[Ji_Maria]

I hate using stats to prove my point, but statistically as well you are wrong. You can't be comparing Januzaj's stats of last season vs the others' stats of this season. Its 50% this season, which I think is better than Martial this season. Also, his key passes are more than others, also Mata has been dispossessed among least no. of times. So, this season Mata and Januzaj>Martial. And Mata has statistically lost ball fewer times than Januzaj, and Januzaj most key cances, so Mata on RW and Januzaj #10? Since all stats (including Goals/minutes) except assists point Januzaj is better than Martial this season and we shouldn't rely on the past, how about convincing people than Martial has had a worse season than most others

How am I wrong. In 2014-15, Januzaj had either a 27% if you listen to ESPN or 39% if you look at whoscored. The 2014-15 Januzaj, the last we consistently saw of him, he was absolutely dire. Full stop.

Stop with the strawman argument of isolating Januzaj comparison to Martial. Martial is a striker who has been shunted out wide to accomodate Rooney for most of the season, and yet has lit the EPL up with goals and assists, so of course Martial isn't going to be a great passer or making key passes, and since he is essentially playing as a second striker of course he is going to be disposed a lot and lose the ball a lot since his job is to beat defenders in the box and score goals/assists, which he is fantastic at. Mind you he is still doing a fantastic job from the wings.

That doesn't even consider the fact that all stats also point towards 2014-15 Januzaj being statistically FAR worse than any of Lingard/Martial/Depay/Rashford/Mata. If you want to say I shouldn't use 2014-15 statistics, that's a bit silly because 2015-16 he has hardly played for MUFC or Dortmund. Looking at the 5 key metrics for an attacking player below, Januzaj ranks at the very bottom for 3, is near the bottom for 1, and is only saving grace is between half to 1 extra key pass per 90 minutes than his competitors. So what are you saying? Because Januzaj makes anywhere between 0.1 to 1 extra key pass every 90 minutes he is somehow statistically better than Martial, Mata, Memphis, Lingard despite being the only player out of the lot to not score any goals and assists, having the worst ability to beat his man and a middling pass completion rate (coupled with low number of passes to begin with)? Again, statistically, on most attacking metrics, Januzaj is either dead last or near the bottom. But yeah, 0.1-1 extra key passes EVERY 90 MINUTES makes up for all that And this doesn't even begin to address why he can't score goals or create assists, despite the fact that even Ross Fing Barkley (same age) is scoring goals/assists.

Goals (Januzaj worst)
Martial - 10
Mata - 6
Memphis - 5
Lingard - 4
Januzaj - 0

Assists (Januzaj tied for worst with Memphis)
Mata - 7
Martial - 3
Lingard - 3
Januzaj - 0
Memphis - 0

Successful Dribbles (Januzaj worst)
Mata - 61%
Memphis - 59%
Lingard - 55%
Martial - 45%
Januzaj - 39%

Pass Completion (Januzaj 3rd)
Lingard - 85%
Mata - 84%
Januzaj - 82%
Martial - 78%
Memphis - 77%

Key Passes (Januzaj 1st)
Januzaj- 1.7
Mata- 1.6
Martial- 1.3
Lingard- 0.8
Memphis- 0.7

 

[Ji_Maria]

@Ji_Maria
I'd agree with some of your points but wanted to add the following:

One general remark on assists: I think it's a skewed stats because it does not reflect the skills of the passer but is inherently linked to the finishing skills of the team mate taking the shot. The passer has next to no influence on that.

I agree with this, but our problem is that shots are NOT being taken. We're not even creating chances for our strikers to even take a shot on goal let alone finish them. Which for me, is de facto evidence that our creativity and ability to create chances is a mess. We keep saying Januzaj is some magical playmaker who can create chances and openings with his superb talent. Frankly, if that was the case, why are we struggling to even take a shot on goal? Why do we finish games with 1 shot on target? Where are all these chances and key passes that are being made?

I mean, did we already forget last season (in which Januzaj played over 1,000 minutes average 49 minutes per appearance) of RVP and Falcao basically standing idly around as we struggled to string together a series of passes? How we would play long periods of time in our own half, failing to make a single pass to RVP/Falcao? Or how when we finally did get the ball in their half, Januzaj decides to try to beat 3 defenders or skying a ridiculous shot on goal rather than making the pass, and then losing the ball and us being caught out and struggling to defend against a counter?

 

[anant]

How am I wrong. In 2014-15, Januzaj had either a 27% if you listen to ESPN or 39% if you look at whoscored. The 2014-15 Januzaj, the last we consistently saw of him, he was absolutely dire. Full stop.

Stop with the strawman argument of isolating Januzaj comparison to Martial. Martial is a striker who has been shunted out wide to accomodate Rooney for most of the season, and yet has lit the EPL up with goals and assists, so of course Martial isn't going to be a great passer or making key passes, and since he is essentially playing as a second striker of course he is going to be disposed a lot and lose the ball a lot since his job is to beat defenders in the box and score goals/assists, which he is fantastic at. Mind you he is still doing a fantastic job from the wings.

