Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?

The main problem is that it's just incredibly hard to compare Carrick and Toure. One is a battering ram who is known for his box to box ability. The other is a more reserved midfielder who can control the game and dictate the tempo. When picking between either of them, it all depends on what you need to be honest.

What I will give Carrick is that he's improved to a level where this can be debated now. This time last year, this argument was non existent. Toure was obviously the much better player, and by quite a distance as well. Now, there's a debate to be had between the two at least.
 
cheesy said:
The main problem is that it's just incredibly hard to compare Carrick and Toure. One is a battering ram who is known for his box to box ability. The other is a more reserved midfielder who can control the game and dictate the tempo. When picking between either of them, it all depends on what you need to be honest.

What I will give Carrick is that he's improved to a level where this can be debated now. This time last year, this argument was non existent. Toure was obviously the much better player, and by quite a distance as well. Now, there's a debate to be had between the two at least.
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I don't see how you can debate who is better, they are completely different players, who are both very effective at what they do. As i said in a previous post it is like trying to compare Vieira and Petit, they are just too different.

The only debate worth having imo is which you would prefer in your team. For me, ideally it would be both as opposed to one or the other. Personally i have always been a fan of the all round midfielder as Robbo was and still is my favourite all time Utd player, and imo the best all round midfielder i have ever seen.
 
Ash_G said:
Tbh though mate I never disputed that what I said, which it sounds like you agree with, is that carrick is asked to do more for us then Parker is asked to do. As I said carrick has played within himself up to this last year but he has always been an excellent shield in front of the defence. However he's never got plaudits for that somewhat rightly so because we know he can and should do more then that, where as Parker has. Parker has/ is playing at his best and getting praise for it, carrick has been doing that role, maybe not in the same manner but as effectively for us all his time here and in much bigger games but rarely received credit because everyone is looking at what he was doing in an attacking sense. Like I said though I'm not putting down Parker or anything, I'd have him in our squad but all I was saying is that he's asked to do a lot less than carrick is.
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No you asked why there is greater expectation on Carrick than Parker. I said more is expected of Carrick because he is capable of more in the role he plays for us than he has been giving. The evidence for this is there for all to see this season.

Parker has given more in his role for West Ham, than Spurs require of him now.
The role Parker plays now for Spurs is all they need from him, and his fulfillment of that role has helped Spurs kick on to another level. That is why he is getting plaudits.

Carrick is not just a defensive shield, he is a deep lying playmeker who has not been fulfilling that role as he did in his first season, or as he has this season. That imo is the cause for any greater expectation upon him. It is based on what he has previously been able to provide in the same role in his first season, compared to what he had been providing up until this season.
 
Carrick wasn't a playmaker in his first season. If anything his job was to ensure that Scholes had the freedom to use his playmaking abilities as much as possible. It was a great partnership because of that. We haven't had as good a midfield combo since then.
 
Cina said:
Carrick wasn't a playmaker in his first season. If anything his job was to ensure that Scholes had the freedom to use his playmaking abilities as much as possible. It was a great partnership because of that. We haven't had as good a midfield combo since then.
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Carrick's not a playmaker now. Silva is a playmaker. Carrick is a deep lying playmaker like alonso. Im not being petty Cina, but the difference is Silva's job is to make the play in advanced areas, Carrick's is to start the play from deep areas, and he has always done that or should have.

Think back to his first season, we needed someone deep who could play the ball to feet to the likes of Ron, Roo and Tevez. That is why we signed him imo.

Carrick provided that in his first season and a little in his second, it was only when Ronaldo left and Carrick had some expectation to be more of a recognised playmaker, that he started being less adventurous.
 
Christ Cina, are you still arguing that Carrick is an average player?!
 
Cina said:
If you actually think Carrick is a playmaker like Alonso then there is really no point debating this.
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If there was one player in the world I would liken Carrick to it would be Alonso, especially during his Liverpool days when they were identically the same player. The other player I would think of is Busquets but he has a more limited role in the Barcelona team than Carrick now does in ours.
 
