Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?

[Ole'sbodyguard]

If by majority you mean the majority of teams in league, yes you're right but no-one is denying it.

I think that we virtually have no chance against best teams in Europe if we play classic 4-4-2.

I don't think United have played a classic 4-4-2 all season. We have veared between a system of having no wingers(4-3-3) and a 4-3-2-1. I watched United regularly in the 80's and know what a classic 4-4-2 is.

As Sammsky says as well there still plenty to monitor in terms of Anderson and Cleverley who are very good talents with Kagawa to cement a proper place and we have our best squad for since 07/08 as well as a host of defensive players to return and the best attack in the Premiership and arguably, Barca aside, in Europe. There's plenty to be positive about.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

That is practically where he has been playing. The Chelsea game in particular he was very deep at times.

It's where Rooney has played for pretty much his entire partnership with RVP and is where he played for 10/11 when he was paired with Hernandez. It's something Fergie actually started in 05/06 when Rooney was armed with the responsibility of picking up and tracking whoever the deepest midfielder was for certain types of opposition(e.g. Makelele for Chelsea) when paired with Ruud OR Saha.

 

[Platato]

Why is that those who choose to be the optimists on here can't look at our current issues with any sense of realism? I'm glad to be top of the league but that doesn't mean we don't have issues. Yet in some people's minds, this equates to our team can't be criticized. Shocking. We've somehow been able to collect the points despite not being in great form. At one point or another, if you don't address it, it's going to catch up with you.

 

[Platato]

Guessing as much as the next caftard, I venture:

Ferguson has for a long time seen Carrick as an ample key man in midfield for several years to come. He has seen Fletcher as a surefire class act, Anderson as as good a bet as any to 'replace' scholes, cleverley as a talent big enough to avoid fetching an established rival and with fletchers sickness, saw Scholes as as good a squad member as needed, and Powell in time as an exciting understudy. He views the injuries of ando and clev as passing detriments (unlike most of the fans) and thinks the duration is better handled rotating players like giggs, jones, rooney than buying expensive to fill a short term hole.

Just a guess, but the focus on players like rvp, kagawa, lucas and ha ard indicates to me that fergie always thought we were well equiped in midfield, and still are. He believes in those players, more so than most of us. I think.

Of course, going with scholesy in a two man away to villa, he is bound to be declared delirious by me, in the least, but on the whole, he is producing results while seemingly moving forward at the same time.

It's a good guess. There are multiple ways of looking at our midfield situation. Hence, why finding a clear solution isn't necessarily so simple. It's why no one can really come to a general consensus of the right thing to do. I would disagree Fergie thinks we're well equipped. I would venture to say he thinks our midfield is functional enough that we don't need a midfield signing just yet. This may change but as of right now, he seems content. Keep in mind, this does not equate to being "well equipped in midfield"

 

[Adebesi]

Why is that those who choose to be the optimists on here can't look at our current issues with any sense of realism? I'm glad to be top of the league but that doesn't mean we don't have issues. Yet in some people's minds, this equates to our team can't be criticized. Shocking. We've somehow been able to collect the points despite not being in great form. At one point or another, if you don't address it, it's going to catch up with you.

I definitely don't think there's anything wrong with analysing and criticising performances. And I feared the worst over the summer, mainly due to misgivings about the ability of Cleverley and especially Anderson to stay fit. But I am feeling cautiously optimistic. You can say we aren't playing well, we need to address it, maybe change something, before its too late. But maybe if we hold tight things will start to click. Midfield need to get to RVP and Kagawa. Anderson and Cleverley will get better if they stay fit, they have missed a lot of football for young lads. Fletcher will improve. So there's grounds for faith that if we keep playing and grinding out the results, everything will fall into place.

