AFCON: Does it need and deserve more respect as a tournament?

SilentWitness

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Carragher is getting a bit of flack at the moment for his comments at the weekend and exasperation when AFCON comes up in the discussion as a major tournament. He clearly doesn't think it is, despite some trying to make excuses for him and say that he thinks it is but it's not going to get the same merits as a Euros or Copa or World Cup.

Here you can see the video for yourself and judge -



That leads me onto the point - does AFCON need to be given more respect, and does it deserve it? I would say yes on both fronts. It's never seen as a major talking point in the way that a Euros or World Cup is. Regularly in Ballon D'or conversations you would hear the line of "Oh it's a Euros or World Cup year so whoever wins that has a bigger chance of winning". Look at Rodri this season for example.

It's hard to find data but the little I did manage to find is that the number of African footballers in the top 5 leagues is continuously increasing, and many of them are star players for their clubs, if not best performing for their clubs.

Salah is the best player in the league this season, Marmoush has been one of the best in the world this season, Gana has been arguably our POTS, Amad one of yours, Mbeumo and Wissa for Brentford, Minteh at Brighton etc. The list goes on.

Here is the take of Rio too. Starts at around 51:00

 
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I don't think it's a particularly controversial take.

No one cares about the North American, Asian, African or Oceanic versions of the Champions League when it comes to the Ballon D'or either. We all know they're a lower level of competition.
 
Probably. I think the biggest problem is that it's a biannual tournament, don't really see why it needs to be when the Euros and World Cup are both every 4 years.
 
SilentWitness said:
Carragher is getting a bit of flack at the moment for his comments at the weekend and exasperation when AFCON comes up in the discussion as a major tournament. He clearly doesn't think it is, despite some trying to make excuses for him and say that he thinks it is but it's not going to get the same merits as a Euros or Copa or World Cup.

Here you can see the video for yourself and judge -



That leads me onto the point - does AFCON need to be given more respect, and does it deserve it? I would say yes on both fronts. It's never seen as a major talking point in the way that a Euros or World Cup is. Regularly in Ballon D'or conversations you would hear the line of "Oh it's a Euros or World Cup year so whoever wins that has a bigger chance of winning". Look at Rodri this season for example.

It's hard to find data but the little I did manage to find is that the number of African footballers in the top 5 leagues is continuously increasing, and many of them are star players for their clubs, if not best performing for their clubs.

Salah is the best player in the league this season, Marmoush has been one of the best in the world this season, Gana has been arguably our POTS, Amad one of yours, Mbeumo and Wissa for Brentford, Minteh at Brighton etc. The list goes on.
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You live in a European country and support a European football team, reading and listening to European football pundits. That’s why you’re exposed to much more hype about Euros than the AFCON. And the World Cup is the World Cup. So will obviously get more hype than either of the other two competitions.

The AFCON is about on a par with the Copa America in terms of its importance/relevance to a European audience. Which makes sense. Neither tournament needs more respect.
 
Those who are in the know respect it, that's all that matters.

Not worried about Carragher's opinion, I'm worried about securing tickets for Morocco in January.
 
Alex99 said:
I don't think it's a particularly controversial take.

No one cares about the North American, Asian, African or Oceanic versions of the Champions League when it comes to the Ballon D'or either. We all know they're a lower level of competition.
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Agreed, its not that controversial. Its the same like the Copa America or the Asian equivalent to the tournament.

Just look how far any African nation gets in the World cup to show the lack of quality.
 
romufc said:
Agreed, its not that controversial. Its the same like the Copa America or the Asian equivalent to the tournament.

Just look how far any African nation gets in the World cup to show the lack of quality.
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Morocco made it to the semi-final of the last World Cup, beating Spain (The next Euro winners) and Portugal along the way.
 
I think the fact it's on every two years devalues it. Also it's on in January.
Also Africa's the poorest continent.

Africa produces lots of talent but has never done well in the WC.

The Copa America doesn't get much attention either really.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The AFCON is about on a par with the Copa America in terms of its importance/relevance to a European audience. Which makes sense. Neither tournament needs more respect.
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Is it? I very much doubt it even though I'm going purely by empirical evidence. Ask a random European fan who is the current holder of Copa and AFCON, I very much doubt that you'll see the parity in right answers between the two.
 