Cina said:
I haven't at any point in this thread said he's an average player you gimp.
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You've been arguing that he's not in the top bracket of Midfielders in Europe and by that I don't mean your Xavi and Iniesta's.


So bracket wise, where do you fit him in?

Top 10-20? 20-30? 31+?
 
askabob said:
If there was one player in the world I would liken Carrick to it would be Alonso, especially during his Liverpool days when they were identically the same player. The other player I would think of is Busquets but he has a more limited role in the Barcelona team than Carrick now does in ours.
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Exactly.

Interestingly enough, this is as good an answer as any to the Carrick hasn't featured for England argument. I always felt it was Alonso singing his own praises in a way as their role is often overlooked.

Xabi Alonso believes that Manchester United midfielder Michael Carrick could be a key figure behind Fabio Capello's rebuilding process with the England team.

Alonso spent five years plying his trade in the Premier League with Liverpool, winning the UEFA Champions League and FA Cup, before securing a lucrative move to La Liga giants Real Madrid last August.

The 28-year-old admits that he cannot quite put his finger on why England so dismally failed to make any impact at the World Cup in South Africa after the Three Lions were humbled 4-1 by Germany in the second round.

But he believes that Carrick could be the answer to getting the best of out his former team-mate, Steven Gerrard.

He told The Sunday Times: "Gerrard is a great player. He inspires and leads, he is very strong and is capable of making players around him raise their game, but he also needs players alongside to bring the best out of him.

"England missed a player like Carrick in the midfield, somebody who knows how to be in the right place at the right time.

"Gerrard gains a lot from having a player like Carrick as a partner, somebody who provides the back-up he needs to be free and bring his power to bear decisively in a game."

Carrick has continued to be overlooked by national coach Fabio Capello. The 28-year-old's last start came in the 3-1 warm-up friendly win against Mexico, but he failed to make an appearance in South Africa.


Alonso believes that there needs to be a change in emphasis regarding the national team, intimating that Capello needs to concentrate more on gelling a 'blend of styles together' in the England team.

"For me, it is important to have players who complement one another. Sometimes the 11 best do not make the best 11," he said.

"The way I understand the game, you also need someone who delivers simple, short passes, even if they seem innocuous at the time. For me that is the sort of player that's been missing from the side.

"The profile of the English player is very direct. Direct football is great but you have to know how to combine that with an understanding of the need to associate with other players, with knowing how to pass and pass and keep the ball, how to change the rhythm of a game as circumstances demand."
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apotheosis said:
Carrick's not a playmaker now. Silva is a playmaker. Carrick is a deep lying playmaker like alonso. Im not being petty Cina, but the difference is Silva's job is to make the play in advanced areas, Carrick's is to start the play from deep areas, and he has always done that or should have.

Think back to his first season, we needed someone deep who could play the ball to feet to the likes of Ron, Roo and Tevez. That is why we signed him imo.

Carrick provided that in his first season and a little in his second, it was only when Ronaldo left and Carrick had some expectation to be more of a recognised playmaker, that he started being less adventurous.
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Yep. Ronaldo leaving impacted our team dynamics in a huge way.
 
askabob said:
If there was one player in the world I would liken Carrick to it would be Alonso, especially during his Liverpool days when they were identically the same player. The other player I would think of is Busquets but he has a more limited role in the Barcelona team than Carrick now does in ours.
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Busquets is a good comparison to Carrick (the main one I've made). But Alonso & Carrick are pretty different players, they just both play deep.

Pexbo said:
You've been arguing that he's not in the top bracket of Midfielders in Europe and by that I don't mean your Xavi and Iniesta's.


So bracket wise, where do you fit him in?

Top 10-20? 20-30? 31+?
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So because I don't think he's as good as some of the very best midfielders in the worldI think he's average? Right...

I'd have him in the top 5 in the PL, possibly top 3 right now. In the world? Hard to judge, somewhere between 10 - 15 right now. I constantly say (through his bad form too) that he's a really good midfielder, just not at the level some perceive him to be.

I mean all I've said here is that's he's not a playmaker, that's nothing to do with his quality as a midfielder, it's just not the type of midfielder he is, for me anyway.
 