That doesn't even consider the fact that all stats also point towards 2014-15 Januzaj being statistically FAR worse than any of Lingard/Martial/Depay/Rashford/Mata. If you want to say I shouldn't use 2014-15 statistics, that's a bit silly because 2015-16 he has hardly played for MUFC or Dortmund. Looking at the 5 key metrics for an attacking player below, Januzaj ranks at the very bottom for 3, is near the bottom for 1, and is only saving grace is between half to 1 extra key pass per 90 minutes than his competitors. So what are you saying? Because Januzaj makes anywhere between 0.1 to 1 extra key pass every 90 minutes he is somehow statistically better than Martial, Mata, Memphis, Lingard despite being the only player out of the lot to not score any goals and assists, having the worst ability to beat his man and a middling pass completion rate (coupled with low number of passes to begin with)? Again, statistically, on most attacking metrics, Januzaj is either dead last or near the bottom. But yeah, 0.1-1 extra key passes EVERY 90 MINUTES makes up for all that And this doesn't even begin to address why he can't score goals or create assists, despite the fact that even Ross Fing Barkley (same age) is scoring goals/assists.

Goals (Januzaj worst)
Martial - 10
Mata - 6
Memphis - 5
Lingard - 4
Januzaj - 0

Assists (Januzaj tied for worst with Memphis)
Mata - 7
Martial - 3
Lingard - 3
Januzaj - 0
Memphis - 0

Successful Dribbles (Januzaj worst)
Mata - 61%
Memphis - 59%
Lingard - 55%
Martial - 45%
Januzaj - 39%

Pass Completion (Januzaj 3rd)
Lingard - 85%
Mata - 84%
Januzaj - 82%
Martial - 78%
Memphis - 77%

Key Passes (Januzaj 1st)
Januzaj- 1.7
Mata- 1.6
Martial- 1.3
Lingard- 0.8
Memphis- 0.7

If we are seeing stats of these players of this season, then why Januzaj of last season? And if we are saying Januzaj is poor becasue of lack of goals, his goals/game ratio is better than that of Martial. So statistically Martial<Januzaj as per your logic

 

[Ji_Maria]

Since we just played a game in which a youngster scored a winner against bitter rivals City away, let's do a walk through the past.

I bring you, 2014 MUFC - MCFC at the Etihad (Oliver ref), where we have young Januzaj starting. Just a few of the comments before he was subbed off.

Exhibit A: Januzaj handed big-game start to earn his place, and fails.

https://www.redcafe.net/matches/manchester-city-vs-manchester-united.15/

"feck. Januzaj snatched at it."
"That was a very nice piece of play and from that angle Adnan should be burying that."
"Januzaj should have scored that . No excuses. You have to take chances like that in these games."
"Adnan has to do better there the counter was on"
"Shite from Adnan."
"pass the ball januzaj"
"FFS adnan"
"Adnan, Rooney, ADM, wake the feck up for feck's sake, setting up every counter for city."
"Januzaj has stalled play time and time again. Our right wing is horrible."
"Januzaj dilly dallying around."
"Januzaj piss me off sometimes."
"That would have been Adnans fault for fecking about and not making the simple pass"
"His carelessness almost cost us a goal. De Gea did well there."
"Januzaj has been so far off the pace you'd think he was the safety car. Too many attacks breaking down out right for us and leading to City counters. De Gea saving us."
"Awful plays from Di Maria and Januzaj for those two chances"
"Januzaj offers nothing"
"We need to stop giving the ball away in the final third FFS. That's where all the problems are coming from. Januzaj, Rooney and ADM all guilty of this."
"The way things are going, Januzaj is more likely to become the next Nani than the next Ronaldo."
"Literally all Januzaj and Valencia are doing is dillydallying on the ball."
"Januzaj's been ineffective on the right."
"Januzaj is looking off the pace here, we need Herrera in."
"Stop giving the fecking ball away!"
"We need Herrera for Januzaj ASAP. Otherwise, De Gea won't be able to save us the entire match."
"Januzaj doesn't even attempt to go for the header there. Get him off"
"Januzaj has been poor."
" I don't think he possesses the speed/physicality needed to play as a modern winger."
"Not making anything from these cross field balls. Hasn't competed for one yet. Also lacks pace to be a winger imo"
"Valencia and januzaj has been really shit today"
"Adnan has been poor."

@anant About that 1.9 killer passes/90 minutes...

 

[Ji_Maria]

If we are seeing stats of these players of this season, then why Januzaj of last season? And if we are saying Januzaj is poor becasue of lack of goals, his goals/game ratio is better than that of Martial. So statistically Martial<Januzaj as per your logic

Stop making strawmans. Do I really have to spell it out for you?
1) Januzaj has been dropped by LVG for 2015-16 so we have almost no data to compare. Januzaj has played 141 minutes for MUFC this season in 2 appearances in 2015-16.
2) Januzaj has been dropped in favour of Mata/Lingard/Memphis/Martial/Rashford
3) Januzaj has been dropped because of his dire 2014-15 season, in which he had plenty of chances

My query: Was dropping Januzaj this season a correct decision?
My hypothesis: I'm trying to establish that based off of 2014-15 Januzaj, that all of Martial/Mata/Lingard/Memphis/Rashford are currently offering more than what Januzaj offered in 2014-15 and therefore dropping Januzaj in favor of other youth players was a good decision.

And to be clear, I'm not making any conclusions or statements that Martial<Januzaj at all. I am saying statistically, Januzaj of 2014-15 was absolutely dire and far worse than either Martial/Mata/Lingard/Memphis/Rashford are doing this season under key attacking metrics. This is the only conclusion I am coming to. All this other stuff you keep repeating, I don't know how you jumped to those conclusions. Martial/Memphis/Rashford/Lingard are all getting their first chance this season, and are doing far better than Januzaj of 2014-15, when he had his chance last season.