SilentWitness said:
Morocco made it to the semi-final of the last World Cup, beating Spain (The next Euro winners) and Portugal along the way.
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Yes, thats fine but its a one off rather than a regular occurrence. Its obvious that when it comes to Ballon D'or more weight would be put in European competitions and World cup.
 
harms said:
Is it? I very much doubt it even though I'm going purely by empirical evidence. Ask a random European fan who is the current holder of Copa and AFCON, I very much doubt that you'll see the parity in right answers between the two.
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I’d struggle to name either. I’d imagine most football fans are similar. They’re primarily interested in leagues or competitions the club they support or the country they live in competes in. And really don’t give much of a toss about other competitions.

Obvious the preponderance of football hipsters on redcafe means this is a biased sample and you might well get a lot of different opinions to mine.
 
harms said:
Is it? I very much doubt it even though I'm going purely by empirical evidence. Ask a random European fan who is the current holder of Copa and AFCON, I very much doubt that you'll see the parity in right answers between the two.
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The Last Copa thread on here had more than double the amount of pages as the AFCON thread.

I definitely think for the common fan Copa has more weight because of the glamour of teams like Brazil and Argentina, aswell as the Messi factor.
 
I think the bigger issue is that a French magazine award that is massively, massively La Liga biased is given far too much respect and prestige.

There should be a better format and selection process for World Footballer of the Year.

AFCON doesn’t play the same years that the Euros and World Cup play anyway, so Carragher is talking shite about those tournaments outweighing it. The simple fact of the matter is that Salah would likely have won a couple of Balon D’Ors already if he’d played for Madrid or Barcelona. Playing for one of them had a bigger impact on your chances than World Cups, Euros, AFCONs or Johnstone Paint Trophies.
 
romufc said:
Agreed, its not that controversial. Its the same like the Copa America or the Asian equivalent to the tournament.

Just look how far any African nation gets in the World cup to show the lack of quality.
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I mean, Africa just reached their first SF in history (equalling Asia's dodgy Korea 2002) and have much more QF appearances than Asia. Surely African football and African tournaments are bigger than Asian.

As per the topic, couldn't care less about what Carragher thinks, in my opinion and among the people I know I think it's been quite a consensus since the early 90s (when I started following football) that there are three major footballing continents - Europe, South America, Africa. Level and amount of top players coming from Africa is streets ahead of the others (bar Europe and S America) and their championship is easily third most prestigious one after Euros and Copa America. Love to watch AFCON, maybe they could do themselves a favour and look a little bit more professional by not changing the organisers and dates, it should also be organised every four years to increase the prestige. But I think people who love and know football have big respect for AFCON and understand that Africa is one of football's cradles.

It's a bit of a shame that Middle Eastern dictatorships bought two World Cups so far, one can wonder if instead of Qatar and Saudis we could've had tournaments in Egypt or something like Cote d'Ivoire + Ghana + Togo.
 
It’s about where it should be imo. The quality isn’t on par with the WC or euros, (which get extra attention as they’re played in the summer when nothing else is on) and there’s only about a handful of players that anyone in Europe cares to watch. Didn’t Mane and Salah play each other in the final recently? I imagine that caught some attention, but the rest of the time it’s a tournament with some teams and players that nobody really knows much about, played during a busy part of the European season when there’s other football on. Why would that get much attention unless you’ve got a vested interest in that nation?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’d struggle to name either. I’d imagine most football fans are similar. They’re primarily interested in leagues or competitions the club they support or the country they live in competes in. And really don’t give much of a toss about other competitions.

Obvious the preponderance of football hipsters on redcafe means this is a biased sample and you might well get a lot of different opinions to mine.
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I'd struggle to name either and watch neither but still think Copa America is a bigger tournament globally.
 
Red Star One said:
I mean, Africa just reached their first SF in history (equalling Asia's dodgy Korea 2002) and have much more QF appearances than Asia. Surely African football and African tournaments are bigger than Asian.

As per the topic, couldn't care less about what Carragher thinks, in my opinion and among the people I know I think it's been quite a consensus since the early 90s (when I started following football) that there are three major footballing continents - Europe, South America, Africa. Level and amount of top players coming from Africa is streets ahead of the others (bar Europe and S America) and their championship is easily third most prestigious one after Euros and Copa America. Love to watch AFCON, maybe they could do themselves a favour and look a little bit more professional by not changing the organisers and dates, it should also be organised every four years to increase the prestige. But I think people who love and know football have big respect for AFCON and understand that Africa is one of football's cradles.

