5 goals in 9 games, is surely a great return, I could be wrong but didn't Januzaj do the same when he came into first team. Short memory and flavour of the month I guess.
15
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 7
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 1
- Status
5 goals in 9 games, is surely a great return, I could be wrong but didn't Januzaj do the same when he came into first team. Short memory and flavour of the month I guess.
Dear lord. Goals aren't what makes a complete performance. You're completely biased and I suggest you watch those games again. Rashford has done great since playing for the first team, but his performances weren't as complete or as dominant as Adnan's great games. One thing that I will give him credit for is his goals against the top sides. That's impressive. I think Rashford's looked a lot more comfortable at the first team level the past 2 games despite only scoring 1 goal compared to the 4 other goals in 2 game performances when he first came up. That's a good sign.
Oh and I don't think Adnan should have played today either. Thought work rate was important so I was completely in favor of keeping Lingard on.
I find comments like this laughable. In Adnan's first season, which we'd all agree was his only good season, he played 1740 minutes, scored 4 goals and had 3 assists.
This season, Jesse has played 1738 minutes. He scored 4 goals, and had 3 assists.
Jesse is also much better defensively, more disciplined, and in my opinion makes far better decisions. Obviously the latter is just my opinion.
Why do people believe there's such a huge difference between what the two of them produce?
Stats from whoscored.com
Because stats aren't all there is to a performance. There were multiple times where he didn't score or assist, but still was the team's best player.
That makes no sense at all. You've just confirmed Lingard hasn't done anything more than Januzaj (who was much younger at the time). Im questioning why one of them starts every match and the other doesn't get a look in. Hardly difficult to understand that opinion even if you disagree with it.
It makes perfect sense. Your comment was that Lingard doesn't do much. I've pointed out that he does the exact same from an attacking point of view as Januzaj, whilst being a much more disciplined team player.
One isn't currently getting a look in because it has been 2 years since he showed good form. 1 is in because he's showing semi competent attacking play, whilst helping the team from a defensive aspect, and keeping the shape better up front.
I'm not saying Jesse is a better player, but to say he "doesn't do much" is just completely incorrect.
I agree, stats aren't all there is to a performance. However, the comment I was replying to stated that Lingard doesn't do much. That's wrong in my opinion. Statistically, he does just as much as Adnan did when Adnan showed the best form of his career. This, by the way, was 2 years ago. Until he starts showing he's capable of doing what Jesse is currently doing, he doesn't deserve to come back into the team. Obviously in training, he's not doing that.
Rashford scored as much in 2 months as Januzaj in total for Man United.
He should get a chance on the right. Mata is not exactly pulling up trees, so let's see what Adnan can do.
Its all it deserves.
Mata played well today, but I'm desperate to see what a front four of Rashford (ST), Martial (LW), Lingard (CAM) and Januzaj (RW) can produce.
Hmm, that would be interesting, or even Januzaj in the middle and Lingard on the right for tracking back.
Dear lord, Rashford won the Arsenal and Manchester City games for us. If that isn't a "complete performance," I really don't know what is. He's played far fewer minutes and games for us than Januzaj, and he has literally taken the bull by the horns and scored crucial winners for us.
Januzaj NEVER did that even in 2013-14, his supposed "break-out" season. Call me biased, why don't you show me concrete evidence where he won big games for us, EVER. I suggest you read the matchday threads from 2014-2015 if you think he was anything but piss poor last season.
Macheda scored ONE winner for us and then that was it. Rashford kept us in the Europa league longer than we deserved to be in it, and the sole reason we are within touching distance of Top 4 is because of Rashford winning us VERY tough games against Arsenal and City (away). If we somehow miraculously get top 4 this season, it will be because of Rashford.
Januzaj contributed ZERO to our top 4 finish last year, and despite his best efforts under Moyes, we still ended up in 7th. Goals and assists win games, and Januzaj is weak in that department. He's an attacking player afterall. And let's not forget that he was an absolute massive defensive liability in 2014-2015. Almost every possession he had last year resulted in an errant pass or simple dispossession by tackle when he tried to dribble past 3 defenders.
Pogba is the only one I can realistically think of in recent years. All the other youngsters we got rid of were the right decision. Anyone remember Chris Eagles? He sure looked good in the 2007 pre-season.
You aren't well aware of this player that. Goal and assists is a big part of his game. Now whether or not he is a Man United level player is what is in questions here I think he definitely can be, others think he can't but the only way to find out is to play him more and see if he is up to it.
But he is a goal scorer and play maker.
3,175 minutes played in the EPL, CL and Europa. 5 goals and 5 assists.
Great goal scorer and play maker that. Not trying to be snide, but he has gotten over 3,000 minutes of senior game time for MUFC (not including his FA cup or other appearances). That's a LOT of fecking chances. To produce only 5 goals and 5 assists out of all those minutes, that's crazy piss poor for a club with standards and ambitions like MUFC.
