Lets allow Cleverley, Anderson and Kagawa to bed in this year and see where we end up.
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I agree with all of this completely. But that's exactly what SAF has not been doing, hence the perfectly justified criticism.
 
Brightonian said:
Whether you agree or disagree with him, this argument is useless. We're Manchester United, we've got a bloody amazing team. We're doing very well. But only eight or so near-miraculous comebacks separate this very good start to the season from one of our worst ever. Just because we've done well doesn't mean Fergie hasn't been showing some serious errors in judgement, and it doesn't mean we couldn't be doing much, much better.

We've got maximum points in the CL but, assuming you've actually watched our matches, you can't seriously argue that it's been anything like 'easy'. We're extremely lucky to have done so well.
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Whilst I agree that we've left ourselves with some tight margins and seemingly unneccesarily difficult situations to get out off so far this season... Have we been "lucky" though? I think the only real genuine bit of luck we had was against Chelsea with the offside goal. The rest of the wins we've achieved this season we've done so through good play, hard work and a superb desire to win... I'm not sure I would chalk that down to luck.
 
Grande said:
Just a guess, but the focus on players like rvp, kagawa, lucas and ha ard indicates to me that fergie always thought we were well equiped in midfield, and still are. He believes in those players, more so than most of us. I think.
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great post. you said it better than i could.

It would help in these debates if people tried to have empathy for what SAFs thinking is before they weigh in with their opinion.
 
Brightonian said:
Whether you agree or disagree with him, this argument is useless. We're Manchester United, we've got a bloody amazing team. We're doing very well. But only eight or so near-miraculous comebacks separate this very good start to the season from one of our worst ever. Just because we've done well doesn't mean Fergie hasn't been showing some serious errors in judgement, and it doesn't mean we couldn't be doing much, much better.

We've got maximum points in the CL but, assuming you've actually watched our matches, you can't seriously argue that it's been anything like 'easy'. We're extremely lucky to have done so well.
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Thats called culture and habit, not luck.
 
Brightonian said:
I agree with all of this completely. But that's exactly what SAF has not been doing, hence the perfectly justified criticism.
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Good point. But I think that has had alot to do with the defensive chaos we have had this season. Put simply, until we can get that part of the team reliable again so it consistently keeps clean sheets, any midfield selection has to give that precedence.

Likewise, Anderson was injured and Kagawa also just as he seemed to get going. Lets get all of them back and see what SAF deploys. I have big hopes for Cleverley and Kagawa. Thrown Anderson into that mix and it could be a most vibrant 3-some.

I have a feeling that by the season end, we will see out midfield functioning in a way very different to how we stared the season. And that is without another midfield signing in the winter transfer window.
 
Anderson hasn't been injured.

Besides, there have been plenty of games where SAF could've used our young, promising midfielders but instead decided to pointlessly play Scholes and Giggs instead.
 
That is not at all far fetched, I think things would be very different today if Anderson and Cleverley had stayed fit all last season. Putting league outcomes to one side, if they had played that season together, gained that experience, instilled that level of confidence in their fitness levels etc, SAF wouldnt be wrapping them up in cotton wool so much this season - plus, they would surely be better players for having had that experience.

Not that it can be proved one way or t'other. But still.
 
sammsky1 said:
Thats called culture and habit, not luck.
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No, it's a bit of both. It's great that we can do that, and do it more reliably than any other side on the planet. But we don't want to become a team who get dicked on for 75 minutes before turning up with a couple of goals and possibly grabbing some points.

sammsky1 said:
Good point. But I think that has had alot to do with the defensive chaos we have had this season. Put simply, until we can get that part of the team reliable again so it consistently keeps clean sheets, any midfield selection has to give that precedence.
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I really don't see what the defence has to do with anything, except possibly that one game where SAF had to play Carrick at CB. It's not like we've been prioritising a defensive midfield set-up over an attacking midfield set-up. We don't really have a defensive midfield set-up. What we've been doing is picking shit midfields - Carrick and Giggs/Scholes, Giggs and Anderson, Scholes and Giggs - over a good midfield - Ando-Carrick-Cleverley.

And injuries have had nothing to do with it. Ando's not been injured. Read back through the match-day threads, and you'll see I and many others calling for that three-man midfield (let's call it ACC, for brevity) again and again, only to see us pick a two man with one of the oldies, and get outplayed for most of the match.

Yes, it would be great to have Kagawa to throw into that mix too. But until we get those three in there playing together, Kagawa's not going to make much difference. Rooney's been brilliant at the sorts of things Kagawa will be brilliant at, but you need the midfield to be doing it before the forwards can join in. Put Kagawa in with Carrick and Scholes and he'll be underwhelming, and people will unfairly blame it on him, and claim that he was overrated at Dortmund. That's caftardia for you.

