Are you thinking of Iran and Pakistan? Because I can understand their reluctance to accept refugees when they both already have millions of Afghans in their countries as refugees.
Afghanistan
- Thread starter Sherzad
- Start date
You ever read about Daniel Ellsberg? Basically I think the answer is either "never" or "almost immediately" depending on how insane/stupid the 2 sets of leaders happen to be at the time.
https://www.democracynow.org/2021/6/14/daniel_ellsberg_leak_us_nuclear_plans
I think nuclear war (whether accidental or intentional) is probably still as likely, or perhaps even more so, to kill us all than climate change is. It's a shame there's no real drive to decommission nuclear weapons in most countries any more, people really don't understand the risks I don't think.
You shouldn't talk about things you have no knowledge of. The neighbours of Afghanistan have welcomed refugees and have suffered immensely in terms of resources and in general.
Just tuned into CNN for the noon hour EDT
Zero mention of #Afghanistan. They're too busy with Covid, Hurricen Henri, and promoting the #WeLoveNYC concert
An estimation of 10,000 or more Americans stuck in a terror nation created by the USA and they're being abandoned by the media and people in power
The statement by NY Times writer Maggie Haberman this past Monday about how she didn't think people will care about Afghanistan might be correct
Zero mention of #Afghanistan. They're too busy with Covid, Hurricen Henri, and promoting the #WeLoveNYC concert
An estimation of 10,000 or more Americans stuck in a terror nation created by the USA and they're being abandoned by the media and people in power
The statement by NY Times writer Maggie Haberman this past Monday about how she didn't think people will care about Afghanistan might be correct
I didn't know the UK had built a wall? The UK should be accepting more people though as should the US. The whole of Europe needs to pitch in.
Yea agree. This should also be said though, a lot of times people in western countries say that neighboring countries should take in refugees when they've been responsible for the mess created.
Pakistan has taken in a lot of refugees over the years, millions. Wouldn't mind more coming though since they are valuable members of the society.
BBC News - Greece erects fence at Turkey border amid warnings of Afghan migrant surge
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58289893
I was actually referring to Greece and other reports I'd seen. Perhaps my wording was off.
As mentioned, the ones that created this mess should accept the refugees, proportional to their involvement there.
Not as bad as Austria though
I think the countries involved in the conflict should accept.. There's quite a few when you look at it.
What has happened in Austria?
They started sending Afghans back to Afghanistan last week saying that it's safe.
Can see some European governments lining up to legitimize the Taliban if it means they can justify this.
Bloody hell. Outrageous. There's a number of European countries that will undoubtedly hide behind the US/UK on this and not make any attempt to help.
1000% bro. After 40 odd years of conflict I think everyone just wants stability at the expense of human rights.
The human rights of another country is never a priority for any other country. Why would the rights of afghan girls be important to anybody except for them? How does it benefit anyone to waste the resources of their own country for another country?
If hunan rights was of interest and all that then European countries must not recognise the governments of North Korea, China, and Syria amongst others.
A stable Afghanistan ruled fairly by a government that has its interests at heart is the best solution for everybody.
No argument from me bro.
After more than an hour on CNN from noon EDT, they continued coverage of Afghanistan.
For the past couple hours it's been mostly bad news. Americans are being harassed and attacked at checkpoints. The US military are working on 'alternative routes'.
If anyone has mistaken me for a leftie pacifist, you'd be gravely incorrect
Biden on Monday
Quote:
"As we carry out this departure, we have made it clear to the Taliban: If they attack our personnel or disrupt our operation, the U.S. presence will be swift and the response will be swift and forceful. We will defend our people with devastating force if necessary."
The news needs to confront the Biden on allowing this from going on any further before we have a way worse situation than the Iranian Hostage Crisis.
The *US military needs to go and extract the people left behind and unable to get to the airport. The Taliban leadership have been given a week to cooperate and they're not able or willing to allow a peaceful exit.
*The USA leadership screwed up this entire Afghan thing. It shouldn't be up to the Allied forces to go beyond the airport walls.
For the past couple hours it's been mostly bad news. Americans are being harassed and attacked at checkpoints. The US military are working on 'alternative routes'.
If anyone has mistaken me for a leftie pacifist, you'd be gravely incorrect
Biden on Monday
Quote:
"As we carry out this departure, we have made it clear to the Taliban: If they attack our personnel or disrupt our operation, the U.S. presence will be swift and the response will be swift and forceful. We will defend our people with devastating force if necessary."
