Yeah because trophies that squads have one are a solid basis for how good a player is
Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?
- Thread starter Carl
- Start date
I don't agree with that logic at all. Nor do I believe Carrick is one of the best midfielders in the world. As has been mentioned, he has been overlooked by three England managers now.
If you said to a non United fan that Carrick is one of the best MF players in the world I think they would laugh in your face.
Like I said, he was a first choice in midfield for all those seasons and remains so now.
He played a minimum of 43 games a season in every one of those seasons and only Evra played more. It's quite clear that whether you recognise it or not, he has been a pivotal figure in Ferguson's plans and remains so.
So don't try and pass off his achievements as if it's the same as a fringe squad player picking up trophies. He's played a key part in this team for 5 years now and you have to give him some credit in that success whether you understand how important he is to the team or not.
Indeed.
He's a very good midfielder and definitely underrated but saying he's one of the best midfielders in the world is total knee-jerk because of his good run of form in the last 2 to 3 months. This place just goes from one extreme to the other. Crazy
This thread proves the point in my previous post
Because he had 2 players consistently in the Top 10 in the world ahead of him, they put Scholes out of Centre Mid in the England team for christ sake! Since when has an England Manager's opinion meant anything?!
On top of all this, just look at our consistency in Europe over the last few years, he misses two key games in our group stage and it's highlighted just how much we need him as we lose both and go out in the group stages.
One day, it won't need him consistently playing Hollywood passes, driving runs, scoring goals or making crunching tackles for people to see how good he is. It's a shame people need players to do "obvious" things to be rated.
Is disputing whether he is one of the best midfielders in the world now tantamount to denying him any credit in our success?
This is a deeply confusing conversation.
Never for a second said he wasn't important to this team, but our midfield has been lacking in those 5 years in contrast to the attack and defense we've been blessed with, so it's not exactly a massive feat to be one of our best players there. It doesn't mean he's been one of the worlds best midfielders though, at all.
I can't believe people are suggesting he is. Busquests is the best in the world at that sort of role and as good as Carrick has been lately he's still a mile behind him. We've already named 10 obvious players who are better than him.
As usual the truth is in the middle, IMO. He has been nowhere near as bad as some would have you believe, but, by the same token, he isn't one of the best in the world.
Some people are ridiculously harsh on him when he doesn't perform, so the other side go to the opposite extreme when he plays well.
If we had Biscuits in our team I dont think you would hear people (including me) banging on about the need to buy as centre mid every time the transfer window opens.
It means more than yours, that's for sure. And mine.
Yeah, 12 months ago people wanted him sold and now he's one of the best players in the world
For the record, I've always defended him as a player, through his poor form and all, but Christ, people need to have some perspective here. He has never nor will ever be one of the best midfielders in the world.
2.5 years
Check the wording: "he wasn't a really good player".
Is there people that really think 09-11 he was a really good player?
To be fair to Carrick, he can hold his own vs quite a few of your ten mentioned players.
And no team as successful as we have been the last 5 years can achieve that success with a midfield found lacking!
Well duh seeing as he genuinely is one of the worlds greatest midfielders. Strange thing to say
You think Busquests would be half the player he is if he was in a team which left him exposed half as much as one that contains Xavi and Iniesta? A player like Carrick would flourish in that team. Luckily for us, that will never happen.
Instead of Carrick I mean. Ergo, Carrick is not at that level.
I'd say right now he is one of the best in the world in his position.
I wonder what level Essien will get back to now he is back to fitness. Because a couple of years back Id definitely have put him above Carrick as well. And I suspect he still has it in him to get back to that level.
a) they'd cost at least 5-6 times as much as Carrick
b) their club wouldn't sell
c) they wouldn't come
Carrick and Barry play a very similar role, so they would both "fit the bill". Was Barry "happy" at Villa? The first interest shown in him from a half decent team (Liverpool) and he was desperate to leave.
Basically you're talking rubbish. Had SAF rated Barry over Carrick, he would've bought him, certainly, especially as he loves a buy to piss the scousers off.
Alright, fine, let's accept the proposition that Ferguson had a straight choice between Carrick and Barry, and he selected Barry. All this means is that Ferguson thought Carrick superior to Barry in 2006. Capello is another well respected football manager, in the same bracket as Ferguson in that regard, and since he took over in 2008, he's consistently selected Gareth Barry ahead of Carrick, I think his opinion should certainly be taken into account when looking at this, given his track record.