Also, Januzaj has scored 5 goals and 4 assits in over 3,000 minutes played for MUFC. Martial has 12 goals and 4 assists in under 3,000 minutes played for MUFC. In what world does Januzaj have a better goals ratio than Martial? If you want to compare just EPL, Martial has 7 goals and 3 assists in 2084 minutes this year (1 goal every 297 minutes). Januzaj in his best ever season has 4 goals and 3 assists in 1,641 minutes (1 goal ever 410 minutes). In a goal scoring/creation perspective, Martial is far better than Januzaj ever was at his peak, and the scary thing is, Martial wasn't even playing as a striker half the time. A more fair comparison would be against Mata, Lingard, Memphis and maybe Rashford. Statistically, the 2014-15 Januzaj is worse than all 4 of them as well. Now do I think Memphis or Lingard are better players than Januzaj? No. I think a peak Januzaj (13-14 form) offers more than Memphis and possibly more than Lingard. The problem is, Januzaj's most recent form has been awful, and MUFC is not a charity that has some obligation to give players a chance to "play into form." You either show it in training or whatever chances are handed to you, or you go sit on the bench.

And not a single Januzaj supporter has even begun to address the fact that similar players to him on not only our team, but on any other team (including Ross Fing Barkley) are consistently scoring goals and assists. The speak of an "obvious" talent, which sure was apparent in 2013-14, but we haven't seen at all in the past 2 years. And I posted a matchday thread from 2014-15 above just in case you needed a reminder of how he was consistently one of the worst players on the pitch for us that season.

And for the love of Pete stop saying you hate using statistics when that's all you have been throwing around this thread (you're the one who showed me how to use whoscored.com for crying out loud). They don't tell the whole story but at the same time we need something to dispel this false notion that Januzaj is still the same player he was in 2013-14. Since some of you are too darn lazy to read old matchday threads or rewatch games, I have done that for you in my above post (MUFC vs. MCFC where poor Januzaj who never gets a fair chance actually started) to refresh your memory, and have also given plenty of statistics (for whatever they're worth) showing that not only is he losing the ball and doing feck all with his chances (see MCFC game above, I can post many many more from the dire 2014-15 campaign), he is also failing to score, failing to create assists, and failing to dribble past defenders (28% or 39% depending on which source you want to believe).

2013-14 Januzaj was good, everyone knows that. 14-15 was very poor. What does that say about Januzaj now? I don't know. It's 50/50 whether he will continue his poor 14-15 form or return to 13-14. One of those two seasons was a fluke. Your guess is as good as mine which one it is. But to assume that 13-14 is the "real" Januzaj is foolish since there is absolutely no way to know unless he plays, and right now, neither LVG nor Dortmund thought Januzaj worthy of a shot at playing. Either you're wrong, or LVG and Dortmund are wrong, and there's nothing wrong with that since people make bad judgments all the time. But don't blindly assume that Januzaj will come good given the chance because in reality nobody knows for sure and at best it's a 50/50 gamble.

 

[prath92]

Obviously he has a lot of talent but as of now, there is no way he deserves to start over any of our attackers. They all have their purposes. Martial and Rashford are in better form and seem to play well mostly when they play. Lingard is tactically disciplined and is a decent finisher. He is faster and has a slightly better decision making now. Mata is more creative and seems to be in form too. At best, he can come on after 70 mins or so. Unless he does something extra ordinary in those cameos, he wouldnt start.

 

[anant]

Stop making strawmans. Do I really have to spell it out for you?
1) Januzaj has been dropped by LVG for 2015-16 so we have almost no data to compare. Januzaj has played 141 minutes for MUFC this season in 2 appearances in 2015-16.
2) Januzaj has been dropped in favour of Mata/Lingard/Memphis/Martial/Rashford
3) Januzaj has been dropped because of his dire 2014-15 season, in which he had plenty of chances

My query: Was dropping Januzaj this season a correct decision?
My hypothesis: I'm trying to establish that based off of 2014-15 Januzaj, that all of Martial/Mata/Lingard/Memphis/Rashford are currently offering more than what Januzaj offered in 2014-15 and therefore dropping Januzaj in favor of other youth players was a good decision.

And to be clear, I'm not making any conclusions or statements that Martial<Januzaj at all. I am saying statistically, Januzaj of 2014-15 was absolutely dire and far worse than either Martial/Mata/Lingard/Memphis/Rashford are doing this season under key attacking metrics. This is the only conclusion I am coming to. All this other stuff you keep repeating, I don't know how you jumped to those conclusions. Martial/Memphis/Rashford/Lingard are all getting their first chance this season, and are doing far better than Januzaj of 2014-15, when he had his chance last season.

Also, Januzaj has scored 5 goals and 4 assits in over 3,000 minutes played for MUFC. Martial has 12 goals and 4 assists in under 3,000 minutes played for MUFC. In what world does Januzaj have a better goals ratio than Martial? If you want to compare just EPL, Martial has 7 goals and 3 assists in 2084 minutes this year (1 goal every 297 minutes). Januzaj in his best ever season has 4 goals and 3 assists in 1,641 minutes (1 goal ever 410 minutes). In a goal scoring/creation perspective, Martial is far better than Januzaj ever was at his peak, and the scary thing is, Martial wasn't even playing as a striker half the time. A more fair comparison would be against Mata, Lingard, Memphis and maybe Rashford. Statistically, the 2014-15 Januzaj is worse than all 4 of them as well. Now do I think Memphis or Lingard are better players than Januzaj? No. I think a peak Januzaj (13-14 form) offers more than Memphis and possibly more than Lingard. The problem is, Januzaj's most recent form has been awful, and MUFC is not a charity that has some obligation to give players a chance to "play into form." You either show it in training or whatever chances are handed to you, or you go sit on the bench.