The news needs to confront the Biden on allowing this from going on any further before we have a way worse situation than the Iranian Hostage Crisis.
The *US military needs to go and extract the people left behind and unable to get to the airport. The Taliban leadership have been given a week to cooperate and they're not able or willing to allow a peaceful exit.
*The USA leadership screwed up this entire Afghan thing. It shouldn't be up to the Allied forces to go beyond the airport walls.
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Unsurprisingly India has said they will prioritise Hindus and Sikh refugees.
The first bit of this in particular is good on why the method of withdrawal was particularly bad in terms of cutting off hopes of any significant Afghan army hold out. Biden should keep getting challenged on how recklessly he's executed this even from those who agree with the withdrawal decision overall.
His main point is that troops should've been left in Afghanistan indefinitely, much as they have in Korea, wasn't a particularly realistic option for the US given that the past 3 Presidents ran on ending the war. What he didn't address is if the Afghan Army folded like a deck of cards within weeks after 20 years, then how long should foreign troops remain in country in the hope the Afghan would eventually be strong enough to do it by themselves.
On the comparison with Korea I think he's just making a counter point that it's quite normal for troops to stay for long periods of time post conflict but with an increasingly diminished presence and the national government taking over more and more responsibility. I'm not sure that many westerners are aware of that. On the politics of it, I think he'd argue that candidates shouldn't have run with the promise of leaving (he's quite consistent on how good governing shouldn't always be doing the popular thing).
The first bit of the video was I think the most compelling. On how quickly they folded - the removal of everyone so quickly, including the contractors, and without telling local commanders, obviously left the few Afghan soldiers that wanted to fight pretty hamstrung and so accelerated the collapse of the government. I think it was inevitable anyway, because the corruption had been left unchecked for too long and so it wasn't a government anyone had any loyalty to anyway, but if it had been able to hold out for longer that may at least have allowed other nations to realise where things were headed and get their evacuation and asylum plans drawn up. Interestingly I see France were one of the only nations who were ahead of the game on this and withdrew people in May.
So this rebellion in the Panshir valley is legit? In the last couple of days I saw some sources report on this but I didn't know those sources and was waiting for Western media to report it and now they have. The Taliban say they are sending fighters to the valley.
There is no rebellion in Panshir, as it wasn't taken by the Taliban in the first place. Anti-Taliban Afghans have also apparently retaken several districts in Baghlan Province as well, although the Taliban have apparently dispatched people to attempt to retake it.
Review of the Biden Presser
4 pm EDT
According to President Biden
11,000 people were evacuated over the past 36 hr
30,000 out over the past week
Credit to the Dept of State, US military, veteran groups, and the international community even though Biden repeatedly correcting himself throughout the press conference by saying 'i' and 'I'm' then quickly saying We and We're. Very annoying because the dumbass is reading a teleprompter.
Pres Biden also expressed concerns of ISIS groups that may try to interrupt the evacuation
------
CNN reporter Sam Kiley now reporting that all the Kabul airport gates have been closed for some time. The only gate to the airport is the British gate (4:45 pm EDT)
4 pm EDT
According to President Biden
11,000 people were evacuated over the past 36 hr
30,000 out over the past week
Credit to the Dept of State, US military, veteran groups, and the international community even though Biden repeatedly correcting himself throughout the press conference by saying 'i' and 'I'm' then quickly saying We and We're. Very annoying because the dumbass is reading a teleprompter.
Pres Biden also expressed concerns of ISIS groups that may try to interrupt the evacuation
------
CNN reporter Sam Kiley now reporting that all the Kabul airport gates have been closed for some time. The only gate to the airport is the British gate (4:45 pm EDT)
I've seen some cheering on for the northern alliance on some websites in comments. What's so special about other warlords defeating current warlords ?
I would give a few weeks for propaganda on both sides settle down. I read various conflicting stories from both sides. There are stories i read from quora that the talibans arent stopping people from getting to the airport, they even set up checkpoints to see who got pass and let them through, while the one stopping them was actually the US own forces holding the airport.
But they're just that, stories. Doesnt take much for reporters to claim an unidentified sources, post a pic and create all sort of narratives (from both sides). We probably dont see much from the taliban sides but a friend of mine read aljazeera in arabic and they paint a rather different optics says he.