I should be clear, I'm not seeking to prove that Barry is a better player than Carrick, I actually think Carrick is better than him, but there's an entirely
unfair picture that's been built up here - the picture that Carrick pisses all over virtually every midfield in Europe, but gets over looked because of two poor games. I'd like to know how anyone can square him having such an exceptional level of quality with Capello picking Gareth Barry ahead of him. Is Gareth Barry equally good, is he of a similar level and better suited to the England side, or is Capello just a moron?
Exactly.
The logic in this thread is bizarre.
Yes, he has been a key player to us, yes we have been more successful in the last 5 years than any team but Barcelona and yes of course Carrick has to be credited with that but he is not one of the best Midfielders in the world.
I'm pretty sure players are rated by YouTube views and Football Manager Value these days rather than actual worth to a successful team.
Lacking in contrast to our attack & defense, not in general. We have a good midfield, I haven't said otherwise.
Hold his own? What does that mean. Are you saying he's as good as them?
Erm yes, I still think he would be the same player he is right now
Like, what the feck? He's brilliant. The Xavi/Iniesta theory is bollocks really.
The centre midfield is part of both the defence and attack. Having Carrick in front of the back four usually makes the back four's job a lot easier.
Yes, by holding his own I say he's at the same level as some of them.
I'm well aware of that. Still doesn't argue against the fact that we've had better defenders than midfielders for the last 5 years.
Who? I want names.
I remember an Italian article calling him magnificent. Post 2009 Inter Quarters/ semis.
Alonso and Toure for starters
We've had a couple of defenders that have been consistently world class.
We had 2-3 midfielders who have been world class at times. Carrick included.
Carrick has been in a team that has destroyed various sides, Roma, Milan, Arsenal, Chelsea and he was in a side that beat Barcelona over two legs in 2008 and yet its still only two games that people draw back to (The two UCL Finals against arguably the best midfield ever) to show that he was "found out".
It really is criminal how people under-rate him but I think it says a lot more about their knowledge of football at any level past a basic understanding.
Even when he wasn't the stand out player like he was this season, Ferguson "stuck by him" because he knew how much protection he offered the "world class defense" that is credited against his achievements.
It really is criminal how people under-rate him but I think it says a lot more about their knowledge of football at any level past a basic understanding.
Even when he wasn't the stand out player like he was this season, Ferguson "stuck by him" because he knew how much protection he offered the "world class defense" that is credited against his achievements.
It's not only the protection job he does well, he is brilliant at swtching the game from a defensive to attacking play.
No way.
Yeah at times he has been excellent, never consistently world class though.
He is definitely much better than Barry and in answer to an earlier question, it does baffle me that Capello evidently felt differently. Capello, an Italian.
Dunno whether you are guilty of underrating Carrick or overrating those two.
As well as his positioning off the ball always offers his team mates a simple pass out of trouble, which he usually follows up with a similarly simple (but right) pass. That is often the difference between
A. Allowing us to retain possession and build an attack.
or
B. Find ourselves open to a counter attack and our defence exposed.
Can anyone remember our poor form early on in the season and last season for that matter? How about the goals we were conceding? The majority of them were quick counter attacks after our players had been pressured off the ball.
Now, I wonder who was missing during these spells?
Even when he plays shit, he never fails to protect the back 4, which is a unique quality he has in our squad. However when he plays like that he puts all the onus on his partner to carry the rest of the midfield.
So he doesn't get picked for England, while Parker and Barry do, and he is one of the best MF players in the world? Three England coaches don't have any knowledge of football "past a basic understanding?" Or could it be that you are overrating him? Which is more likely?
Out of interest, how many club player of the year awards has he won? What personal accolades as he garnered over the years? How many votes did "one of the best MF players in the world" garner in the last few Ballon d'Or awards?
1. How many has the likes of Busquets, Silva, Toure and Alonso won?
2. How many has the likes of Busquets, Toure, Silva and Schweinstiger had?
3. How many votes did the likes of Toure, Silva, Fabregas, Modric and Alonso recieve?
Don't answer a question with a question.
Carrick is a good player no doubt and this season he's been excellent so far. But let's not go about rewriting the last couple years where he's really struggled with consistency, and at times been downright poor. This season there has been a shift though. He seems to be taking more responsibility and he looks at much more ease than he has in recent years.