Let's compare Januzaj to his primary competitors for a spot on the team:
Lingard: 1,737 minutes EPL, CL and Europa: 6 goals and 4 assists
Rashford: 560 minutes EPL and Europa: 5 goals and 1 assist
Martial: 3,203 minutes EPL, CL and Europa: 13 goals and 8 assists
Memphis: 2,012 minutes EPL, CL and Europa: 7 goals and 6 assists
I'm not even getting started when you start talking about being a defensive liability or breaking up our attacks.
Last season Januzaj had something like an 80% pass completion (compared to say 90% for Mata, a similar attacking player).
Januzaj also completed only 27.8% of his dribbles, an astonishingly low percentage (compared to say 43% for Mata). That means that a shocking 72.2% of the time that Januzaj attempted to dribble the ball, he lost the ball. How is this even remotely considered acceptable standards for a senior MUFC side? This is shockingly bad, and for me, this is why I believe he has been dropped by both MUFC and Dortmund. You simply can't have a player running around at the highest level losing the ball this much.
Januzaj also averaged something like 33 passes per game, compared to Mata with say 50 passes per game.
Januzaj also averaged something like 1.4 chances created per game, compared to say 1.9 for Mata.
Summary: on paper, Januzaj is by far the worst attacking player out of the contenders. If the lad can't dribble, well he'd better be passing or shooting the ball. Unfortunately he doesn't even pass that much compared to his peers, and when he does he has a bad completion percentage, and obviously he can't shoot to score to save his life.
Now I'm not saying he's not talented, he clearly is. But he has been playing very poorly for quite some time. MUFC has given the lad plenty of chances (3000+ minutes, more than any of his peers). Januzaj simply did not take his chances, and more worryingly, he constantly disrupted our attacks, broke up our plays, and kept gifting the other side the ball. He can't score? Fine. But at a minimum, do not be a massive defensive liability.
You can blame LVG, you can blame his age, whatever. The fact is he looks SCARED when he's playing. Compare to Rashford and Martial - absolutely fearless in the face of any opposition.
p.s. Januzaj has zero goals and zero assists for his national team. Go figure.
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He also scored a winner in the next game away to Sunderland. He was a catalyst for our title charge
You're right - feck how do you even remember something like that. I forgot we even had that hideous blue kit back then.
Ji Maria doesnt rate Januzaj it would appear, gang.
Seems that big rectangular thing at the end of the grassy field with all the netting and made of wood with a tall hairy man wearing funny gloves standing in front of it doesn't rate Januzaj either.
Just saying.
I remember watching that game and thinking we're really on to something with him. The goal was a deflected shot but it was deserved. Late in the game too IIRC
Great finish against Everton in 06/07.
Now a League 1 player and is 30. Feck we're old.
Give us his goals, assists and minutes in his first season and then let's compare how they stack up.
Comparing his stats under Van Gaal, who has managed him terribly and made a mess of his development is not an apt comparison. Minutes just add up when you are used sparingly and have limited opportunities to make those goals and assists.
2,055 minutes (EPL and CL only), 4 goals and 4 assists. Still the worst out of the lot in terms of goals scored and assists. I've already posted above on his atrocious successful dribbles and chances created per game.
If you want to draw conclusions, I really would like to know based on what? Because all you seem to be saying is, "he's been dropped by both LVG and Dortmund (who have both claimed he has an attitude problem) and playing like sh*t so therefore LVG has mismanaged him!" Frankly it is a very weird conclusion to draw based on the facts. We have absolutely no evidence anywhere that LVG has mismanaged him or that Januzaj has been treated poorly. Heck, Januzaj wanted to leave Dortmund to go back to MUFC early.
Stats, being dropped, etc., don't tell the whole story I get that. And goals/assists don't tell the whole picture. Even the fact that the only two professional managers who have ever managed him in his senior career in two different leagues have dropped him isn't by itself damming. Or the fact that his goal scoring and assists are below that of his same-age peer group at MUFC. We have established that his ball retention and loss of ball is frankly criminal (23% successful dribble for a professional footballer on 50K a week?), but hey, stuff happens right? What I'm trying to say is, based on what I just wrote, how is it even remotely within the realm of reason that your initial conclusion is "oh he's just being poorly managed and getting bad treatment and none of this is his fault at all." It's just so baffling. It's so much more reasonable to conclude, based on the above, that the truth is more likely that Januzaj is having some kind of mental or confidence issue and is therefore playing like crap and therefore LVG and Dortmund have dropped him, resulting in this vicious cycle where he loses even more confidence.
You also need to acknowledge the very real possibility, that he was just a flash in the pan. Was he one of our best players in 2013-14? Of course. But then being a 5'7" horse jockey doesn't exactly make you tall does it?
THEN, maybe we can have an honest discussion of whether LVG should help Januzaj get his confidence back by playing him consistently as a starter. I think Januzaj should get that shot to be honest, but it would be equally reasonable to say, "hey, he's had his chance, we need to get 4th, so we can't afford to take this risk right now so maybe next season." I would tend to let both Januzaj and Pereira play until the rest of the season, but at the same time I realize blaming LVG for Januzaj playing like absolute wank last season is completely irrational.
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Are you done editing?
Writing on my iphone so lots of typos and bad copying and pasting. Now do you actually have something to say or is this your attempt at being non-responsive?