And not a single Januzaj supporter has even begun to address the fact that similar players to him on not only our team, but on any other team (including Ross Fing Barkley) are consistently scoring goals and assists. The speak of an "obvious" talent, which sure was apparent in 2013-14, but we haven't seen at all in the past 2 years. And I posted a matchday thread from 2014-15 above just in case you needed a reminder of how he was consistently one of the worst players on the pitch for us that season.

And for the love of Pete stop saying you hate using statistics when that's all you have been throwing around this thread (you're the one who showed me how to use whoscored.com for crying out loud). They don't tell the whole story but at the same time we need something to dispel this false notion that Januzaj is still the same player he was in 2013-14. Since some of you are too darn lazy to read old matchday threads or rewatch games, I have done that for you in my above post (MUFC vs. MCFC where poor Januzaj who never gets a fair chance actually started) to refresh your memory, and have also given plenty of statistics (for whatever they're worth) showing that not only is he losing the ball and doing feck all with his chances (see MCFC game above, I can post many many more from the dire 2014-15 campaign), he is also failing to score, failing to create assists, and failing to dribble past defenders (28% or 39% depending on which source you want to believe).

2013-14 Januzaj was good, everyone knows that. 14-15 was very poor. What does that say about Januzaj now? I don't know. It's 50/50 whether he will continue his poor 14-15 form or return to 13-14. One of those two seasons was a fluke. Your guess is as good as mine which one it is. But to assume that 13-14 is the "real" Januzaj is foolish since there is absolutely no way to know unless he plays, and right now, neither LVG nor Dortmund thought Januzaj worthy of a shot at playing. Either you're wrong, or LVG and Dortmund are wrong, and there's nothing wrong with that since people make bad judgments all the time. But don't blindly assume that Januzaj will come good given the chance because in reality nobody knows for sure and at best it's a 50/50 gamble.

All I'm pointing out is his form in the few appearances he has had isn't that bad. It's pretty unfair to use stats of januzaj of last season and compare them to stats of others of this season.
His stats when he was loaned out were possibly the most impressive that time-he was our top scorer afterall, and it had been 4 games excluding the pre season friendlies(where he was impressive) which is although not long enough to say that the player is class, but is long enough to say that the player is talentless.
He has never been a goalscorer, he has always been a decent dribbler and while his dribble success rate wasn't great last season, it has been pretty this season. And yeah, by goals/minutes, I was referring to this season only.
So the obvious question arises, a) Is the team selection this season based on last season's form? If yes, then why Lingard over Januzaj. Lingard had done nothing last season, and even if we account for the Lingard's injury, then why Lingard over Januzaj in the 1st game of last season?
And if no, then why was Januzaj loaned despite him being in promising form this season?
As far as my use of stats is concerned, I have used these sites earlier to prove that stats comparison is a hopeless way to my friends.
No one is saying he should start over Mata or Martial, nor Rashford on given form, and maybe not Lingard because of the workrate vs City. But he does deserve a lot more minutes that he is being offered now

 

[Crossie]

I agree with this, but our problem is that shots are NOT being taken. We're not even creating chances for our strikers to even take a shot on goal let alone finish them. Which for me, is de facto evidence that our creativity and ability to create chances is a mess. We keep saying Januzaj is some magical playmaker who can create chances and openings with his superb talent. Frankly, if that was the case, why are we struggling to even take a shot on goal? Why do we finish games with 1 shot on target? Where are all these chances and key passes that are being made?

I'm with you, I don't see Januzaj as the remedy for United's drought in that department. My point was that a more insightful look is necessary than just looking at goal assists (and number of appearances), and that Januzaj's stats at Dortmund in that regard aren't as poor as I subjectively perceived them.

 

[Bwuk]

I think he'll be sold in the summer.

I rate him and think he should be given a chance, but it's not going to happen sadly.

 

[Ji_Maria]

All I'm pointing out is his form in the few appearances he has had isn't that bad. It's pretty unfair to use stats of januzaj of last season and compare them to stats of others of this season.
His stats when he was loaned out were possibly the most impressive that time-he was our top scorer afterall, and it had been 4 games excluding the pre season friendlies(where he was impressive) which is although not long enough to say that the player is class, but is long enough to say that the player is talentless.
He has never been a goalscorer, he has always been a decent dribbler and while his dribble success rate wasn't great last season, it has been pretty this season. And yeah, by goals/minutes, I was referring to this season only.
So the obvious question arises, a) Is the team selection this season based on last season's form? If yes, then why Lingard over Januzaj. Lingard had done nothing last season, and even if we account for the Lingard's injury, then why Lingard over Januzaj in the 1st game of last season?
And if no, then why was Januzaj loaned despite him being in promising form this season?
As far as my use of stats is concerned, I have used these sites earlier to prove that stats comparison is a hopeless way to my friends.
No one is saying he should start over Mata or Martial, nor Rashford on given form, and maybe not Lingard because of the workrate vs City. But he does deserve a lot more minutes that he is being offered now

I think what obviously happened is LVG gave Januzaj a real shot last year, he failed, so now he is giving other youngsters a chance. These other youngsters are doing very well. The ones who arent doing well (Memphis) have also been benched.

