AFCON: Does it need and deserve more respect as a tournament?

Mainoonited said:
It does get that typical European dismissal. You can see it herein this thread... "inferior tournament".

As African players become increasingly prominent at the top tier of world football, the appropriate respect will be given to it.

I think from a euro-centric view it's seen as a nuisance because it happens in the middle of their season every 2 years.

I think as a tournament it'd benefit from happening every 4 years.
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African players have been prominent in the Premier League for quite a long time now though and it doesn't seem to have become much more respected.

I think it's a bit like the Saudi League where although you have some top players and a handful of big teams, the poorer teams and players are so poor quality it dilutes the quality of the overall tournament significantly.

I agree that the scheduling really doesn't help though. The next one is even worse too as it's 21st of December to the 18th of January. It's really bad timing and means that Afcon players will potentially miss a lot of Premier League games if their nation goes the distance.
 
The Original said:
The Afcon doesn't need more respect. What it needs is less disrespect. It's fine to have opinions and preferences, but while you don't need to think the Afcon is great or say great things about it, one really should refrain from talking it down for no reason. Clearly, it means a lot to some groups of people, and it is enough respect to simply acknowledge this.
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Basically this.
 
Mainoonited said:
It does get that typical European dismissal. You can see it herein this thread... "inferior tournament".

As African players become increasingly prominent at the top tier of world football, the appropriate respect will be given to it.

I think from a euro-centric view it's seen as a nuisance because it happens in the middle of their season every 2 years.

I think as a tournament it'd benefit from happening every 4 years.
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No it wouldn't benefit from hosting it every 4 years.

Afcon is the only major tournament Africa has, look at the number of slots African countries get at the world Cup

Europeans don't have to respect it, but you don't get a say on how it's ran.

I haven't heard anything from the other footballing territories about Afcon but European football thinks it has a say.

Just release the players when it's time, it doesn't need respect from Europeans. It's been going on long enough
 
Carragher’s main point wasn’t completely wrong - Salah is at a disadvantage for the Ballon d’Or as the Afcon makes less impact rightly or wrongly. Would Salah win the Ballon d’Or for player of the tournament at the Afcon if he did very little in the CL? Couldn’t see it, whereas Rodri being player of the tournament at the Euros is what pushed him to be winner. It’s not fair that way but it is what it is.

However his tone and the dismissive scoff came across very badly, the delivery of the point was poor.
 
Alex99 said:
I don't think it's a particularly controversial take.

No one cares about the North American, Asian, African or Oceanic versions of the Champions League when it comes to the Ballon D'or either. We all know they're a lower level of competition.
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Yeah this is a great point.

Copa America is still considered quite big because Brazil & Argentina are both in it and historically have always been 2 of the best NT's in the world having both won World Cup's this generation. They are sides that have proven time and again they can compete with the best NT's in Europe and beat them which gives the tournament significance.

But the SA equivalent of the CL isn't IMO because there isn't deemed to be any club team from that continent who can really compete with Europe's best - look at the Club World Cup as an example which is something nobody in Europe really takes seriously, yet only once since 2007 has the side representing Europe failed to win it (which is the year Corinthians beat Chelsea 1-0 which was viewed as a massive upset).

I think it's the same as all the major club competitions / NT comps on the other continents. Unless there are 1 or 2 sides involved that are deemed to be an elite level and can compete with the best teams in Europe, it's always going to be viewed as a bit of a B-level competition unfortunately.
 
Ludens the Red said:
Sturridge basically said if you win the Euros and Copa then Afcon should be seen as same level. That’s an insincere argument to me.
Richards yes did only really say it is a major tournament correcting Jamie. But I felt it was splitting hairs a bit. I’m sure they knew what Jamie’s point was (even if not greatly put across) and they felt the need to try and sort of ‘big up’ the Afcon.
And imo with those two I don’t think it comes from a sincere place. I’ve seen these two on punditry for years, they’re trash pundits and id be amazed if either actually followed the Afcon.

But yeah Afcon is a very unpredictable tournament. Even Ivory Coast being favs for the last one and winning it was done in the most unpredictable manner with them losing 2/3 group games and sacking the coach mid tournament.
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I think that - when having these discussions - for the sake of objectivity - it’s probably best to stick to what was said - even if you may have points of contention regarding the source/who said what. I mean, Carragher isn’t exactly a model citizen nor pundit (and I’m simply saying this because you questioned the motivations behind Richards/Sturridge - which opens Carragher up to the same scrutiny, no?). In terms of punditry quality - I don’t think any of them is particularly/especially adept - they all pretty much regurgitate a bunch of cliches, lean heavily into the power of hindsight and crack jokes etc.

