Afghanistan

FireballXL5 said:
Not really. They are balls deep in heroin and always have been. They are fecking hypocrites.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...to-ban-heroin-but-can-they-survive-without-it
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In fairness to the Taliban, its far too lucrative to pass up in a country that doesn't have much in the way of income. The opium production would take place irrespective of whether the Taliban or a democratic government were running the country because farmers can't make much money off of other crops compared to what they make off of opium. Afghan politicians have also been deeply complicit in receiving money off of opium production over the years.

87TrzIZ.png
 
FireballXL5 said:
Not really. They are balls deep in heroin and always have been. They are fecking hypocrites.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...to-ban-heroin-but-can-they-survive-without-it
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What @Ferguson’s Hairdryer said applies.


Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
So it's ok and not hypocritical at all to say you're against drugs but then produce and sell drugs because you need the money?
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Hypocritical? Yeah probably, but it makes it a bit confusing due to the lack of central control and all. Fact is when they were in full power they weren't big fans of it and of course that might have changed but in general the ideology has been anti drugs.


It's not like Taliban being anti drugs makes them some sort of glorious saviors but it's important to know what exactly they are about and understand the situation. Maybe if Americans in general understood Afghan culture since 2001 we wouldn't be in this mess.

The Taliban initially, and today attracted a lot of youth who want to fight against the "corrupt regime", no matter how evil their intentions are this is their selling point and drugs would damage that image. On the flip side, this is why I have doubts about women's rights as a vast majority of rural afghans have a totally different idea of a woman's role in society and unfortunately I don't see that changing any time soon.
 
Raoul said:
In fairness to the Taliban, its far too lucrative to pass up in a country that doesn't have much in the way of income. The opium production would take place irrespective of whether the Taliban or a democratic government were running the country because farmers can't make much money off of other crops compared to what they make off of opium. Afghan politicians have also been deeply complicit in receiving money off of opium production over the years.

87TrzIZ.png
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This is an American source:

https://web.archive.org/web/2016040...ontent/uploads/2011/09/AfghanTalibanOpium.pdf

From the paper:
Afghanistan was the main source of the world’s illicit heroin supply for most of the 1990s. From late 2000 and the year that followed, the Taliban enforced a ban on poppy farming via Threats, forced eradication, and public punishment of transgressors. The result was a 99% reduction in the area of opium poppy farming in Taliban-controlled areas
 
shamans said:
This is an American source:

https://web.archive.org/web/2016040...ontent/uploads/2011/09/AfghanTalibanOpium.pdf

From the paper:
Afghanistan was the main source of the world’s illicit heroin supply for most of the 1990s. From late 2000 and the year that followed, the Taliban enforced a ban on poppy farming via Threats, forced eradication, and public punishment of transgressors. The result was a 99% reduction in the area of opium poppy farming in Taliban-controlled areas
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Give it a few years and let's see how the Taliban handle this issue. You will eventually find that they can't pass up the money, especially if they are cutoff from outside funds because most of the world don't recognize them.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
So it's ok and not hypocritical at all to say you're against drugs but then produce and sell drugs because you need the money?
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The Taliban got involved in the drug trade to begin with as they needed the money to sustain their fight against the US/Afghan regime. Now that they're in power again, they've already said they're going to stop trading and trafficking it.

It's hypocritical, but means to an end I guess.
 
Raoul said:
Give it a few years and let's see how the Taliban handle this issue. You will eventually find that they can't pass up the money, especially if they are cutoff from outside funds because most of the world don't recognize them.
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That's possibly true I'm just pointing out its not right to say they "always" have profited off of it. This is V2.0 though so we never know.
 
shamans said:
This is an American source:

https://web.archive.org/web/2016040...ontent/uploads/2011/09/AfghanTalibanOpium.pdf

From the paper:
Afghanistan was the main source of the world’s illicit heroin supply for most of the 1990s. From late 2000 and the year that followed, the Taliban enforced a ban on poppy farming via Threats, forced eradication, and public punishment of transgressors. The result was a 99% reduction in the area of opium poppy farming in Taliban-controlled areas
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You're correct -
_106598597_afghan_opium_chart-nc.png
 
shamans said:
The Taliban initially, and today attracted a lot of youth who want to fight against the "corrupt regime", no matter how evil their intentions are this is their selling point and drugs would damage that image.
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I think you're gradually figuring out how this stuff works. Good stuff.
 
shamans said:
What? :lol: Someone said they've always been high producers of opium and I only corrected that.
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By that I mean the Taliban will say one thing publicly to protect that image but in reality they will look the other way or even tacitly accept opium production, possibly in exchange for money. Like any government, really.
 