 

[Brightonian]

I definitely don't think there's anything wrong with analysing and criticising performances. And I feared the worst over the summer, mainly due to misgivings about the ability of Cleverley and especially Anderson to stay fit. But I am feeling cautiously optimistic. You can say we aren't playing well, we need to address it, maybe change something, before its too late. But maybe if we hold tight things will start to click. Midfield need to get to RVP and Kagawa. Anderson and Cleverley will get better if they stay fit, they have missed a lot of football for young lads. Fletcher will improve. So there's grounds for faith that if we keep playing and grinding out the results, everything will fall into place.

They don't even need to get better right now, they just need to get picked. That is literally all we need to get the performances going.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Well said, Simone.

I wish I could find a thread on here free from griping and tedious over-analysis. This place has all got very samey.

The season so far's been great fun. Top of the league(s) and some incredibly entertaining games to watch. Shame so few of you seem able to enjoy it.

 

[Brightonian]

Perfectly possible to enjoy the matches and then get your teeth stuck into a bit of analysis on here. They're not mutually exclusive.

 

[ghaliboy]

Its completely true though. If you think Carrick is bad at reading the game then you dont have a clue.

I still stand by the fact that 'he reads the game well' is massively overrating his ability. Subsequent posts thereafter.

Purely and simply nearly every criticism in this thread directly relates to his faults at reading the game. If several different people complain about these things time and time again, where there is smoke there is fire.

I am critical of Carrick and also praise him for what he does well when he does it. But I personally thing people overrate his 'he reads the game well' immensely. To the point of almost total bollocks being spouted.

But it's cool, it seems we as fans either love him or hate him. I love him but I recognise his strengths and his weaknesses. It seems if you make a criticism of him though you're automatically lumped into the 'you just hate him and scapegoat him category.' On the contrary if you say he's great at everything everyone says you're a blind Carrick lover.

 

[Platato]

I definitely don't think there's anything wrong with analysing and criticising performances. And I feared the worst over the summer, mainly due to misgivings about the ability of Cleverley and especially Anderson to stay fit. But I am feeling cautiously optimistic. You can say we aren't playing well, we need to address it, maybe change something, before its too late. But maybe if we hold tight things will start to click. Midfield need to get to RVP and Kagawa. Anderson and Cleverley will get better if they stay fit, they have missed a lot of football for young lads. Fletcher will improve. So there's grounds for faith that if we keep playing and grinding out the results, everything will fall into place.

Perfectly possible to enjoy the matches and then get your teeth stuck into a bit of analysis on here. They're not mutually exclusive.

Spot on.

 

[KingEric7]

And yet here we are, top of the table after heinous defensive injury problems, Chavski's run away start to the season, scoring goals for fun and qualified easily into the money phase of the ECL.

Yep, SAF just can't see what the experts on the cafe can!

I am not denying I am happy with our league position despite this.

Sir Alex makes mistakes. Nor queshun abow tha'. We have a lot of individual quality at the moment though that is seemingly strong to the extent that we can get away with a lot of the problems in our line up. I fear a Dortmund or a Barcelona though - we'll probably get shown up again if we don't learn.

 

[sammsky1]

I am not denying I am happy with our league position despite this.

Sir Alex makes mistakes. Nor queshun abow tha'. We have a lot of individual quality at the moment though that is seemingly strong to the extent that we can get away with a lot of the problems in our line up. I fear a Dortmund or a Barcelona though - we'll probably get shown up again if we don't learn.

What happens if we beat a Dortmund or Barcelona? What then? Are we still shite?

 

[sammsky1]

Well said, Simone.

I wish I could find a thread on here free from griping and tedious over-analysis. This place has all got very samey.

The season so far's been great fun. Top of the league(s) and some incredibly entertaining games to watch. Shame so few of you seem able to enjoy it.

Reading some of these threads, you'd be forgiven if you thought we were in Arsenal like status!

Yep, same as you Pogue, it's been one of the most enjoyable starts to a season that I can remember. And I'm confident SAF knows what he is doing in terms of readying his midfield for the important post new year run for the title.

 

[KingEric7]

What happens if we beat a Dortmund or Barcelona? What then? Are we still shite?