So, again, I think Richards rightly interjected in saying the AFCON is a major trophy - Carragher has since admitted his description was clumsy - that the AFCON is a major trophy - and has elaborated on what he was trying to get across. Don’t think it needs to be more than this.
 
Ceteris said:
No it wouldn't benefit from hosting it every 4 years.

Afcon is the only major tournament Africa has, look at the number of slots African countries get at the world Cup

Europeans don't have to respect it, but you don't get a say on how it's ran.

I haven't heard anything from the other footballing territories about Afcon but European football thinks it has a say.

Just release the players when it's time, it doesn't need respect from Europeans. It's been going on long enough
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i think the problem you might find in the future is the "Ryan Giggs effect". He was regularly injured for international fixtures for Wales but soon fit for Manchester United fixtures. There might be an element of some of the top players starting to do that if they think it's going to affect their chances of being the star man in their club career.
 
harms said:
AFCON
…
Asian Cup
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I can accept that AFCON maybe has a higher bottom level, but when looking at the best teams from each association I would say that they are neck-and-neck.

Since the 2010 World Cup and onwards, the AFC have had 6 teams (total, not unique) advancing from the group stages to the round of 16. The AFCON has had 5 teams achieving the same.

Granted, AFCON teams have gotten further in the tournament (Ghana 2010 and Morocco 2022), but overall I'd say that the AFC and AFCON are more or less equal when it comes to world cup performance.
 
When was the last time a player won the Ballon d'Or on the basis of a Euro or Copa performance?
 
Honestly I think a lot of the disrepect from europeans comes from its scheduling

If they could have it during the european summer break it would be seen in a different light
 
SilentWitness said:
You don't think Spain and Rodri winning the Euros influenced his win?
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I would think his treble season had more weight to him winning it. My point is I don't think outside of a World Cup, many players win the individual awards on the back of international tournaments. I can't think of many, if any, off the top of my head.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
I would think his treble season had more weight to him winning it. My point is I don't think outside of a World Cup, many players win the individual awards on the back of international tournaments. I can't think of many, if any, off the top of my head.
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IMO if Spain crash out in the QF of Euros there’s no way Rodri wins it.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
I would think his treble season had more weight to him winning it. My point is I don't think outside of a World Cup, many players win the individual awards on the back of international tournaments. I can't think of many, if any, off the top of my head.
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They changed the metric though to judging by season rather than calendar year. The season was 23-24 where City only won the PL.
 
It’s evidently of a lower quality than the Euros and World Cup and therefore less relevant when it comes to awards. Carragher clearly lacked the wit to explain it.
 
TsuWave said:
I think that - when having these discussions - for the sake of objectivity - it’s probably best to stick to what was said - even if you may have points of contention regarding the source/who said what. I mean, Carragher isn’t exactly a model citizen nor pundit (and I’m simply saying this because you questioned the motivations behind Richards/Sturridge - which opens Carragher up to the same scrutiny, no?). In terms of punditry quality - I don’t think any of them is particularly/especially adept - they all pretty much regurgitate a bunch of cliches, lean heavily into the power of hindsight and crack jokes etc.

So, again, I think Richards rightly interjected in saying the AFCON is a major trophy - Carragher has since admitted his description was clumsy - that the AFCON is a major trophy - and has elaborated on what he was trying to get across. Don’t think it needs to be more than this.
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Nah that’s well wide of the mark.
Carragher is miles above Richards and Sturridge with his general football punditry/knowledge and interest. They’re not at the same level.

Technically speaking yes the Afcon is a major trophy but I would bracket it in the same argument as if someone was flippant in stating for instance that the Fa and league cup werent major comps.
If for instance someone was saying “oh insert manager hasn’t won anything major at insert club as he hasn’t won the league or Cl” but then he’d won the Fa cup and League Cup (ETH for instance). If someone interjected into that argument with “oh but the Fa cup and league cup are major tournaments” yes technically they’d be right. But you’d know that wasn’t really what the debate was about. Richards was probably more on a wind up but the subsequent comments from Sturridge and then Rio’s piece are kinda just bs to me.
 
whenever I bothered to watch it, the football was shyte and there were very few goals to see. you can't offer such shyte football to the non-African audience and expect them to enjoy it.

football can be shyte in other tournaments as well, but they will always have Argentina, Brazil, France or England to attract interest of wider audience.

on top of that, Copa and WC/Euro are played about month, month and half after the regular season is finished. so you'll watch even the worst possible football because it's better than nothing. you kinda start missing it, you know.

being low quality is bad enough, but the tournament being played in the middle of the season, with so much stuff being played at the same time as well is much worse. and I'm not just talking about football, for example handball international tournaments are almost at the same time as AFCON.

scheduling is not helping it.
 
Ludens the Red said:
Nah that’s well wide of the mark.
Carragher is miles above Richards and Sturridge with his general football punditry/knowledge and interest. They’re not at the same level.