It's a bit of a shame that Middle Eastern dictatorships bought two World Cups so far, one can wonder if instead of Qatar and Saudis we could've had tournaments in Egypt or something like Cote d'Ivoire + Ghana + Togo.
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I dont think anyone is questioning how big football is in those continents, AFCON lets itself down by the lack of professionalism and levels of blatant corruption. I mean just look at how the teams are treated by their FA's.
 
romufc said:
I dont think anyone is questioning how big football is in those continents, AFCON lets itself down by the lack of professionalism and levels of blatant corruption. I mean just look at how the teams are treated by their FA's.
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The other footballing nations and competitions aren't exactly squeaky clean.
 
Football fans are ignorant towards it. A couple of editions ago, posters on here were claiming that Mane and Salah don't think it's important even though they have always come out and said how vital it is to them.
 
It is a major trophy.

The quality of competition is lower than Euros and World Cup
 
I do enjoy watching but my first thoughts when I think of it are still selfishly "how many players are Chelsea going to lose to it".

Also every two years is stupid.
 
I think it’s quite clearly
Euros
Copa
… arguably a bigger gap
AFCON
…
Asian Cup

And it’s fair to say that AFCON doesn’t influence the Ballon d’Or voting as much (while something like Copa could act as a bonus for Messi, for example, even though not as the main factor).

It probably should be more popular due to how many great African players feature in top leagues nowadays but those things take time. None of the African countries are “established football brands” in the mould of Brazil or Argentina, inviting neutral audiences. The biannual format also hurts the brand as it, consciously or subconsciously, hurts the perception of it as a major tournament — as the World Cup, the golden standard, takes place every four years (not sure what’s going on with Copa’s dates though, are they randomized?).

There’s also a huge anti-AFCON bias in English media since the 00’s when the idea of “not signing African players because you’re gonna lose them for a few weeks during the busiest time of the season every 2 years” became prominent.
 
duffer said:
I do enjoy watching but my first thoughts when I think of it are still selfishly "how many players are Chelsea going to lose to it".

Also every two years is stupid.
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Exactly. The timing and the frequency are a bit problematic, otherwise it is a fine tournament!
 
romufc said:
Hence why I said Blatant.
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115 charges ring a bell? Doesn't really stop the PL being and viewed as the dominant league. Similarly look at La Liga and all the nonsense going on there with Barcelona and Madrid.
Lay said:
Football fans are ignorant towards it. A couple of editions ago, posters on here were claiming that Mane and Salah don't think it's important even though they have always come out and said how vital it is to them.
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TsuWave said:
It is a major trophy.

The quality of competition is lower than Euros and World Cup
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harms said:
I think it’s quite clearly
Euros
Copa
… arguably a bigger gap
AFCON
…
Asian Cup

And it’s fair to say that AFCON doesn’t influence the Ballon d’Or voting as much (while something like Copa could act as a bonus for Messi, for example, even though not as the main factor).

It probably should be more popular due to how many great African players feature in top leagues nowadays but those things take time. None of the African countries are “established football brands” in the mould of Brazil or Argentina, inviting neutral audiences. The biannual format also hurts the brand as it, consciously or subconsciously, hurts the perception of it as a major tournament — as the World Cup, the golden standard, takes place every four years (not sure what’s going on with Copa’s dates though, are they randomized?).

There’s also a huge anti-AFCON bias in English media since the 00’s when the idea of “not signing African players because you’re gonna lose them for a few weeks during the busiest time of the season every 2 years” became prominent.
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Generally agree with these posts.
 
harms said:
I think it’s quite clearly
Euros
Copa
… arguably a bigger gap
AFCON
…
Asian Cup

And it’s fair to say that AFCON doesn’t influence the Ballon d’Or voting as much (while something like Copa could act as a bonus for Messi, for example, even though not as the main factor).

It probably should be more popular due to how many great African players feature in top leagues nowadays but those things take time. None of the African countries are “established football brands” in the mould of Brazil or Argentina, inviting neutral audiences. The biannual format also hurts the brand as it, consciously or subconsciously, hurts the perception of it as a major tournament — as the World Cup, the golden standard, takes place every four years (not sure what’s going on with Copa’s dates though, are they randomized?).