I don't ever remember saying we were shite. No need to twist my words when there is essentially just harmless analysis at hand on an internet forum. No doom and gloom here, nor am I anything but delighted at the fact that we are top of the league. Really don't see the problem, to be honest!

This forum would be fecking boring if we all just constantly lavished praise mindlessly upon the team even when there are actual (obvious) issues to talk about. There is absolutely nothing wrong with discussing the fact that, over the last year or so, there have been certain recurring themes that have at times been of great detriment to our performance. As the poster above said, it is possible to talk about this sensibly in conjunction with being delighted at our league position and team.

 

[ghaliboy]

Sir Alex makes mistakes. Nor queshun abow tha'. We have a lot of individual quality at the moment though that is seemingly strong to the extent that we can get away with a lot of the problems in our line up. I fear a Dortmund or a Barcelona though - we'll probably get shown up again if we don't learn.

He's our only fit defensive minded imposing midfielder. I still think that if Carrick was playing short pass and move with a proper limited ground and pound DM holding midfield for him we would get a lot more out of him.

 

[Feed Me]

I feel sorry for Carrick when he's played in the wrong midfield combination - i.e. a duo with either Scholes or Giggs. We get overrun, and this is often cast as Carrick's fault for being unable to grab the game by the scruff of the neck. The reality is that he is given an inordinate amount of work to do, when played alongside either of our old stagers.

I took Liverpool away this season as an example. Carrick, absurdly, played alongside Giggs in a midfield two, and United were overrun as expected, somehow winning the game. Took a look at the heat maps from a website called Squawka and they were very interesting indeed. Giggs basically only occupied the left side of the pitch - his average position during the game made it seem like he was playing as a withdrawn left winger, as opposed to a central midfielder. That's tactical suicide in what is traditionally one of our hardest games of the season.

Against Villa, it was a combination of Scholes and Carrick. Scholes notched his usual good pass completion percentages (though he gave a few bad balls away), but he was completely useless when he didn't have the ball, and we were played through at will.

Carrick gets it in the neck for not being able to do the work of two players. It's simple stuff really - pick sensible midfield combinations. The entire fan base can seem to see that Carrick-Scholes/Giggs leaves us horribly open, so why are the coaching team seemingly oblivious?

 

[Nate Dogg]

I feel sorry for Carrick when he's played in the wrong midfield combination - i.e. a duo with either Scholes or Giggs. We get overrun, and this is often cast as Carrick's fault for being unable to grab the game by the scruff of the neck. The reality is that he is given an inordinate amount of work to do, when played alongside either of our old stagers.

I took Liverpool away this season as an example. Carrick, absurdly, played alongside Giggs in a midfield two, and United were overrun as expected, somehow winning the game. Took a look at the heat maps from a website called Squawka and they were very interesting indeed. Giggs basically only occupied the left side of the pitch - his average position during the game made it seem like he was playing as a withdrawn left winger, as opposed to a central midfielder. That's tactical suicide in what is traditionally one of our hardest games of the season.

Against Villa, it was a combination of Scholes and Carrick. Scholes notched his usual good pass completion percentages (though he gave a few bad balls away), but he was completely useless when he didn't have the ball, and we were played through at will.

Carrick gets it in the neck for not being able to do the work of two players. It's simple stuff really - pick sensible midfield combinations. The entire fan base can seem to see that Carrick-Scholes/Giggs leaves us horribly open, so why are the coaching team seemingly oblivious?

Brilliant post, this is exactly my view on our midfield and the reason why Carrick gets so much criticism.

 

[Stack]

Why is that those who choose to be the optimists on here can't look at our current issues with any sense of realism? I'm glad to be top of the league but that doesn't mean we don't have issues. Yet in some people's minds, this equates to our team can't be criticized. Shocking. We've somehow been able to collect the points despite not being in great form. At one point or another, if you don't address it, it's going to catch up with you.

