Afghanistan

Rektsanwalt said:
dont you think quality of training and the likes is completely irrelevant when the decision makers basically decide to concede?
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They decided to withdraw now, doesn't erase the past.

If you went to military school for 4 out of 5 and drop out on the last year doesn't mean your 4 years training isn't applicable. 20 years means 1 full generations of Afghan army, enough time to create a chain of command, culture, discipline, core value etc. Most militias don't even have 1 year.
 
Sky1981 said:
They decided to withdraw now, doesn't erase the past.

If you went to military school for 4 out of 5 and drop out on the last year doesn't mean your 4 years training isn't applicable. 20 years means 1 full generations of Afghan army, enough time to create a chain of command, culture, discipline, core value etc. Most militias don't even have 1 year.
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yeah, well, pretty sure it was never intended to hold until after the US leaving, but for the time of occupation to have local partners and basically subordinates
 
Abizzz said:
One has to wonder if it wasn't 83 billion to pay them off to be on our side for the time being.
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Soft approach works, you really can't win with guns and bombs.

Every taliban you kill means 4-5 more of their relatives (wives, daughter, son, father) becomes another Taliban. You can't kill Taliban because it's not an organization, it's an Idea and value. Sure you can head hunt the leader but they'll just elect another. They have all the time in the world, they can choose when to fight, they can harvest farm on summer and fight on winter. The US has no means to differentiate who's Taliban and who's Afghanistan. It's a crocked operation since day one.

I refuse to believe the brass back home didn't foresee this problem, it's Invading a country 101. Even German with all their resources can't fully annex France and here we're talking about Afghanistan.
 
ChaddyP said:
So would you say short term this is obviously a lot of pain and a culmination of bad prior decisions, but ultimately the best course of action at this time since it would eventually happen anyway?
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As I said, they didn't have to go. Once US fecks up and is there, the sooner out the country the better, because they only destroyed the country for nothing as we could see in 2 weeks. So yes, out, have the talibans due their thing and let the international community start a long process of working with Afghanistan of small political and soft power victories. Like is happening in Saudi Arabia, that the women have few rights, little by little they are having more and more and hoping that one they, very far a way, they can have more freedom and rights evolving in peace without disruptions inside how their culture understand progress.

200 years the west were in similar terms and evolved inside the christian dogma. They will be able to do the same if we don't distroy their countries and disestabilize their region every 5-10 years bringing them our "freedom". Is proven that it doesn't work for decades. The same still there and the poorer the country, the more illiterate is the country the easier is to fall in radicalism. Now the country is more unstable than it was in 2001, probably poorer and least infrastructures (didn't see the stats) and they will pay economic sanctions for a few years. All that money, time and lives could be invested in another strategy, but we all know that the west never went there and spend this resources to make Afghanistan better. US stayed there to safe face of a straight invasion that later mascaraded of bringing freedom to women and rights to all the afghans. A charade
 
Foxbatt said:
Yes the buck stops with him but surely it is his military and intelligence advisors who are the ones briefing him. Either they fecked up or he completely ignored all their advice. Having been a VP I do not think he would have completely ignored their advice.
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This isn't on Biden, it's fecked up beyond all recognition (FUBAR) and no president can fix. Just happens to be on his watch.

1 year from now, 2 year from now, staged retreat etc. The Taliban has all the time in the world and the capitulation would be roughly the same.

For 1 soldier on the ground to enjoy his "cellphone and aircon" it took $100 US dollar for Diesel engine (due to the logistic), not to mention his lodging, food, etc would be 10x more expensive again due to logistic. While the Taliban are fighting in their backyard, herding goats while they're at it. This is a very expensive war and it really set the US back decades. They of all people should learn about the fall of the USSR
 


They were to taking the piss. The guys on the right were doing their best Blackadder Goes Forth impersonations.
 
Christ, video of hundreds of people chasing and climbing on to one of the US military planes taxiing at Kabul airport & then videos of it in the air and people who were still holding on to it falling off :( Awful scenes.
 