Januzaj deserves nothing. He was absolute shiite last season and this season he was so bad that Dortmund refused to play him even for free and sent him home early. When was the last time a player from a top team on loan was sent home early (other tham injury recalls) for crying out loud. I mean how much does a team have to hate a player to end a loan early?

Listen i dont mean to sound harsh or hostile. I get your point and obviously we have differeing opinions. I say again I rate the 13-14 Januzaj but not the 14-15 Januzaj. I also dont want him walking back in the team and take chances away from Lingard or Rashford unless he shows the right attitude in training and really takes his chances this time around.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I think what obviously happened is LVG gave Januzaj a real shot last year, he failed, so now he is giving other youngsters a chance. These other youngsters are doing very well.

Januzaj deserves nothing. He was absolute shiite last season and this season he was so bad that Dortmund refused to play him even for free and sent him home early. When was the last time a player from a top team on loan was sent home early (other tham injury recalls) for crying out loud.

@Crossie @do.ob Is this poster even correct about Januzaj this season? Because, his mind partially being in Manchester as your manager said aside, whenever I saw him he looked fairly good. Definitely nothing like some of the shocking performances we saw from Memphis this season.

 

[dirkey]

@Crossie @do.ob Is this poster even correct about Januzaj this season? Because, his mind partially being in Manchester as your manager said aside, whenever I saw him he looked fairly good. Definitely nothing like some of the shocking performances we saw from Memphis this season.

I didn't think he looked good early in the year. First game of the season he scored a nice goal. Other than that I thought he was pretty average to poor, making a lot of bad decisions. I'd agree he didn't do as badly as some of the terrible performances we saw from Memphis. However, I'd also say he didn't do as well, or anywhere near as well, as some of the great performances (albeit few and far between) we saw from Memphis. You also have to give some leeway to the fact Memphis is coming into a new league & country, in my opinion.
But at the end of the day, we haven't seen much of Memphis for a while, so it's not like he's flavour of the month either.

 

[caisenma]

with this thread... i have created a monster.

 

[Shimo]

Right now his biggest problem is LVG. He sees him as a striker of sorts and he really isn't. He did the same thing with Nani before he sent him packing and is doing the same thing with Memphis though Memphis of the 3 is the closest to that.

He is not an out and out goal scorer but, can score goals but, his biggest strengths are his ability on the ball. He needs to be played either as a wide forward or as pseudo-#10 with a license to roam on either wing and get beyond the striker as needed. But, as I said - don't think LVG will use him like that, so he needs to bide his time till he gets a manager that will use him in the right way.

 

[do.ob]

@Crossie @do.ob Is this poster even correct about Januzaj this season? Because, his mind partially being in Manchester as your manager said aside, whenever I saw him he looked fairly good. Definitely nothing like some of the shocking performances we saw from Memphis this season.

Depends on what you expect. He showed a lot of promising moments and never looked terrible, because you could always see his talent in handlong the ball, but on the flipside it also never seemed as though he fully grasped what Dortmunds football is about.
So I wouldn't rule out that Tuchel saw him as a lost cause in terms of mental attributes (understanding/reading of situations and the game or positional awareness).

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Depends on what you expect. He showed a lot of promising moments and never looked terrible, because you could always see his talent in handlong the ball, but on the flipside it also never seemed as though he fully grasped what Dortmunds football is about.
So I wouldn't rule out that Tuchel saw him as a lost cause in terms of mental attributes (understanding/reading of situations and the game or positional awareness).

That's what I always felt when I saw him, which is why that posters comments were suprising.

 

[shabadu84]

Still young enough that 2 wasted seasons can be overcome but the odds are slimmer than ever now. If we sell Mata, I think he can get his chance but with Lingard, Memphis, and likely new signings on the wings I can't see him getting a chance out wide.

 

[Crossie]

@Crossie @do.ob Is this poster even correct about Januzaj this season? Because, his mind partially being in Manchester as your manager said aside, whenever I saw him he looked fairly good. Definitely nothing like some of the shocking performances we saw from Memphis this season.

Where @Ji_Maria is wrong: Dortmund sent Januzaj home. That's not correct. It was Januzaj's wish to return earlier, and in the end, Dortmund gave in. Most probably because two boys from our academy who can play on the wing were ready for their debut and Tuchel deemed the risk of playing two eager 17-year olds manageable.

Regarding Januzaj's performance, I'm not as positive as do.ob but not as negative as Ji_Maria either. I thought that Januazaj's performances were overall okay-ish, with some better moments, but also many selfish moments (e.g. unnecessary dribblings, shooting when passing would have been better) or in which his positional play was poor. In his last match for Dortmund, the whole team played shite but he managed to stand out negatively. That - and because it was one of the few games in which Januzaj started - may be the reason why the overall memory of Januzaj's performance is negative.

 

[khoazany]

That's what I always felt when I saw him, which is why that posters comments were suprising.

Some people don't realize that you can't just use stats to judge very young players with their tendency to be inconsistent.Just...well...watch them perhaps and have your own opinion.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Where @Ji_Maria is wrong: Dortmund sent Januzaj home. That's not correct. It was Januzaj's wish to return earlier, and in the end, Dortmund gave in. Most probably because two boys from our academy who can play on the wing were ready for their debut and Tuchel deemed the risk of playing two eager 17-year olds manageable.