The thing I cant work out is why people are more interested in bitching about the team more than anything else. I have watched all our games this season and if I were to just base how I thought the team was doing via this forum then I would come to the conclusion this is the worst United team in 30 years and we are basically shit.

What also seems to have been forgotten is that typically we change in to top gear after xmas so to be at the top of our CL group and the EPL at this point if the year is a good thing.

Its getting worse, our fans are giving the impression of being spoilt whingers preferring to bitch than to celebrate and support.

 

[Ash_G]

Thing is a wide 442 doesn't lend itself to having a holding player, it's too wide, particularly with most teams playing really narrow. One player can have more responsibility than the other, but both players need to do their bit and simply put in a counter attacking move Scholes can't do that, when we're organized and have men back Scholes is usually ok because his positioning is pretty good, but when we're being countered he can't cover the ground and it's unrealistic that Carrick could do his work for him. Remember when Keane was loosing his legs, we brought in Fletcher alongside Scholes and Keane to counter this, not it's the same situation, or has been but we've been trying to get by with just Carrick.

The two other top teams that play in a similar set up to us are Real and Spurs. Real always have Alonso and Khedira/Diarra/Essien, there's 2 players who can contribute defensively. At spurs even when they had Modric he could do his bit, even if Parker took most reponsibility, and then they still occassionally stuck Modric wider to have another player like Sandro in there. Apart from Fletcher we don't have anyone who is defensively strong in the middle to partner Carrick, Clev and Ando work hard but positionally they can be exploited.

I can't think of a team that plays as wide as us and then has one player responsible for all the defensive work.

When we play more narrow, it's much more noticeable that Carrick/Fletcher are defensive shields as that set up allows them to do that and it reduces the amount of space teams have to counter us. The only space is out wide, which from our perspective is less threatening than straight through the middle.

Carrick's not perfect and he could do more but some of the expectations are unrealistic given no one else at a top club has to cover a whole midfield himself.

 

[Platato]

The thing I cant work out is why people are more interested in bitching about the team more than anything else. I have watched all our games this season and if I were to just base how I thought the team was doing via this forum then I would come to the conclusion this is the worst United team in 30 years and we are basically shit.

What also seems to have been forgotten is that typically we change in to top gear after xmas so to be at the top of our CL group and the EPL at this point if the year is a good thing.

Its getting worse, our fans are giving the impression of being spoilt whingers preferring to bitch than to celebrate and support.

That bit in bold isn't nearly as true as you're trying to make it. We usually do this but at the same time it doesn't always happen. Hasn't happened for the past two seasons. We've just coasted. That's not the same as hitting top gear.

I mostly see people arguing over the same issues we've witnessed for years now. Some people choose to accept it for what it is and would rather only look at the positives. Others ponder why we are still having these issues. Others try and come up with their own solutions and some just go to the extreme with their opinions and say awful stuff about the management.

Also, there's a good amount on here who act that if you whinge about the game, it means you didn't enjoy it. As someone else pointed out before, you can still enjoy a match and moan about it later. They're really not as mutually exclusive as some seem to think on here. Everyone processes the match in different ways. Although, it shouldn't be an excuse to espouse inaccuracies simply because, "it's my opinion".

Feed Me makes a great point about our midfield. I and a lot of other posters can see at times, we don't pick sensible midfield combinations. For me personally, it's annoying because we simply make games harder for ourselves unnecessarily.

I think less people would "bitch" if the same issues didn't keep on arising. As it stands now, that simply is not the case.

 

[Platato]

What happens if we beat a Dortmund or Barcelona? What then? Are we still shite?

Let's talk after it happens. How does that sound? Until then, there's really no use talking about it.

This team isn't shite. Just not playing to its potential.

 

[Siorac]

What also seems to have been forgotten is that typically we change in to top gear after xmas so to be at the top of our CL group and the EPL at this point if the year is a good thing.

Let's look at some stats then: points gained in the first 19 and the last 19 games of each season for the last 12 seasons.