Cina said:
Busquets is a good comparison to Carrick (the main one I've made). But Alonso & Carrick are pretty different players, they just both play deep.



So because I don't think he's as good as some of the very best midfielders in the worldI think he's average? Right...

I'd have him in the top 5 in the PL, possibly top 3 right now. In the world? Hard to judge, somewhere between 10 - 15 right now. I constantly say (through his bad form too) that he's a really good midfielder, just not at the level some perceive him to be.

I mean all I've said here is that's he's not a playmaker, that's nothing to do with his quality as a midfielder, it's just not the type of midfielder he is, for me anyway.
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That's fair enough. It's exactly where I put him to be honest, maybe just in the Top 10, maybe just outside. I don't think there is a better centremid in the premiership right now though.
 
Pexbo said:
That's fair enough. It's exactly where I put him to be honest, maybe just in the Top 10, maybe just outside. I don't think there is a better centremid in the premiership right now though.
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On current form, only Modric. And that's good enough for me.

Christ, what a pairing they would be. One can only dream.
 
Cina said:
On current form, only Modric. And that's good enough for me.

Christ, what a pairing they would be. One can only dream.
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Carrick

Cleverley Modric​


........is something I have wet dreams about. The pass and move there would be mouthwatering, add Welbeck to the mix just in behind Rooney and Nani on a free role on either wing.....


I just came.


and again.
 
As far as traditional midfielders go, I would only place Fabregas, Xavi, Iniesta, Schweinsteiger, and maybe one or two others above him.

I think Carrick is on the same level as Modric, Yaya, Alonso, et al

Wouldn't swap any of them for him though! I love the man
 
apotheosis said:
No you asked why there is greater expectation on Carrick than Parker. I said more is expected of Carrick because he is capable of more in the role he plays for us than he has been giving. The evidence for this is there for all to see this season.

Parker has given more in his role for West Ham, than Spurs require of him now.
The role Parker plays now for Spurs is all they need from him, and his fulfillment of that role has helped Spurs kick on to another level. That is why he is getting plaudits.

Carrick is not just a defensive shield, he is a deep lying playmeker who has not been fulfilling that role as he did in his first season, or as he has this season. That imo is the cause for any greater expectation upon him. It is based on what he has previously been able to provide in the same role in his first season, compared to what he had been providing up until this season.
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I thought that was what I said, that they had different expectation levels on them. Also though as I said carrick has performed the shielding role for us very well during his time here, regardless of what else he could have or should have been doing going forward, and has never really received recognition for it. Parker though is doing that same role, in a much more noticeable way and being raved about. That's my other point. I'm pretty confident carrick could have come in for England and been the shield and done it to as good as Parker has, in a different way but as effective, yet as I said because no one is really looking at what's he doing defensively it doesn't get acknowledged and so he gets no praise for it. Carrick deserved criticism for not taking more responsibility for creating etc which he got, however I don't think he was ever praised for the amount of protection he was providing nor do I think it's ever been acknowledged that aside from when playing with fletch and maybe giggs, he has had to pick up a lot of extra work covering for his midfield partner.
 
askabob said:
If there was one player in the world I would liken Carrick to it would be Alonso, especially during his Liverpool days when they were identically the same player. The other player I would think of is Busquets but he has a more limited role in the Barcelona team than Carrick now does in ours.
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if you think about it that way, you can see how is departure from anfield really made a difference. i always felt that was a huge mistake for them. breaking up that trio between him gerrard and torres effectively lessened their threat. He was crucial in terms of keeping things ticking. Once you take out the metronome, the musicians get out of sync and we all know what that looks like.

I think if Carrick was out for a considerable amount of time, we'd definitely feel it. The amount of counterattacks he prevents with a quick interception is actually absurd.
 
apotheosis said:
Carrick's not a playmaker now. Silva is a playmaker. Carrick is a deep lying playmaker like alonso. Im not being petty Cina, but the difference is Silva's job is to make the play in advanced areas, Carrick's is to start the play from deep areas, and he has always done that or should have.

Think back to his first season, we needed someone deep who could play the ball to feet to the likes of Ron, Roo and Tevez. That is why we signed him imo.