Regarding Januzaj's performance, I'm not as positive as do.ob but not as negative as Ji_Maria either. I thought that Januazaj's performances were overall okay-ish, with some better moments, but also many selfish moments (e.g. unnecessary dribblings, shooting when passing would have been better) or in which his positional play was poor. In his last match for Dortmund, the whole team played shite but he managed to stand out negatively. That - and because it was one of the few games in which Januazaj started - may be the reason why the overall memory of Januzaj's performance is negative.

Absolutely. I don't think anyone will advocate that he was amazing for Dortmund or anything, but apart from the last match which I heard was awful, generally it was the case of a young player whose ability and class on the ball was obvious, but who also struggled to impose himself on games, have the end product matching his talent and of course needed to improve his decision making, as is often the case with young kids.

My point was that he wasn't "so bad" for Dortmund. "So bad" for me were the performances Memphis was consistently putting out for good stretches of this season, where you wondered if he was actually a PL level player. Everyone has seen those displays, where a player looks lost and unfit for the stage he's playing at. Januzaj gets that tag even when he's alright.

That's why I think the Januzaj discussion seems to oscillate between the silly and the ridiculous. The average performances he puts out are viewed as abominations. MAybe it has to do with how good he was in 13/14 but it's slightly unfair IMO.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Some people don't realize that you can't just use stats to judge very young players with their tendency to be inconsistent.

Absolutely. I was in fact going to write earlier that these "stat-fests", while are useful, are more appropriate when comparing more experienced/established players.

 

[Crossie]

@amolbhatia50k
I get your point, I think. As a more neutral person, I'm under the impression though that some users are so in love with the idea that a United academy player plays an important role that Januzaj's talent and game is always judged upon very generously. I'm obviously exaggerating but it seems at it's never Januzaj's fault that he doesn't get as many minutes as he wants to or if he's not playing that well: It's the coach, the role, team mates, stellar constellation, whatever. A bit like those parents who are convinced their kid is a genius and come up with all sorts of excuses why it isn't obvious to everyone.

Talent alone doesn't cut it in football, Januzaj is so far a prime example for that.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I think there is some real amount of confusion over here with people arguing over various things:

Set 1: People who think Januzaj has immense talent to be getting starts for Utd

Set 2: Januzaj should be given more starts because Utd were patient with Memphis and Lingard who clearly are not doing any better if not worse

Set 3: Januzaj has been tried and does not have what it takes to be a good Utd player. Almost everyone is at his level or more.

Set 4: Januzaj has been bang average and does not seem to have the attitude to be any better. So no point in giving him a chance.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

@amolbhatia50k
I get your point, I think. As a more neutral person, I'm under the impression though that some users are so in love with the idea that a United academy player plays an important role that Januzaj's talent and game is always judged upon very generously. I'm obviously exaggerating but it seems at it's never Januzaj's fault that he doesn't get as many minutes as he wants to or if he's not playing that well: It's the coach, the role, team mates, stellar constellation, whatever. A bit like those parents who are convinced their kid is a genius and come up with all sorts of excuses why it isn't obvious to everyone.

Talent alone doesn't cut it in football, Januzaj is so far a prime example for that.

Personally I definitely think a lot of it is down to him. He has to make his career after all, he is never going to get to the top without proving he's a top player. At the same time, I do think we have a place in our squad and starts on a rotational basis, for him. Especially in the state we have been this season. We give to starts to Fellaini ffs

 

[RedDevil@84]

Personally I definitely think a lot of it is down to him. He has to make his career after all, he is never going to get to the top without proving he's a top player. At the same time, I do think we have a place in our squad and starts on a rotational basis, for him. Especially in the state we have been this season. We give to starts to Fellaini ffs

Fellaini is starting because LvG sees something useful in him (based on the great game plan) which no one else sees.
Firstly, we have to finalize Januzaj's best position and analyze his competitors for the spot. Is it on RW (Lingard, Mata) or in the middle (Mata again, sometimes Rooney, sometimes Herrera)

 

[Ji_Maria]

Where @Ji_Maria is wrong: Dortmund sent Januzaj home. That's not correct. It was Januzaj's wish to return earlier, and in the end, Dortmund gave in. Most probably because two boys from our academy who can play on the wing were ready for their debut and Tuchel deemed the risk of playing two eager 17-year olds manageable.

I'm asking because I simply don't know. Isn't a loan contract a bilateral agreement between the lending team and the receiving team? I.e., you set a fixed period, payment terms, and basically that player becomes the receiving team's player until the end of the term?

Even if Januzaj didn't want to play and was clamoring to go back, Dortmund could have held on to him and held him (and MUFC) to his contract, from my understanding. Just like how we were stuck with Falcao for the entire season and how Chelsea are stuck with him now (despite him being out injured and never playing).

I mean, if Dortmund rated Januzaj, why wouldn't they hold onto him at least as a backup? What does Dortmund have to lose by holding onto Januzaj? I think the following quote really says it all: "It is a pity he did not show the desire and attitude you need to progress at his age"

And yeah, I apologize for being overly harsh on Januzaj. I really rated him in 2013-14, and what I hate most in football are players who have talent and squander it with a poor attitude or sense of entitlement.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Fellaini is starting because LvG sees something useful in him (based on the great game plan) which no one else sees.
Firstly, we have to finalize Januzaj's best position and analyze his competitors for the spot. Is it on RW (Lingard, Mata) or in the middle (Mata again, sometimes Rooney, sometimes Herrera)

Taking that into account, I think he should have been kept this season and given gametime. Our options in the the #10 and RW position are bang average.