Joe Biden gets it wrong every time on foreign policy, and many other issues. Everyone knew he couldn’t handle the pressure. Even Obama’s Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, said as much. He ran out of Afghanistan instead of following the plan our Administration left for him—a plan that protected our people and our property, and ensured the Taliban would never dream of taking our Embassy or providing a base for new attacks against America. The withdrawal would be guided by facts on the ground.

After I took out ISIS, I established a credible deterrent. That deterrent is now gone. The Taliban no longer has fear or respect for America, or America’s power. What a disgrace it will be when the Taliban raises their flag over America’s Embassy in Kabul. This is complete failure through weakness, incompetence, and total strategic incoherence.
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Thats apparently Donald Trumps statement ... looks a little to coherent to actually be from trump imo but I think this (and subsequent actions from the taliban) will be something that forms a big part of the republican attacks in 2022

I actually think its going to be a fairly effective attack as well because the situation is complicated and nuanced and that does not lend its self well to campaigns - insetad of full on attack adds (Biden let these brave American troops die for nothing type adverts)
 
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Santos J said:
Christ, video of hundreds of people chasing and climbing on to one of the US military planes taxiing at Kabul airport & then videos of it in the air and people who were still holding on to it falling off :( Awful scenes.
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Yes, reminiscent of Vietnam in the mid 70's... "Those who don't learn from history are destined to repeat it" (Santayana/Churchill}???
 
Sean_RedDevil said:
:(
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Oh sweet Jesus! :( Reminds me of the pictures from 9/11 where people were jumping. Absolutely terrifying!

What must families of soldiers who died / were wounded over there be thinking? Their ultimate sacrifice to 'bring stability and order' to the region has been un-done in a week!
 
What the feck was the plan of those clowns? Hang onto an aircraft tire and make it from Kabul to USA?
 
sun_tzu said:


that was never going to end well... but yeah horrible
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Christ what a fecking mess, feel sorry for those people actually trying to escape.

Another cluster feck left behind by the West and it's beyond disgraceful. Not too familiar with what was being planned but wtf had the Americans planned when they withdrew. Was this Bidden's masterplan or what?
 
sun_tzu said:
I'm surprised the plans even managed to take off from the footage I saw

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Isn't the first part of that video an old video?

I'm sure the first part is part of what was shown yesterday but somebody posted and showed it was an old video
 
Kostov said:
Christ what a fecking mess, feel sorry for those people actually trying to escape.

Another cluster feck left behind by the West and it's beyond disgraceful. Not too familiar with what was being planned but wtf had the Americans planned when they withdrew. Was this Bidden's masterplan or what?
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I think the generals convinced Blinken and Biden that the Afghan forces could at least hold Kabul or some small enclave of it, so there is a stalemate and possible negotiations after that. No one expected that lot to fold like wet toilet paper and the Taliban waltzing right into the capital.

The 1400 diplomats left there were to facilitate negotiations and possible power sharing. Now they are desperately evacuating them, realizing that their assumptions of Afghan resistance were a blunder.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
I think the generals convinced Blinken and Biden that the Afghan forces could at least hold Kabul or some small enclave of it, so there is a stalemate and possible negotiations after that. No one expected that lot to fold like wet toilet paper and the Taliban waltzing right into the capital.

The 1400 diplomats left there were to facilitate negotiations and possible power sharing. Now they are desperately evacuating them, realizing that their assumptions of Afghan resistance were a blunder.
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So it's incompetence of massive proportions starting from the generals up to the president and his advisors? This is brutal to see and I hope at least stirs massive changes in the western politics, for which the chances are very very slim.
 
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think Biden has done the right thing in getting out. It was always going to be a mess, no matter when it was done.

Of course it is a tragedy for many people. But ultimately, they have been there for 20 years now with no signs of a functioning democracy.

In the end, any real change must start with the people of that country. If it doesn't, it will not last. The fact that the Afghan army folded so easily tells me that if they want a free country, they need to earn it.