2011/12
1st Half: 45
2nd Half: 44

2010/11
1st Half: 41
2nd Half: 39

2009/10
1st Half: 40
2nd Half: 45

2008/09
1st Half: 41
2nd Half: 49

2007/08
1st Half: 45
2nd Half: 42

2006/07
1st Half: 47
2nd Half: 42

2005/06
1st Half: 41
2nd Half: 42

2004/05
1st Half: 37
2nd Half: 40

2003/04
1st Half: 46
2nd Half: 29

2002/03
1st Half: 35
2nd Half: 48

2001/02
1st Half: 33
2nd Half: 44

2000/01
1st Half: 43
2nd Half: 37

6 times we got more points in the first half of the season, 6 times we got more points in the second. This "always stronger after Christmas" is just a total myth brought about by what happened in 2001/02 and 2002/03.

 

[marjen]

Ignoring whatever's been said about our pre/post-christmas form, one thing's for sure.

Michael Carrick rarely awakens until about november as a footballer. It's time to start firing up the engine, Michael. You dopey git.

 

[Fergus' son]

Well said, Simone.

I wish I could find a thread on here free from griping and tedious over-analysis. This place has all got very samey.

The season so far's been great fun. Top of the league(s) and some incredibly entertaining games to watch. Shame so few of you seem able to enjoy it.

Reading some of these threads, you'd be forgiven if you thought we were in Arsenal like status!

Yep, same as you Pogue, it's been one of the most enjoyable starts to a season that I can remember. And I'm confident SAF knows what he is doing in terms of readying his midfield for the important post new year run for the title.

Agree with these to the fullest!

Each to their own but it seems like every single thread I go into has walls and walls of text saying exactly the same things from the same people, Carrick is poor, Scholes shouldn't start, Anderson-Carrick-Cleverley, Anderson-Carrick-Cleverley and some joke about how Giggs and Scholes will start the next game!

I think the one thing that must be said about our current situation is that we need someone who can come in and play Carricks position when he isn't doing well, it's too much for a club like ours to have literally no cover for a position as vital as that. Aside from that I'm happy with everything, we've got the points we needed and other problems that have popped up can easily be addressed.

 

[Platato]

Let's look at some stats then: points gained in the first 19 and the last 19 games of each season for the last 12 seasons.

2011/12
1st Half: 45
2nd Half: 44

2010/11
1st Half: 41
2nd Half: 39

2009/10
1st Half: 40
2nd Half: 45

2008/09
1st Half: 41
2nd Half: 49

2007/08
1st Half: 45
2nd Half: 42

2006/07
1st Half: 47
2nd Half: 42

2005/06
1st Half: 41
2nd Half: 42

2004/05
1st Half: 37
2nd Half: 40

2003/04
1st Half: 46
2nd Half: 29

2002/03
1st Half: 35
2nd Half: 48

2001/02
1st Half: 33
2nd Half: 44

2000/01
1st Half: 43
2nd Half: 37

6 times we got more points in the first half of the season, 6 times we got more points in the second. This "always stronger after Christmas" is just a total myth brought about by what happened in 2001/02 and 2002/03.

Keeping this post in my pocket the next time I see that Xmas line. Good work mate.

 

[Varun]

Let's look at some stats then: points gained in the first 19 and the last 19 games of each season for the last 12 seasons.

2011/12
1st Half: 45
2nd Half: 44

2010/11
1st Half: 41
2nd Half: 39

2009/10
1st Half: 40
2nd Half: 45

2008/09
1st Half: 41
2nd Half: 49

2007/08
1st Half: 45
2nd Half: 42

2006/07
1st Half: 47
2nd Half: 42

2005/06
1st Half: 41
2nd Half: 42

2004/05
1st Half: 37
2nd Half: 40

2003/04
1st Half: 46
2nd Half: 29

2002/03
1st Half: 35
2nd Half: 48

2001/02
1st Half: 33
2nd Half: 44

2000/01
1st Half: 43
2nd Half: 37

6 times we got more points in the first half of the season, 6 times we got more points in the second. This "always stronger after Christmas" is just a total myth brought about by what happened in 2001/02 and 2002/03.