Adebesi said:
That is not at all far fetched, I think things would be very different today if Anderson and Cleverley had stayed fit all last season. Putting league outcomes to one side, if they had played that season together, gained that experience, instilled that level of confidence in their fitness levels etc, SAF wouldnt be wrapping them up in cotton wool so much this season - plus, they would surely be better players for having had that experience.

Not that it can be proved one way or t'other. But still.
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Good point. Kevin fecking Davies.
 
I really do hold onto the hope that ACC is being protected and eased into things, and that SAF is just being mindful of the injury problems AC have had in the past. I believe we will see ACC increasingly frequently as time goes on, injuries permitting, until the point comes where there is no longer any debate about it, beyond the usual tinkering around the edges - Scholes / Fletcher / Powell coming in here and there.

Its not so much that I see overwhelming evidence for this, as I want to believe it so much that I have succeeded in making myself.
 
sammsky1 said:
Good point. But I think that has had alot to do with the defensive chaos we have had this season. Put simply, until we can get that part of the team reliable again so it consistently keeps clean sheets, any midfield selection has to give that precedence.
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Sammsky, we are not going to get a reliable defence without giving it better protection from midfield. That is the whole point. Considering how we are struggling to control games and prevent our opponents scoring, playing 2 in the middle is simply compounding the defensive uncertainty.

Shouldn't we try to alleviate that vulnerability by giving ourselves a better chance to control matches with 3 in the middle?

Look at our best performance this season imo. Newcastle away. We played 3 in the middle, completely controlled the game, scored 3 goals and even enjoyed the rarity of a clean sheet. Surely in such a difficult fixture, that system showed the way forward by striking the right type of balance between defensive solidity, midfield control and attacking potency.

Likewise, Anderson was injured and Kagawa also just as he seemed to get going. Lets get all of them back and see what SAF deploys. I have big hopes for Cleverley and Kagawa. Thrown Anderson into that mix and it could be a most vibrant 3-some.
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How could it ever be a vibrant 3-some, when we mostly play a 2-some? This is why many of us are shouting for the 3 man midfield to be introduced more often, because we are struggling so often playing only 2 in there.
 
Introducing a three man midfield means dropping either Rooney or RVP. Thats why fergie has been persisting with a 2, he wants to fit both of them in.
 
Dear SAF,

We on RedCafe have been discussing it and we have come to a decision.

With everyone fit and available the team should be: Back 5, ACC, Kagawa, Rooney, RVP.

Please can you fix it for us? And no, we are not saying you are a paedo.

Cheers,

RC.
 
SkeppyRed said:
Introducing a three man midfield means dropping either Rooney or RVP. Thats why fergie has been persisting with a 2, he wants to fit both of them in.
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Not necessarily. It means more playing without wingers. We can use diamond formation with both of them playing (and Kagawa/Hernandez too),or we can use 4-3-3 with both of them playing (Rooney on the left, a winger on the right, RVP center). So, that definitely is not an issue.
 
Revan said:
Not necessarily. It means more playing without wingers. We can use diamond formation with both of them playing (and Kagawa/Hernandez too),or we can use 4-3-3 with both of them playing (Rooney on the left, a winger on the right, RVP center). So, that definitely is not an issue.
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Sort of agree. See the 'Good football' thread.
 
SkeppyRed said:
Introducing a three man midfield means dropping either Rooney or RVP. Thats why fergie has been persisting with a 2, he wants to fit both of them in.
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Unless one of them is playing badly, there will always be room for both Rooney and RVP, even in a 3 man midfield. The other possibility is Rooney as one of the 3, in an attacking midfield position. Given our quality of forward options and thinness in midfield, it may be that he starts to drop back more and more. Rooney is the alternative to Scholes for midfield creativity, though further forward than Scholes, who I think plays too deep anyway.
 
Carrick has not been at his best this season so far but I think he's definitely going to be a starter the bulk of the time no matter the formation.
 
surf said:
Unless one of them is playing badly, there will always be room for both Rooney and RVP, even in a 3 man midfield. The other possibility is Rooney as one of the 3, in an attacking midfield position. Given our quality of forward options and thinness in midfield, it may be that he starts to drop back more and more. Rooney is the alternative to Scholes for midfield creativity, though further forward than Scholes, who I think plays too deep anyway.
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That is practically where he has been playing. The Chelsea game in particular he was very deep at times.
 
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