Carrick provided that in his first season and a little in his second, it was only when Ronaldo left and Carrick had some expectation to be more of a recognised playmaker, that he started being less adventurous.
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TBF its in his second season that Carrick was really the embodiment of a deep lying player maker like he ahd been at Spurs.
 
No Carrick in Pearce's England squad... the midfielders are

Midfielders: Gareth Barry (Manchester City), Tom Cleverley (Manchester United), Stewart Downing (Liverpool), Adam Johnson (Manchester City), Steven Gerrard (Liverpool), James Milner (Manchester City), Scott Parker (Tottenham Hotspur), Ashley Young (Manchester United), Theo Walcott (Arsenal)
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So place for the most in-form English Central Midfielder (along with Scott Parker)... but Steward fecking Downing gets a spot? Ridiculous.
 
It's Stuart Pearce, to be fair. I'm surprised he didn't promote Mancienne and plaster infront of a news conference as his captain.

Looking forward to seeing Cleverley at right wing and all. That won't be a waste of his abilities, even if he's never played there before.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
TBF its in his second season that Carrick was really the embodiment of a deep lying player maker like he ahd been at Spurs.
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I disagree Chief. For me before we bought Carrick i felt we needed someone to get the ball quickly, to feet, up to the frontmen. When we bought Carrick that happened straight away imo, and we subsequently won the title that year.

I know we had Scholes back as well that season which obviously helped, but i felt it was Carrick who most provided what we had lacked the year before.
 
KingEric7 said:
It's Stuart Pearce, to be fair. I'm surprised he didn't promote Mancienne and plaster infront of a news conference as his captain.

Looking forward to seeing Cleverley at right wing and all. That won't be a waste of his abilities, even if he's never played there before.
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I think he has played there before iirc. Im sure Pearce inexplicably played him there at the under 21 championship last year. Oh god Mancienne, him and henderson were an absolute disaster for the under 21's in that tournament. Never have i seen a midfield pairing look so clueless, more Pearce's fault than theirs though tbf, especially when he had Rodwell and TC on the bench. :confused:

Pearce not picking Carrick for this match is a disgrace. I don't rate Pearce as a coach at all, and this does not fill me with optimism for what may happen at the Euro's. He is picking a half fit Gerrard, and TC on the back of no form whatsoever and leaves out the most cultured and in form english CM we have atm. :wenger:
 
Tbf criticism for not picking Carrick shouldn't really be over picking Gerrard or Downing in his place.

Gerrard is proven and Downing is a winger (although not very proven). It is strange however that our very own Cleverely is chosen ahead of Carrick, seeing as Tom is just back from a long injury break, and only had a few games for us before that. Carrick, on the other hand, is the most important midfielder in the same midfield Cleverely plays, and has been consistent all year long.
 
apotheosis said:
I think he has played there before iirc. Im sure Pearce inexplicably played him there at the under 21 championship last year. Oh god Mancienne, him and henderson were an absolute disaster for the under 21's in that tournament. Never have i seen a midfield pairing look so clueless, more Pearce's fault than theirs though tbf, especially when he had Rodwell and TC on the bench. :confused:

Pearce not picking Carrick for this match is a disgrace. I don't rate Pearce as a coach at all, and this does not fill me with optimism for what may happen at the Euro's. He is picking a half fit Gerrard, and TC on the back of no form whatsoever and leaves out the most cultured and in form english CM we have atm. :wenger:
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Aye, that's what I was getting at. It was baffling last summer when he played Cleverley on the right of midfield. I still hold a huge grudge over his management of the U21s during that tournament. :lol:

Twitter tells me that Stuart Pearce just claimed he's around for the Euros if the FA need him to take charge. Did he say that with a straight face?
 
Absolutely mental. Pearce is a fecking Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime.
 