This is of course extremely harsh to the Afghan people, but that is the reality.
 
Is there any worse and more humiliating way this could've ended? The only way I can think of is if the Taliban had downed some of the rescue planes and the US was forced to bomb the shit out of them, again.
 
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The Firestarter said:
Is there any worse and more humiliating way this could've ended? The only way I can think of is if the Taliban had downed some of the rescue planes and the US was forced to bomb the shit out of them, again.
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Give it 6 months till china is mining billions of dollars of rare earth materials from there and bringing in oil straight from Iran... that should be some nice icing on the nation building cake
 
sun_tzu said:
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Give it 6 months till china is mining billions of dollars of rare earth materials from there and bringing in oil straight from Iran... that should be some nice icing on the nation building cake
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It's in China's, Pakistan's and Iran's interest to make this work. Oh and Russia too.
 
Eurotrash said:
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think Biden has done the right thing in getting out. It was always going to be a mess, no matter when it was done.

Of course it is a tragedy for many people. But ultimately, they have been there for 20 years now with no signs of a functioning democracy.

In the end, any real change must start with the people of that country. If it doesn't, it will not last. The fact that the Afghan army folded so easily tells me that if they want a free country, they need to earn it.

This is of course extremely harsh to the Afghan people, but that is the reality.
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Agreed, the mistake was going in and occupying for so long. My parents lived and worked in the region for a long time and I had a long discussion with one of their friends who said the whole scheme was doomed for exactly the reasons we're seeing now. You cannot build a nation based on made up borders with a people who have no interest in it. It was a folly from the start.
 
Eurotrash said:
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think Biden has done the right thing in getting out. It was always going to be a mess, no matter when it was done.

Of course it is a tragedy for many people. But ultimately, they have been there for 20 years now with no signs of a functioning democracy.

In the end, any real change must start with the people of that country. If it doesn't, it will not last. The fact that the Afghan army folded so easily tells me that if they want a free country, they need to earn it.

This is of course extremely harsh to the Afghan people, but that is the reality.
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He did the right thing in getting out but he didn't do the right thing in setting a timeline by which it would happen, since all that did was embolden the Taliban to launch and offensive and demoralize the Afghan Army to flee, which has caused all of the ripple effects we're seeing over the past week.
 
Kostov said:
So it's incompetence of massive proportions starting from the generals up to the president and his advisors? This is brutal to see and I hope at least stirs massive changes in the western politics, for which the chances are very very slim.
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I'm not sure why people make blanket statements such as these, as if these people have a manual from which to reference in these situations. This is a shit pile 20 years in the making that landed under this administration. There is no winning this war, it was always going to be a case of some poor feller ending up with the hot potato in his hands when the clock expires.
 
Eurotrash said:
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think Biden has done the right thing in getting out. It was always going to be a mess, no matter when it was done.

Of course it is a tragedy for many people. But ultimately, they have been there for 20 years now with no signs of a functioning democracy.

In the end, any real change must start with the people of that country. If it doesn't, it will not last. The fact that the Afghan army folded so easily tells me that if they want a free country, they need to earn it.

This is of course extremely harsh to the Afghan people, but that is the reality.
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I agree with you. It had to be done and done fast. What I feel is that Biden was never told of the possibility of the collapse of the Afghan Army. But put yourself in their shoes. They know that they can't beat the Taliban. So once they knew the Americans are leaving they took the only option to save their lives. Cut a deal with the Taliban. We don't fight and you don't kill us.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
I'm not sure why people make blanket statements such as these, as if these people have a manual from which to reference in these situations. This is a shit pile 20 years in the making that landed under this administration. There is no winning this war, it was always going to be a case of some poor feller ending up with the hot potato in his hands when the clock expires.
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This isn’t true either though. The clock ‘expiring’ was started by Trump and continued by Biden. It was a US decision to put a date on things and Biden had a chance to reverse it or slow/change approach and chose not to take it. He’s not a poor fellow who was left with no choice and he needs to own some of the responsibility for how chaotic the withdrawal has been.
 
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