 

[Crossie]

Personally I definitely think a lot of it is down to him. He has to make his career after all, he is never going to get to the top without proving he's a top player. At the same time, I do think we have a place in our squad and starts on a rotational basis, for him. Especially in the state we have been this season. We give to starts to Fellaini ffs

I know, it's ... interesting. Has any journalist ever probed LvG as to what he sees in Fellaini? Specific skills? Tactical understanding? Whatever?

I'm asking because I simply don't know. Isn't a loan contract a bilateral agreement between the lending team and the receiving team? I.e., you set a fixed period, payment terms, and basically that player becomes the receiving team's player until the end of the term?

Correct.

Even if Januzaj didn't want to play and was clamoring to go back, Dortmund could have held on to him and held him (and MUFC) to his contract, from my understanding. Just like how we were stuck with Falcao for the entire season and how Chelsea are stuck with him now (despite him being out injured and never playing).

It isn't reported that Januzaj didn't want to play. He didnt get game time and was, naturally, unhappy about it. Some time in November, I'd say, first reports appeared that Tuchel was seriously annoyed with his attitude in training. Around the same time, rumors appeared that Januzaj could return to United already in winter. That's when the DoF said they have no intention to let him return earlier.

I mean, if Dortmund rated Januzaj, why wouldn't they hold onto him at least as a backup? What does Dortmund have to lose by holding onto Januzaj? I think the following quote really says it all: "It is a pity he did not show the desire and attitude you need to progress at his age"

Tuchel rated Januzaj's talent. With his attitude and wish to return to MUFC, however, it wasn't worth to hold on to him. Why invest in a player who won't be playing for you beyond the summer if you have two hopeful prospects from your own academy who are itching to prove themselves and will (hopefully) be with the club for a longer time?

 

[Perrick Dubois]

I think he'll be sold in the summer.

I rate him and think he should be given a chance, but it's not going to happen sadly.

If there is a change of manager then he will more than likely stay. He seems to be highly regarded by the club itself (Giggs/Joyce, Coaches and co.) but not by Van Gaal.

 

[Balu]

Absolutely. I don't think anyone will advocate that he was amazing for Dortmund or anything, but apart from the last match which I heard was awful, generally it was the case of a young player whose ability and class on the ball was obvious, but who also struggled to impose himself on games, have the end product matching his talent and of course needed to improve his decision making, as is often the case with young kids.

I think that he tried to do that was a big part of his struggles. He looked completely out of sync with his teammates and tried to impose himself on games when that's not what the manager wanted from him or what the team needed from him.

My impression was that he was good in the first few weeks at Dortmund despite fitness issues, because he was just playing his own game and because he was used in less important matches against weaker opponents (he only started EL group stage matches, never in a domestic game) or as a sub late in games. And because he was new to the team, everyone gave him some leeway and was excited because his talent on the ball isn't in question. It got consistently worse from there though. He never clicked with his teammates, got less and less playing time when the games became more important and looked less confident. You would have expected him to understand the tactics better and fit in better with every passing month, but that never happened. Even quality individual moments became very rare. There were rumours at a time that he struggled to understand and adapt to Tuchel's tactics and looking at his time at Dortmund and under van Gaal, that might actually be a really big problem. It wasn't just his decision making on the ball that was mostly awful, his movement off the ball, his positioning in Dortmund's pressing were completely off as well. He was constantly in the wrong place.

Maybe his talent is big enough to overcome these issues under a manager who prefers a more individualistic approach in attack. Mourinho would certainly fall into this category, he builds his teams around defensive organisation and tactical freedom in attack. Though even Mourinho demands discipline and defensive workrate from his attacking players.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I think that he tried to do that was a big part of his struggles. He looked completely out of sync with his teammates and tried to impose himself on games when that's not what the manager wanted from him or what the team needed from him.

My impression was that he was good in the first few weeks at Dortmund despite fitness issues, because he was just playing his own game and because he was used in less important matches against weaker opponents (he only started EL group stage matches, never in a domestic game) or as a sub late in games. And because he was new to the team, everyone gave him some leeway and was excited because his talent on the ball isn't in question. It got consistently worse from there though. He never clicked with his teammates, got less and less playing time when the games became more important and looked less confident. You would have expected him to understand the tactics better and fit in better with every passing month, but that never happened. Even quality individual moments became very rare. There were rumours at a time that he struggled to understand and adapt to Tuchel's tactics and looking at his time at Dortmund and under van Gaal, that might actually be a really big problem. It wasn't just his decision making on the ball that was mostly awful, his movement off the ball, his positioning in Dortmund's pressing were completely off as well. He was constantly in the wrong place.

Maybe his talent is big enough to overcome these issues under a manager who prefers a more individualistic approach in attack. Mourinho would certainly fall into this category, he builds his teams around defensive organisation and tactical freedom in attack. Though even Mourinho demands discipline and defensive workrate from his attacking players.

Hopefully all of it falls into place under the nexy manager. He's got so much ability on the ball it would be a shame for that to be wasted due him lacking tactically.