Impressive fact.

 

[finneh]

I feel sorry for Carrick when he's played in the wrong midfield combination - i.e. a duo with either Scholes or Giggs. We get overrun, and this is often cast as Carrick's fault for being unable to grab the game by the scruff of the neck. The reality is that he is given an inordinate amount of work to do, when played alongside either of our old stagers.

I took Liverpool away this season as an example. Carrick, absurdly, played alongside Giggs in a midfield two, and United were overrun as expected, somehow winning the game. Took a look at the heat maps from a website called Squawka and they were very interesting indeed. Giggs basically only occupied the left side of the pitch - his average position during the game made it seem like he was playing as a withdrawn left winger, as opposed to a central midfielder. That's tactical suicide in what is traditionally one of our hardest games of the season.

Against Villa, it was a combination of Scholes and Carrick. Scholes notched his usual good pass completion percentages (though he gave a few bad balls away), but he was completely useless when he didn't have the ball, and we were played through at will.

Carrick gets it in the neck for not being able to do the work of two players. It's simple stuff really - pick sensible midfield combinations. The entire fan base can seem to see that Carrick-Scholes/Giggs leaves us horribly open, so why are the coaching team seemingly oblivious?

The problem with Carrick is that he very rarely has a great game when the person next to him has a crap one. Carrick seems to go hiding when his midfield partner is having a stinker, which massively compounds the problem. This isn't just with Scholes, the partnership of Carrick/Fletcher was very poor for the same reason, if one played badly - they both played badly.

In my opinion you can't applaud Carrick for covering for Scholes when both have a great game, as was the case for 10+ games toward the back end of last season, without criticising him for disappearing when Scholes has a stinker.

The only way to remedy this problem is to either play with a midfield 3 all the time (which Fergie does not particularly like to do), or hope that Anderson/Cleverley become much more consistent. Because I am certain the next time Cleverley has an absolute stinker - this thread will be bumped because Carrick will have had one too.

6 times we got more points in the first half of the season, 6 times we got more points in the second. This "always stronger after Christmas" is just a total myth brought about by what happened in 2001/02 and 2002/03.

It's perpetuated by Fergie regularly saying it. Which I presume he does to pile the pressure on our rivals after Xmas.

 

[Siorac]

It's perpetuated by Fergie regularly saying it. Which I presume he does to pile the pressure on our rivals after Xmas.

Nowt wrong with that but fans shouldn't buy into it when discussing how we expect United to perform. We should be aware that it's a myth (or a mind games weapon) and don't pin our hopes on some huge spring surge.

 

[apotheosis]

Thing is a wide 442 doesn't lend itself to having a holding player, it's too wide, particularly with most teams playing really narrow. One player can have more responsibility than the other, but both players need to do their bit and simply put in a counter attacking move Scholes can't do that, when we're organized and have men back Scholes is usually ok because his positioning is pretty good, but when we're being countered he can't cover the ground and it's unrealistic that Carrick could do his work for him. Remember when Keane was loosing his legs, we brought in Fletcher alongside Scholes and Keane to counter this, not it's the same situation, or has been but we've been trying to get by with just Carrick.

The two other top teams that play in a similar set up to us are Real and Spurs. Real always have Alonso and Khedira/Diarra/Essien, there's 2 players who can contribute defensively. At spurs even when they had Modric he could do his bit, even if Parker took most reponsibility, and then they still occassionally stuck Modric wider to have another player like Sandro in there. Apart from Fletcher we don't have anyone who is defensively strong in the middle to partner Carrick, Clev and Ando work hard but positionally they can be exploited.

I can't think of a team that plays as wide as us and then has one player responsible for all the defensive work.