There’s also a huge anti-AFCON bias in English media since the 00’s when the idea of “not signing African players because you’re gonna lose them for a few weeks during the busiest time of the season every 2 years” became prominent.
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Spot on. And I think through the sheer class of African players their teams should get more popular globally. I guess Cameroon was sort of that in the 90s? Expecting Egypt to be quite a major player in the upcoming years with the Salah effect
 
It needs more respect and would benefit from it. That said, there have been countless scandals even in modern times, some awful treatment of players and poor infrastructure and refereeing that has been genuinely embarrassing for any competition looking to be taken seriously.

For context, while the copa America is of course respected I don't think many people in Europe care much about it for much the same reasons they don't care about the African nations Cup. Likewise the asian Cup. Like when Chile won it, it didn't lead to any argument about any Chilean being considered one of the greats or even the Chile team being seen as a big threat.

Personally I've always felt a draw to afcon, there's something exciting about it especially in later rounds and the passion from fans is palpable. Its a romantic competition for me, that for a while looked like it would be mainstream.

Carragher came across as dismissive and a bit arrogant but the jist of what he was saying wasn't without merit. Its absolutely a competition nowhere near reaching its potential
 
Nothing Carragher said was controversial.

It’s patently obvious the Afcon is not on par with the Euros and Copa America and winning the latter two does have a bigger influence on winning the ballon dor than the afcon.
Afcon gets more coverage and is more prestigious than the Asian cup, the Gold Cup etc.
Europe has the best players in the world, copa has Brazil and Argentina. After those continents it’s Africa and that is reflected fairly.
You do also have to factor in that the Afcon is poorly scheduled in terms of its placing in the middle of a season and so clubs aren’t particularly keen on it. In fact that’s probably the biggest issue anyone who has issues with it has.

The virtue signalling across the football media post his comments is very predictable and subsequently tedious.

Personally as a Nigerian who watches the Afcon and is going to the next one there’s nothing Carragher said that made me bat an eyelid. I’ve been able to watch the Afcon in England since the late 90’s without fail. I’m happy with the coverage it gets over here.
Whether it be Euro sport, sky or the bbc, they’ve always had the proper commentators and a proper punditry team for the games. I grew up in an area with Tunisians and Ghanians and we all enjoyed the banter and we were always able to watch it with solid coverage.

If anything I find the reactions of Sturridge, Richards and Rio quite insincere because I am very confident if you asked Sturridge and Richards in particular to name the last three Afcon finals they probably couldn’t. Sturridge wasn’t even aware Haaland was injured during the game on the weekend.
 
Ludens the Red said:
If anything I find the reactions of Sturridge, Richards and Rio quite insincere because I am very confident if you asked Sturridge and Richards in particular to name the last three Afcon finals they probably couldn’t. Sturridge wasn’t even aware Haaland was injured during the game on the weekend.
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I don’t think Sturridge’s nor Richard’s reactions were insincere. Unless I missed something - they correctly interjected and qualified AFCON as a major trophy, which it is. They said nothing about quality - simply that it is a major trophy (and I think Richards added a bit saying it means a lot to people - it does).

Carragher himself as admitted that saying it wasn’t a major competition was clumsy on his part and he didn’t articulate his point in the manner he’d wish. He wanted to say that AFCON isn’t weighed in the same manner as the WC or Euros are for Balon D’Or voting - that doesn’t mean it isn’t a major trophy/competition. And the discussion about “quality” is adjacent.

As an aside - I’ve often found AFCON games more entertaining than WC or Euro games. Often times AFCON teams are pretty gung-ho and disregard defending, which in turn makes for really good/entertaining games. And another thing in its favour is how often “favourites” implode - it is much harder to predict the AFCON winner than it is WC/Euro winner.
 
I don’t agree with Carragher but I also don’t think it’s particularly controversial. Small anecdote but a few AFCONs ago, none of the football lads in my office even knew it was ongoing and once they knew, their interest in it only extended as far as asking me about how the country the player from their club is doing. Carragher is basically like that. He probably doesn't care about it beyond just seeing who wins the final.