KingEric7 said:
Aye, that's what I was getting at. It was baffling last summer when he played Cleverley on the right of midfield. I still hold a huge grudge over his management of the U21s during that tournament. :lol:

Twitter tells me that Stuart Pearce just claimed he's around for the Euros if the FA need him to take charge. Did he say that with a straight face?
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Thats only because no-one with any sense will give him a proper job. Why the feck would anyone want him in charge of the first team? Does the FA not think England fans have suffered enough?
 
apotheosis said:
I disagree Chief. For me before we bought Carrick i felt we needed someone to get the ball quickly, to feet, up to the frontmen. When we bought Carrick that happened straight away imo, and we subsequently won the title that year.
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In his first season with us he was an inferior version of what he was at Spurs and totally played second fiddle to Scholes and within himself. It's in his second season that the form he had at Spurs was reproduced all season long. At Spurs he was their Xabi Alonso. That form in his second year hear was one of the biggest reasons why we reached the champion league final and won.
 
apotheosis said:
I don't see how you can debate who is better, they are completely different players, who are both very effective at what they do. As i said in a previous post it is like trying to compare Vieira and Petit, they are just too different.

The only debate worth having imo is which you would prefer in your team. For me, ideally it would be both as opposed to one or the other. Personally i have always been a fan of the all round midfielder as Robbo was and still is my favourite all time Utd player, and imo the best all round midfielder i have ever seen.
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Two players can be compared when they have sligtly different roles for their team, but essentially still play in the same position. This is the case here. Even if Toure is known for bursting forward, he's still essentially a centre mid, and has been since going to Man City.

You compare them by measuring how influential each of them are to their team, especially when they're playing teams that are in a similar league position as well.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
In his first season with us he was an inferior version of what he was at Spurs and totally played second fiddle to Scholes and within himself. It's in his second season that the form he had at Spurs was reproduced all season long. At Spurs he was their Xabi Alonso. That form in his second year hear was one of the biggest reasons why we reached the champion league final and won.
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I'd argue that Carrick was the sole reason we saw the best of Paul Scholes.

For the first time in his career, Scholes was able to play alongside a player who complimented his two touch game and it brought the best out of him. He might have played "second fiddle" to him but it's because Scholes had a second fiddle to play with he was able to be as fecking amazing as he was.

Before we go into Scholes previous midfield partner's I'd like to point a few things out.

1. I'm not saying Carrick is better than Keane.

2. Keane and Carrick are incomparable. I'm also not saying Carrick - Scholes is a better partnership that Scholes - Keane, merely that Carrick suited the more mature style of Scholes play. On the flip side, Keane was a better midfielder than Carrick is and the partnership was probably better as Keane still complimented Scholes' attacking instincts at the time.

3. When Scholes played with Veron he was dropped off Van Nistelrooy in a second striker position so we never really saw what that was capable of.
 
Pexbo said:
I'd argue that Carrick was the sole reason we saw the best of Paul Scholes.
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Well for me its a plain non starter as a notion. For Scholes return to form had zero to do with Carrick. It had rather evrything to do with Scholes rediscovering his touch after that period out with the ye problem that had been preceded by a huge slump in form.

That is why even when Carrick lost his form it made no difference to the form of Scholes.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Well for me its a plain non starter as a notion. For Scholes return to form had zero to do with Carrick. It had rather evrything to do with Scholes rediscovering his touch after that period out with the ye problem that had been preceded by a huge slump in form.

That is why even when Carrick lost his form it made no difference to the form of Scholes.
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We'll have to disagree on this one.

He finally had a midfielder to play with after playing with Knackered Knees Keane, O'Shea, Smith and a young (and not particularly good) Fletcher for the previous 3 seasons.

If you think Scholes sudden burst of form in that season was down to him "rediscovering his touch" and not having a midfielder who could cover space, find space, offer himself to pass to and find Scholes with his passing while letting Scholes run the show.... you're crazy.
 
Absolute joke that he's not in the squad but completely expected. Once again England showing how clueless they are. Any other country and a player of carricks type and ability not to mention form would be one of the automatics in the squad.
 
Ash_G said:
Absolute joke that he's not in the squad but completely expected. Once again England showing how clueless they are. Any other country and a player of carricks type and ability not to mention form would be one of the automatics in the squad.
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Wait... he's not in the squad?!!?!

And there I was arguing he wasn't picked in earlier years because of his form :o
 
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