Technically speaking yes the Afcon is a major trophy but I would bracket it in the same argument as if someone was flippant in stating for instance that the Fa and league cup werent major comps.
If for instance someone was saying “oh insert manager hasn’t won anything major at insert club as he hasn’t won the league or Cl” but then he’d won the Fa cup and League Cup (ETH for instance). If someone interjected into that argument with “oh but the Fa cup and league cup are major tournaments” yes technically they’d be right. But you’d know that wasn’t really what the debate was about. Richards was probably more on a wind up but the subsequent comments from Sturridge and then Rio’s piece are kinda just bs to me.
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I guess I just disagree. I don’t think any pundits are particularly “good”. I think they are all in the same ballpark, with varying degrees of “eh, they were right/funny” dependent on the situation. This is a subjective aside and not central to the discussion though. My point still remains that if you’re opening up scrutiny due to the source - rather than what was said - Carragher is open to the same.

I’m not sure I follow what you’re trying to say with your example. Richards was right in saying the AFCON is a major trophy. It is. Carragher has already conceded he was wrong in his descriptors and admitted he was clumsy articulating his point. That’s his damage, not Richards. That’s where that should be left at. I don’t think there needs to be manoeuvring around this to make Richards “insincere”, which is the part of your post I addressed. In terms of Sturridge, from recollection I thought he pretty much just echoed Richards in saying it’s a major trophy. You said he said that it should be weighed the same as WC/Euros and I took your word for it. In an ideal world, yes all competitions would be weighted similarly, but I get it - the world is not ideal, so that doesn’t apply - I still don’t think he was being insincere

I’ve not really seen Rio’s take so I refrained from commenting on it.
 
I don't think he's that wrong. The Copa America is in the same boat. The lack of consistent structure in its frequency devalues them, and the only games I'm remotely interested in are the final of the tournaments or Argentina v Brazil. I'd say Copa is a rung below the euros and the AFCON is one below the Copa in terms of prestige and general interest, but they could both be structured better to draw in more interest.
 
The Copa has Argentina and Brazil, that will always make it bigger than the AFCON.
 
In the last 10 years there's been more PFA players of the year from Africa than England or South America, I get the point Carragher is trying to make, that winning the AFCON won't get Salah over the line in the Balon Dor race and the quality isn't as good as the Euros or Copa America for example but I his dismissive tone and laugh at the end can be seen as disrespectful.
 
It can't be worse than Copa. After watching Copa last year I couldn't believe how atrocious and officiating was and the shitehousery was off the charts. The football was awful too. You know it's bad when Canada looked like one of the better teams.
 
The reason to be biannual is because it's the only relevant continental competition, it's the only continental competition where africans can celebrate the best african players. It would be different if the African Champions League was as big as the Copa Libertadores.
 
I watched a lot of the Copa America last year. I was super invested since Team Canada did pretty well. Honestly, I was kind of shocked with the quality of football, refereeing, and disorganization from teams on the pitch. It looked nothing like the Copas from years ago with the great Brazil teams and all that.

Yet the last AFCON was still comfortably worse. Micah saying it’s equally as big as the Euros, I don’t know about that.
 
JPRouve said:
The reason to be biannual is because it's the only relevant continental competition, it's the only continental competition where africans can celebrate the best african players. It would be different if the African Champions League was as big as the Copa Libertadores.
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Well it's not as if Copa Libertadores features the best Latin American players, vast majority of them play in Europe after all.
 
RedDevilCanuck said:
It can't be worse than Copa. After watching Copa last year I couldn't believe how atrocious and officiating was and the shitehousery was off the charts. The football was awful too. You know it's bad when Canada looked like one of the better teams.
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It's not worse than Copa.

Copa last year was a load of hot ass. It being hosted in the US didn't help (worried about what this means for next year but that's another topic). The football quality was torrid. The crowds were nearly non-existent (unless it was Argentina). Just awful.

AFCON last year was one of the best versions of the tournament. Ever.
 
Red Star One said:
Well it's not as if Copa Libertadores features the best Latin American players, vast majority of them play in Europe after all.
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But the number of quality South American playing in South America is significantly higher. Surely we can agree on that?
 
TsuWave said:
I guess I just disagree. I don’t think any pundits are particularly “good”. I think they are all in the same ballpark, with varying degrees of “eh, they were right/funny” dependent on the situation. This is a subjective aside and not central to the discussion though. My point still remains that if you’re opening up scrutiny due to the source - rather than what was said - Carragher is open to the same.