When we play more narrow, it's much more noticeable that Carrick/Fletcher are defensive shields as that set up allows them to do that and it reduces the amount of space teams have to counter us. The only space is out wide, which from our perspective is less threatening than straight through the middle.

Carrick's not perfect and he could do more but some of the expectations are unrealistic given no one else at a top club has to cover a whole midfield himself.

I agree Ash, good analysis!

 

[finneh]

Nowt wrong with that but fans shouldn't buy into it when discussing how we expect United to perform. We should be aware that it's a myth (or a mind games weapon) and don't pin our hopes on some huge spring surge.

Agreed. Although a lot of fans hang on everything he says as gospel, so it is no wonder it has become such an accepted "fact".

 

[Shimo]

The problem with Carrick is that he very rarely has a great game when the person next to him has a crap one. Carrick seems to go hiding when his midfield partner is having a stinker, which massively compounds the problem. This isn't just with Scholes, the partnership of Carrick/Fletcher was very poor for the same reason, if one played badly - they both played badly.

In my opinion you can't applaud Carrick for covering for Scholes when both have a great game, as was the case for 10+ games toward the back end of last season, without criticising him for disappearing when Scholes has a stinker.

The only way to remedy this problem is to either play with a midfield 3 all the time (which Fergie does not particularly like to do), or hope that Anderson/Cleverley become much more consistent. Because I am certain the next time Cleverley has an absolute stinker - this thread will be bumped because Carrick will have had one too.

So if Carrick's partner in CM is having a stinker, you think that if Carrick doesn't turn into superman in CM for the game it's his fault?

Carrick doesn't go into hiding when whoever he is playing is having a poor game - it's a bit unrealistic to expect him to just transform into this player that can make up for a 2nd player having a bad one. Typically he continues to play his game in addition to also trying to take up the slack - just seems to many that makes him fair game for not stepping up even more.

I do think these days playing him with Scholes or Giggs is a big risk - if either of them are not at the races, coupled with the fact that Carrick is not about energy - it does leave us at risk to be played through. At least with any of Cleverley/Ando - they can at least still chase players down and make the long sprints back when we lose the ball deep and teams counter.

 

[marjen]

It is a somewhat valid point, but I think it's more to do with the whole team than his midfield partner.

Carrick will play well if the team as a whole is having a good day - if we play badly, he sure as hell won't be the one that wakes us up and drags us back into the match. But that's not something we should ask of him, he's Michael Carrick, part postman part reliable midfielder, not Roy Keane.

This season though he's looked off the pace, I have to say. He needs to snap out of it.

 

[Feed Me]

Fact is, we know Carrick isn't going to step up and do the work of two men, if his partner has a stinker. In fairness, there aren't many that can.

The easy remedy is to pick sensible midfield combinations and reduce the chance of either midfielder having a stinker. I personally have greater faith in both Cleverley and Anderson to ensure we don't get overrun in midfield than I do with Scholes or Giggs anymore (especially in a two).

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I'd settle for him doing the work of one man. He didn't do that either vs Villa for he was just as poor as Scholes defensively

 

[#07]

I'd settle for him doing the work of one man. He didn't do that either vs Villa for he was just as poor as Scholes defensively

This.

 

[Ash_G]

Well we dominated the ball in both the first and second half, got it to our chief players meant to create again and again, they were the ones that did nothing with it. I didn't notice Scholes or Carrick do anything differently in the second half but our effectiveness and cutting edge when the attacking players actually woke up was noticeable. Had they played that way from the start we could probably have won the game a lot earlier.

 

[finneh]

So if Carrick's partner in CM is having a stinker, you think that if Carrick doesn't turn into superman in CM for the game it's his fault?

Carrick doesn't go into hiding when whoever he is playing is having a poor game - it's a bit unrealistic to expect him to just transform into this player that can make up for a 2nd player having a bad one. Typically he continues to play his game in addition to also trying to take up the slack - just seems to many that makes him fair game for not stepping up even more.