Sorry to interrupt the smack conversation but...

Update for those not paying attention to the latest news

- The CIA director met with the Taliban in Kabul (Would have loved to have seen how that went down)
- Taliban have drawn a hard red line for the US exit by end of the month
- Taliban are outright refusing Afghans to leave the country
- Still many thousands of Americans stranded and afraid to make their way to the airport
- Conditions at the Hamid Karzai airport have been horrendous, CNN reports it's slightly improved

With the way things are unfolding, I'd imagine the Taliban told the CIA folks to piss off

Biden to speak any moment, now

Watching an interview with a DC International Evac organization, supposedly they reached out to the Biden admin the minute Joe announced the exit from Afghanistan. They were repeatedly ignored by Biden's people and the military leadership

Only positive news, there's a increase in flights out of the airport
CNN has tried to help the Biden admin by repeating that 20,000 people flown out over the past day
 
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Raoul said:
Give it a few years and let's see how the Taliban handle this issue. You will eventually find that they can't pass up the money, especially if they are cutoff from outside funds because most of the world don't recognize them.
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The world recognises Saudi Arabia… all it will take is for the USA to acknowledge the Taliban, and the world will follow. They already have a HQ in Qatar, a major US ally where there is a major US military base.

If the Taliban had agreed the pipeline deal with the US back in 1998 they probably would not have been ousted, likelihood is they’ve learnt their lesson and will trade with the USA in the future.

The noises are sounding like the Taliban will be allowed to stay in charge and if they trade and share wealth opportunities the USA won’t care about women’s rights in Afghanistan, if they don’t trade and open up opportunities then won’t be too hard to gain support to invade.
 
Ferguson’s Hairdryer said:
The world recognises Saudi Arabia… all it will take is for the USA to acknowledge the Taliban, and the world will follow. They already have a HQ in Qatar, a major US ally where there is a major US military base.

If the Taliban had agreed the pipeline deal with the US back in 1998 they probably would not have been ousted, likelihood is they’ve learnt their lesson and will trade with the USA in the future.

The noises are sounding like the Taliban will be allowed to stay in charge and if they trade and share wealth opportunities the USA won’t care about women’s rights in Afghanistan, if they don’t trade and open up opportunities then won’t be too hard to gain support to invade.
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Of course it would be hard to gain support.

Afghanistan is over. The US isn't going back in for the foreseeable future.
 
Ferguson’s Hairdryer said:
The world recognises Saudi Arabia… all it will take is for the USA to acknowledge the Taliban, and the world will follow. They already have a HQ in Qatar, a major US ally where there is a major US military base.

If the Taliban had agreed the pipeline deal with the US back in 1998 they probably would not have been ousted, likelihood is they’ve learnt their lesson and will trade with the USA in the future.

The noises are sounding like the Taliban will be allowed to stay in charge and if they trade and share wealth opportunities the USA won’t care about women’s rights in Afghanistan, if they don’t trade and open up opportunities then won’t be too hard to gain support to invade.
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US recognising Taliban....are you on acid?
 
The Firestarter said:
US recognising Taliban....are you on acid?
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Do you think if it was IS taking over Afghanistan over the past 4-5 years the US would have just sat back and let it happen? No, they would be dropping air strikes on every known IS location and sending ground troops if necessary.

The Taliban as much as we don’t agree with their way of ruling are not actually a terrorist group. They have never had any interest in attacking foreign lands or taking over nearby countries

It won’t be overnight.. but a HQ in Qatar a key US ally, do you think the USA would allow IS to have a HQ right next to one of its biggest military bases in the Middle East?

The Taliban, and not the Afghan army, defeating IS when IS tried to get into Afghanistan etc

Anyways not saying it’s certain but I’d say they are on probation for a few years. The main criteria will probably be to see how they handle other terrorist groups that are not IS and who they once gave shelter to eg AQ or whatever name/s they currently have.
 
Ferguson’s Hairdryer said:
Do you think if it was IS taking over Afghanistan over the past 4-5 years the US would have just sat back and let it happen? No, they would be dropping air strikes on every known IS location and sending ground troops if necessary.

The Taliban as much as we don’t agree with their way of ruling are not actually a terrorist group. They have never had any interest in attacking foreign lands or taking over nearby countries

It won’t be overnight.. but a HQ in Qatar a key US ally, do you think the USA would allow IS to have a HQ right next to one of its biggest military bases in the Middle East?