It's interesting though because SAF's whole football model, while did of course require hard work and effort was to let attackers lose and give them freedom to take charge, as well give them attacking leeway. So in a sense it's possibly also Januzaj's education of being more individualistic which affects him negatively under LVG or a system oreinted team like Dortmund. At the same time, you'd expect a Paul Scholes or Evra or any top player to adapt to whatever the manager needs, tactically. So the onus on him to prove he's not just a player that's "good on the ball" but a "good footballer".

 

[FromTheBench]

His most stupid decision was to go on loan to Dortmund of all places. And it's also LVG's and United's fault for agreeing to it even if he insisted.

He was starting for United actually in every game almost before LVG decided suddenly to loan him, so i think it came as a surprise to Januzaj given his comments and his Ego he wanted to go to a strong team like Dortmund to prove him wrong.

He should have gone to lower team where he would have been given time and individualistic leeway with others putting in the shift for him. At Dortmund he didn't fit in tactically and let's be honest they never had the patience to bear his inconsistencies like they might do with their own youngsters.

If he had 1 really bad game like his last one he was dropped for a while. When infact he did have potential to have a very good game the next match.

 

[dirkey]

Some people don't realize that you can't just use stats to judge very young players with their tendency to be inconsistent.Just...well...watch them perhaps and have your own opinion.

I'd agree with this to an extent. However, there are plenty of us who did do this, judged him with our own eyes, and thought he was being hugely overrated on here. But, you can't say that to his supporters or you get "You're an idiot if you can't see his ability" type responses. Yep, we can see the guy has ability. But, we can also see his decision making has been generally appalling, he has been selfish as @Crossie mentioned above he also was in regard to his Dortmund performances, and his recent performances for us have not warranted inclusion. Yet, we're constantly hit with "He deserves a shot" or "Louis is a joke for not playing him" or "It's criminal that he doesn't get a shot".

Like I said, we can then point out that he really hasn't influenced games (bar a nice finish in the Villa game) for 2 years. But that's met with the usual "You're an idiot if you can't see his ability". At this point, I can understand why people bring up stats. It's something at least concrete.

 

[dirkey]

@amolbhatia50k
I get your point, I think. As a more neutral person, I'm under the impression though that some users are so in love with the idea that a United academy player plays an important role that Januzaj's talent and game is always judged upon very generously. I'm obviously exaggerating but it seems at it's never Januzaj's fault that he doesn't get as many minutes as he wants to or if he's not playing that well: It's the coach, the role, team mates, stellar constellation, whatever. A bit like those parents who are convinced their kid is a genius and come up with all sorts of excuses why it isn't obvious to everyone.

Talent alone doesn't cut it in football, Januzaj is so far a prime example for that.

This! Oh my God, so this. Well put Crossie.

This is absolutely the way I feel it. It's the Welbeck syndrome all over again. Just because he's an academy graduate, he's hugely overhyped in my opinion.

 

[dirkey]

I think there is some real amount of confusion over here with people arguing over various things:

Set 1: People who think Januzaj has immense talent to be getting starts for Utd

Set 2: Januzaj should be given more starts because Utd were patient with Memphis and Lingard who clearly are not doing any better if not worse

Set 3: Januzaj has been tried and does not have what it takes to be a good Utd player. Almost everyone is at his level or more.

Set 4: Januzaj has been bang average and does not seem to have the attitude to be any better. So no point in giving him a chance.

This isn't far off correct I'd say, regarding the pieces. I'd say there's a few things I'd disagree with.

2: I think Lingard has been doing better than Adnan. Lingard isn't spectacular, but he's very solid. Also, gets into positions to set things up, and to score goals. I think Adnan's biggest problem is that he messes things up a lot by trying too much, trying to beat too many players, being selfish etc. I think if people think Lingard isn't doing better than Adnan, they're thinking about year 1 Adnan, not years 2 and 3. Memphis had his great moments. I think it's unfair not to recognise that. Don't get me wrong, he was absolutely abysmal at times, but he did have some great moments. It's been a long time since Adnan did. Even still, we're not seeing much of Memphis these days, so I don't feel he's being treated much differently to Adnan. We also don't know how both of their attitudes are, and there have been huge rumblings as to Adnan's bad attitude, from more than 1 source, so this could be a very big reason Memphis gets on the bench more, and gets more minutes. He could also be showing more in training.

4: I wouldn't say no point giving him a chance. I think people feel he has to earn it. He has to show it in training, then he has to take his chances when given them in the first team. This is probably the camp I'm in, in that regard. I do feel the guy has tons of ability. But he needs to learn to use it, and he needs to grab his chance. I definitely don't feel he deserves a shot, just because of his ability.

 

[ottosec]

He's one poor pre-season away from being shipped out.

What a disappointment this guy has been in the last couple of years. I thought we struck gold in his first season, but it looks like he's just another Kiko Macheda.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Put it this way, if his name was Adam James instead of Adnan Januzaj, he'd probably get the Tom Cleverley treatment.

 

[Bwuk]

Put it this way, if his name was Adam James instead of Adnan Januzaj, he'd probably get the Tom Cleverley treatment.

No he wouldn't.

No-one cares about people's names.

 

[In Rainbows]

Put it this way, if his name was Adam James instead of Adnan Januzaj, he'd probably get the Tom Cleverley treatment.

Nope.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

I dont know, I feel people are more lenient on players that are not British for some reason... not so much here on the caf but just generally.