It’s huge in my circle of friends, but I'm not gonna get on people's back for not giving a shit about it or dismissing it as a major tournament because I don't give a shit about the Asia cup, Copa America (beyond any big story lines that emerge from there and the final) or the Gold cup.

I don't know how the Euros is viewed in other parts of the world. Do people give a shit about it in places like Japan, Uganda or Bolivia?
 
It does get that typical European dismissal. You can see it herein this thread... "inferior tournament".

As African players become increasingly prominent at the top tier of world football, the appropriate respect will be given to it.

I think from a euro-centric view it's seen as a nuisance because it happens in the middle of their season every 2 years.

I think as a tournament it'd benefit from happening every 4 years.
 
No, only greed and TV revenue get respect in this era.
 
Mainoonited said:
It does get that typical European dismissal. You can see it herein this thread... "inferior tournament".
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It’s a great tournament but quite clearly inferior in terms of prestige compared to the Euros or Copa. Serie A is a major league but there’s nothing controversial saying it’s inferior to Premier League. I don’t think it’s dismissive
 
It doesn't help that the players all pop off midseason and all their respective league carry on. AFCON isn't going to get the same coverage when the Premier League is being played and when they kick off in December they'll be going up against the busy Christmas period of fixtures.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You live in a European country and support a European football team, reading and listening to European football pundits. That’s why you’re exposed to much more hype about Euros than the AFCON. And the World Cup is the World Cup. So will obviously get more hype than either of the other two competitions.

The AFCON is about on a par with the Copa America in terms of its importance/relevance to a European audience. Which makes sense. Neither tournament needs more respect.
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If the Copa America occurred in the same timezones as the European countries (as Afcon does), I think it would be comfortably bigger over here, to be honest.
 
TsuWave said:
I don’t think Sturridge’s nor Richard’s reactions were insincere. Unless I missed something - they correctly interjected and qualified AFCON as a major trophy, which it is. They said nothing about quality - simply that it is a major trophy (and I think Richards added a bit saying it means a lot to people - it does).

Carragher himself as admitted that saying it wasn’t a major competition was clumsy on his part and he didn’t articulate his point in the manner he’d wish. He wanted to say that AFCON isn’t weighed in the same manner as the WC or Euros are for Balon D’Or voting - that doesn’t mean it isn’t a major trophy/competition. And the discussion about “quality” is adjacent.

As an aside - I’ve often found AFCON games more entertaining than WC or Euro games. Often times AFCON teams are pretty gung-ho and disregard defending, which in turn makes for really good/entertaining games. And another thing in its favour is how often “favourites” implode - it is much harder to predict the AFCON winner than it is WC/Euro winner.
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Sturridge basically said if you win the Euros and Copa then Afcon should be seen as same level. That’s an insincere argument to me.
Richards yes did only really say it is a major tournament correcting Jamie. But I felt it was splitting hairs a bit. I’m sure they knew what Jamie’s point was (even if not greatly put across) and they felt the need to try and sort of ‘big up’ the Afcon.
And imo with those two I don’t think it comes from a sincere place. I’ve seen these two on punditry for years, they’re trash pundits and id be amazed if either actually followed the Afcon.

But yeah Afcon is a very unpredictable tournament. Even Ivory Coast being favs for the last one and winning it was done in the most unpredictable manner with them losing 2/3 group games and sacking the coach mid tournament.
 
The Afcon doesn't need more respect. What it needs is less disrespect. It's fine to have opinions and preferences, but while you don't need to think the Afcon is great or say great things about it, one really should refrain from talking it down for no reason. Clearly, it means a lot to some groups of people, and it is enough respect to simply acknowledge this.
 
NicolaSacco said:
If the Copa America occurred in the same timezones as the European countries (as Afcon does), I think it would be comfortably bigger over here, to be honest.
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Probably. Teams like Brazil and Argentina will always generate interest. I really only meant “on a par” as in a tier below the Euros for anyone who lives in Europe/supports a European club.
 
The Original said:
The Afcon doesn't need more respect. What it needs is less disrespect. It's fine to have opinions and preferences, but while you don't need to think the Afcon is great or say great things about it, one really should refrain from talking it down for no reason. Clearly, it means a lot to some groups of people, and it is enough respect to simply acknowledge this.
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Aye, that's a good point.
 
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