The Taliban, and not the Afghan army, defeating IS when IS tried to get into Afghanistan etc

Anyways not saying it’s certain but I’d say they are on probation for a few years. The main criteria will probably be to see how they handle other terrorist groups that are not IS and who they once gave shelter to eg AQ or whatever name/s they currently have.
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Trump made a deal. They don't attack US troops, and vice versa. But that is a very long way from recognzing them as a legitimate government.
 
The Firestarter said:
Trump made a deal. They don't attack US troops, and vice versa. But that is a very long way from recognzing them as a legitimate government.
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A journey of a 1000 miles begins with one step.
Making deals in itself is a sign of recognition especially when it’s a deal that gives the group a shot at retaking the country with no interference from you.
 
The cultivation has increased so much over the last 20 years since the occupation. Was it not some part of the US armies mission to destroy Poppy Fields?
 
The Firestarter said:
US recognising Taliban....are you on acid?
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The US not giving the Taliban any legitimacy will only be for public consumption. It's quite obvious they have been talking to the Taliban for a number of years culminating in this takeover by the Taliban. There is and will still be back channels of communications.
 
Seeing reports that Kabul is being dominated by Talibs from Helmand, who are also taking most of the top-tier positions. Be interesting to see how this might impact the opium trade and relations with other factions.
 
Why we need to stop calling Afghanistan “The Graveyard of Empires”

.....


“Clichés such as “Afghanistan, the graveyard of empires” gain currency because they appear to explain complex events with simple truths distilled from centuries of experience. The temptation to reach for such easy answers must be resisted if we are to have any hope of understanding how we arrived at our present historical moment or of holding those responsible to account. There are assuredly reasons for the U.S. failure in Afghanistan, and these will no doubt be hotly debated for years to come. However, as history has shown, Afghanistan being “the graveyard of empires” is clearly not one of them.”

https://ajammc.com/2021/08/24/stop-...7QXwZzIBJxuWEfOmW0YZTHQuWGFebk39fDjoa_OXbgM40
 
Sultan said:
The US not giving the Taliban any legitimacy will only be for public consumption. It's quite obvious they have been talking to the Taliban for a number of years culminating in this takeover by the Taliban. There is and will still be back channels of communications.
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Well of course, they did a deal with Trump. Nobody claimed it was secret. It happens in many conflicts, but official recognition brings many other consequences.
 
Sultan said:
The cultivation has increased so much over the last 20 years since the occupation. Was it not some part of the US armies mission to destroy Poppy Fields?
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Not sure what the " message" is now but in the early days of the war there were plenty of pictures of the Brits and American soldiers defending the poppy fields as production spiked after the Taliban had reduced it by a big percentage.
 
Roane said:
Not sure what the " message" is now but in the early days of the war there were plenty of pictures of the Brits and American soldiers defending the poppy fields as production spiked after the Taliban had reduced it by a big percentage.
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The US sent DEA people to Afghanistan in the early days to deal with the drug issue. If there was any protecting of fields it would’ve been to preserve the ability of Afghan farmers to plant other crops and steer them away from the drug trade. Not a very effective strategy in the end given the lopsided profit disparities between poppy and conventional crops.
 
2cents said:
Why we need to stop calling Afghanistan “The Graveyard of Empires”

.....


“Clichés such as “Afghanistan, the graveyard of empires” gain currency because they appear to explain complex events with simple truths distilled from centuries of experience. The temptation to reach for such easy answers must be resisted if we are to have any hope of understanding how we arrived at our present historical moment or of holding those responsible to account. There are assuredly reasons for the U.S. failure in Afghanistan, and these will no doubt be hotly debated for years to come. However, as history has shown, Afghanistan being “the graveyard of empires” is clearly not one of them.”

https://ajammc.com/2021/08/24/stop-...7QXwZzIBJxuWEfOmW0YZTHQuWGFebk39fDjoa_OXbgM40
Click to expand...
That's a really interesting article. (There are so many areas of the world I should know more about!)

It's also interesting that Biden used the 'graveyard of empires' trope. It underlines the neocolonialist angle of American foreign policy - which I think they would usually rather hide in diplomatic language.
 
Raoul said:
The US sent DEA people to Afghanistan in the early days to deal with the drug issue. If there was any protecting of fields it would’ve been to preserve the ability of Afghan farmers to plant other crops and steer them away from the drug trade. Not a very effective strategy in the end given the lopsided profit disparities between poppy and conventional crops.
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I do not recall a single operation with primary mission intent to squash opium production, granted I was not clued into the joint ops world in the first half of the war.
 
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