I do think these days playing him with Scholes or Giggs is a big risk - if either of them are not at the races, coupled with the fact that Carrick is not about energy - it does leave us at risk to be played through. At least with any of Cleverley/Ando - they can at least still chase players down and make the long sprints back when we lose the ball deep and teams counter.

I didn't say he had to do the job of two people or be superman. But if the partner he is with isn't doing his job, it doesn't mean Carrick can't still do the job of one person. He seems to go into his shell and just hide, which in that position (in fact in most positions) is unacceptable, it's as if the central midfield is a lost cause because Scholes has given the ball away 5 times and isn't running around.

I honestly think sometimes Fergie should just make a double substitution at half time in these situations and bring Cleverley/Fletcher/Anderson on.

I'd settle for him doing the work of one man. He didn't do that either vs Villa for he was just as poor as Scholes defensively

Exactly.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Well we dominated the ball in both the first and second half, got it to our chief players meant to create again and again, they were the ones that did nothing with it. I didn't notice Scholes or Carrick do anything differently in the second half....

Then you were not paying close attention. Scholes and Carrick spent about 50 minutes passing the ball slowly, left and right to double teamed wingers. In addition to being repeatedly by passed in midfield. Their tactic of trying to slowly play around a Villa defence that was narrow and packed in their box caused RVP for example and Rooney to be peripheral figures.

It was not until they finally started passing the ball down the middle also that we looked more dangerous. In fact the first time Scholes passed the ball down the middle we scored. It was Scholes and Carrick who had made our attack blunt.

 

[Ash_G]

Then you were not paying close attention. Scholes and Carrick spent about 50 minutes passing the ball slowly, left and right to double teamed wingers. In addition to being repeatedly by passed in midfield. Their tactic of trying to slowly play around a Villa defence that was narrow and packed in their box caused RVP for example and Rooney to be peripheral figures.

It was not until they finally started passing the ball down the middle also that we looked more dangerous. In fact the first time Scholes passed the ball down the middle we scored. It was Scholes and Carrick who had made our attack blunt.

Valencia and Young got the ball plenty of times where they had the time to do something 1 on 1, for their own reasons they didn't do anything with it. RVP didn't move around anything like how he did in the second half and Rooney didn't take enough responsibility to create centrally.

Scholes and Carrick can only work with the options given to them. Young offered nothing on his flank but a back pass and Valencia dawdled on the ball for ages in the first half refusing to take on his man. Once they got their kick up the arse and Young went off, RVP started roaming and Hernandez actually offering a threat behind we looked much better, but there was no change to how Scholes and Carrick played imo. Like I said if you have the ball and get it to your front players like we did you then look to them to do something with it even if it means one of them producing some magic, I think at a top club asking one of your 4 chief attackers to take some responsibility for the attack is reasonable in any game.

 

[finneh]

Valencia and Young got the ball plenty of times where they had the time to do something 1 on 1, for their own reasons they didn't do anything with it. RVP didn't move around anything like how he did in the second half and Rooney didn't take enough responsibility to create centrally.

Scholes and Carrick can only work with the options given to them. Young offered nothing on his flank but a back pass and Valencia dawdled on the ball for ages in the first half refusing to take on his man. Once they got their kick up the arse and Young went off, RVP started roaming and Hernandez actually offering a threat behind we looked much better, but there was no change to how Scholes and Carrick played imo. Like I said if you have the ball and get it to your front players like we did you then look to them to do something with it even if it means one of them producing some magic, I think at a top club asking one of your 4 chief attackers to take some responsibility for the attack is reasonable in any game.

I don't think anyone is suggesting our attackers were potent. On another day one of Scholes' 4-5 passes could have let to a couple of great chances. The fact remains however that the pair of them were inept defensively. If they did their jobs Villa wouldn't have been leading 2-0 and would not have done more with their terrible possession than we did with our far superior possession.

I'd much prefer to make changes at 0-0 and work from there, rather than our attackers having to salvage the game as has happened against several teams this season.