I’m not sure I follow what you’re trying to say with your example. Richards was right in saying the AFCON is a major trophy. It is. Carragher has already conceded he was wrong in his descriptors and admitted he was clumsy articulating his point. That’s his damage, not Richards. That’s where that should be left at. I don’t think there needs to be manoeuvring around this to make Richards “insincere”, which is the part of your post I addressed. In terms of Sturridge, from recollection I thought he pretty much just echoed Richards in saying it’s a major trophy. You said he said that it should be weighed the same as WC/Euros and I took your word for it. In an ideal world, yes all competitions would be weighted similarly, but I get it - the world is not ideal, so that doesn’t apply - I still don’t think he was being insincere

I’ve not really seen Rio’s take so I refrained from commenting on it.
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That's fine, you can open up Carragher to the same scrutiny. Your prerogative, if you dont value him as pundit and feel that's a factor in this, fair.
But from my views Carragher was making a point that was correct but made it poorly and it was pounced on by a number and I dont believe any of it was out of sincere respect and devotion to the Afcon. I hear these guys every week and I'm very confident in my opinions and why the context of who was saying what was just as important as what was actually said. I know Carragher generally knows football and I value his opinion far more than that of Richards/Sturridge in particular who in the past have been very 'narrative' driven with certain debates.

Like I said, Richards was probably more on the wind up. But again like I said, Sturridge literally said it should be held in the same regard as Euros/ Copa America. That is disingenuous, that's not me manoeuvring anything, its a disingenuous argument.
 
romufc said:
Agreed, its not that controversial. Its the same like the Copa America or the Asian equivalent to the tournament.

Just look how far any African nation gets in the World cup to show the lack of quality.
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One of the reasons for that is that a lot of the top African players have played for European countries because of colonial history, Patrick Vieira is a good example of this and there are many others
 
This has blown up out of proportion and Carragher looks like he has since added fuel to the fire.

But going by his first statement, I got the distinct impression he was suggesting that only a World Cup win could trump a domestic season. I got the distinct impression that he was also discounting both the Copa and the Euros at the time.
 
If Africans enjoy their continental cup competition, why does it matter what rest of the world thinks?
 
Ludens the Red said:
That's fine, you can open up Carragher to the same scrutiny. Your prerogative, if you dont value him as pundit and feel that's a factor in this, fair.
But from my views Carragher was making a point that was correct but made it poorly and it was pounced on by a number and I dont believe any of it was out of sincere respect and devotion to the Afcon. I hear these guys every week and I'm very confident in my opinions and why the context of who was saying what was just as important as what was actually said. I know Carragher generally knows football and I value his opinion far more than that of Richards/Sturridge in particular who in the past have been very 'narrative' driven with certain debates.

Like I said, Richards was probably more on the wind up. But again like I said, Sturridge literally said it should be held in the same regard as Euros/ Copa America. That is disingenuous, that's not me manoeuvring anything, its a disingenuous argument.
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I think you’re conflating things I’ve said.

Richards was objectively right when he interjected - as admitted by Carragher. Anything outside of this, is indeed manoeuvring to paint him as insincere. You don’t need devotion to the AFCON to qualify it for what it is/use the correct descriptors. Words have meaning for a reason.

I didn’t say anything pertaining manoeuvring in regards to Sturridge - read the post you just quoted - that was specifically about Richards. Again, from recollection Sturridge just echoed Richards sentiment, but you said he did more in saying it should be weighed like the WC/Euros (and I took your word for it). Again, to me, in an ideal world it would - but I know that’s not how things work hence why I said it doesn’t apply - but that doesn’t necessarily speak to insincerity on his end
 
The Original said:
The Afcon doesn't need more respect. What it needs is less disrespect. It's fine to have opinions and preferences, but while you don't need to think the Afcon is great or say great things about it, one really should refrain from talking it down for no reason. Clearly, it means a lot to some groups of people, and it is enough respect to simply acknowledge this.
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We need a round of applause smiley
 
He's right. If African teams can start regularly going far in the World Cup that might change. As it is the level of competition is too low to hold it up there with the Euros and the World Cup, though I'm not sure it's too far below the Copa America. That only seems to have been pushed forward in recent years as a way for media to credit Messi when he kept failing to win a World Cup.
 
The world needs African World Cups held in countries like Senegal, Ghana, Nigeria, Cameroon, et al. It would be amazing for those countries globally and it is something the football world should be working towards.

As a continent, Africa has contributed a ridiculous amount to the game as we know it.

Having an African WC would make a huge difference to perceptions about football and misconceptions about Africa in general.
 
LDUred said:
The world needs African World Cups held in countries like Senegal, Ghana, Nigeria, Cameroon, et al. It would be amazing for those countries globally and it is something the football world should be working towards.

As a continent, Africa has contributed a ridiculous amount to the game as we know it.

Having an African WC would make a huge difference to perceptions about football and misconceptions about Africa in general.
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I assume you missed the fact that a big part of WC2030 will be in Africa !
 
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