One thing for sure it's 21st century. Any incidents can be captured live on smartphones. With satellites, and many expat still lives in Afghanista. We're bound to find out if there's mass killings or any other extreme brutalities from amateur video.
I dont think the taliban are nice and kind. I just think that they're not stupid and at this moment will exercise restraints at least for the time being. Whether they remain open and moderate going forward only time will tell. It's not in their best interest to shake things up for the time being. They have the country won. Their biggest worry should be going forward, they're already undisputed de facto sole power in Afghanistan
Regarding refugees, i understand why it's a big decision not to accept Afghanistan refugees as it's a permanent commitment with huge strain on economics and culture. How are they going to house them, assimilate them, finance them. It's not like you can give quota, once a nation declare they accept and give nationality to Afghanistan refugees the rest will follow and at one point they'll have to send them back, whatever the excuse given.
But they're just that, stories. Doesnt take much for reporters to claim an unidentified sources, post a pic and create all sort of narratives (from both sides). We probably dont see much from the taliban sides but a friend of mine read aljazeera in arabic and they paint a rather different optics says he.
One thing for sure it's 21st century. Any incidents can be captured live on smartphones. With satellites, and many expat still lives in Afghanista. We're bound to find out if there's mass killings or any other extreme brutalities from amateur video.
I dont think the taliban are nice and kind. I just think that they're not stupid and at this moment will exercise restraints at least for the time being. Whether they remain open and moderate going forward only time will tell. It's not in their best interest to shake things up for the time being. They have the country won. Their biggest worry should be going forward, they're already undisputed de facto sole power in Afghanistan
Regarding refugees, i understand why it's a big decision not to accept Afghanistan refugees as it's a permanent commitment with huge strain on economics and culture. How are they going to house them, assimilate them, finance them. It's not like you can give quota, once a nation declare they accept and give nationality to Afghanistan refugees the rest will follow and at one point they'll have to send them back, whatever the excuse given.
Considering the dire state of Burmese refugees in India, its a minor miracle they are even accepting anyone new, while a majority of the population is still unvaccinated from COVID.
We have 4 million Afghan refugees and have had Afghan refugees for 40 years.
We get to build a wall. If we'd built a wall 40 years ago we wouldn't have had 70,000 dead Pakistanis.
I entirely agree with you. If they couldn't do it in 20 years they have no chance at all once they decided to end the occupation.
This is not the same situation as in Korea.
Biden had no choice and did the only thing he could do. Could the Americans have handled it better? Of course they can but he is only Commander in Chief by name and if anyone is to blame it's the military. Be it their own intelligence or any other agencies.
Unless he completely refused to accept their advice.
The advice from the top brass was to stay.
I read on Quora that they were being paid 2 dollars a day.
You didn't 'end the war', you lost it. Forget al qaeda for a moment, the US, UK and Nato aim for most of the years they were in Afghanistan was to defeat the Taliban, and they failed, the Taliban won.
Please don't think I'm anti-American, I'm not, but I do think it's important to admit what happened, simply because if the US has falsely convinced itself that 'America always wins' then it is more likely to make bad decisions in the future.
I understand.
However, they really don't need to forecast their bias/racism to the world.
I don't think its an issue of winning or losing. The goal of going into Afghanistan (expelling AQ and getting Bin Ladin) was accomplished 19 and 10 years ago respectively, so there was nothing else to accomplish other than transitioning into an advise and assist NATO mission, which is what its been for the past decade. If after 20 years, the Afghan government isn't able to deal with corruption, pay its troops a livable wage so that they fight for the nation when needed, create national unity to get all Afghans around a political process, then that is not a loss of foreign forces supporting them. The US could've easily stayed in Afghanistan for another 20 years with a few thousand troops on the ground, but ultimately if the will to fight among Afghans isn't there, then it was time to leave.
mentality of interventionism without a plan summed up right there.I'm not even in the "Buhuh, bad yanks just wanting war to enrich themselves" boat but surely you realize how stupid it is to blame the Afghan society after walzing in, creating a vacuum and then have no idea how to proceed except for "let's build a couple of buildings".
His entire argument seemed based around the idea that because the US has kept troops in Korea for 60 years, that it should do the same in yet another country, which is not a particularly persuasive reason to continue in Afghanistan indefinitely.