Nothing to say at all? OK.
Let me ask you this: how would you feel about MUFC playing a forward/winger who will lose the ball over 2/3 of the time he gets it and will score no goals and get no assists to show for it? If it was anybody but Januzaj, everyone would be screaming for that player to be benched. Just because it's Januzaj, suddenly it becomes LVG's fault that he's not playing well/at all. Baffling.
2 winners. Rashford was good in that game and also arsenal and City games, Agreed. BUt wasn't the pressure on Macheda higher! He has equal chances of turning out to be a macheda as of turning into a great striker.
Januzaj was hardly used last year. He has clocked minutes, but they were accumulated by playing last 10 minutes of a game. If we finish 6th this season, or 7th or even 8th, would you say Martial had a poor season because despite his best efforts we didnt finish in top 4. You sound like a person who just cares about stats. YEsterday, Martial was IMO among top 3 players. Yet he didn't get any goals or assists. Mata IMO was the best player vs Stoke. He had a hand in all 3 goals. Was the provider of the pass that result in assist (pre-assist), yet he had 0 goals, 0assists that game.
A player who was arguably the team's top 3 outfield players the season before finding his place under threat from ADM, will obviously be more selfish to prove himself to the boss. Thats human nature after all.
IMO scoring the winner against City away against an extremely hostile crowd is about as high pressure as it can get. Not to mention the brace against Arsenal.
This is one of the big myths of redcafe. Januzaj played 1,025 senior minutes last year in 21 appearances (average 49 minutes per appearance). You can't accumulate 1,025 minutes worth of "10 minute sub appearances." Sorry, just not true. Defending Januzaj is fine, but last year he played plenty and has nothing to show for it. Let me repeat, 1,025 senior minutes in 21 senior appearances, zero goals, zero assists, 23% dribble completion and 1.4 chances created per game.
First off, no, I wouldn't say Martial had a poor season. I don't care where we finish in relation to an individual player's performance. I never claimed that and I never will. If you notice, I never came out and said "Januzaj is crap and was always crap." I'm saying, he's playing poorly, and objectively speaking, he's not producing goals or assists. Stats aren't everything as I took great pains to point out many many times. The only one I actually care about is that he's only completing 23% or so of his dribbles. If you read the matchday threads from last season, the comments are FILLED with posts about how often Januzaj is making a stupid decision and losing possession in dangerous areas. That's dangerous for us.
This comparison is logically flawed, because both Martial and Mata actually have scored far more many goals and provided far more many assists than Januzaj has. You can cherry-pick single games where neither got on the scoresheet, but on the whole, on average, players who consistently create great attacking performances score goals and assists. I can't think of a single highly regarded attacking player who isn't racking up goals/assists at will. Ozil is on 18 EPL assists this season. I mean, even Tom Cleverley has a better goal/assist haul (per minutes played) than Januzaj.
Players who were arguably completely unknowns (Rashford) will obviously be more selfish to take his one and only chance, and guess what, Rashford took that chance. Why couldn't Januzaj?
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Great post
Those stats are similar to his peers who have played this season under VG (Barring Martial, who is an absolute superstar). Rashford is not an apt comparison either since he is playing as an out and out striker.
Why did we go from comparing him to his peers to Mata suddenly? Is the plan to compare him with the best stats in each category to project him as a terrible player?
I am not posting "casual observation", I make observations based on watching every Manchester United game and supporting this club. I put much credence into that than stat comparison, which can be casually shifted from his peers to Mata to make a point.
Why I say Van Gaal has mismanaged him, is because Depay, who has only looked good in three games against terrible opposition, was afforded chance after chance, while Januzaj wasn't given the same luxury. The focus last season was on Galacticos signings and stupid formations, and this season he was sent out on loan after performing reasonably well in the first 4 games of the season. As for the loan, they are a crap shoot most of the time. BVB got him as a squad pad up and did not use him much. Tuchel also did not make any scathing observations on Januzaj. He said, that the players mind wasn't focused, which can happen when a young player is not getting opportunities and loses direction.
I am not saying that Januzaj doesn't share any blame in this. He wasn't wise in choosing BVB as his loan destination; should have gone to a lower PL or a championship club. If the reports of attitude issues are true, then he needs to put his head down and work harder.
Using stats against him as per your convenience is doing a disservice to the player. You can use them however you want. I can go on and say that Rashford has not scored in 5 of the 8 games he has started for us, which would be equally stupid.
Cool, not only can you accurately read LVG's mind, you can also sense my state of mind over the internet. MI6 should hire you immediately.
Fair play for the long and detailed factual posts. They certainly do add to the debate.
At the same time, I think it's important to understand why people think so highly of the player Januzaj can potentially be. I don't think there's a soul here, an admirer of his abilities or otherwise, who will tell you that Adnan Januzaj has good end product. He doesn't. Everyone knows that. But what he does have is the sort of natural talent that very few do, and of course the experience of having starred in the first team displaying that. He has had a couple of indifferent years now, but fans will always want an elite talent to be given chances. Especially when you have someone like Lingard starting every game in our team. To compare the two, and solely focus on end product, would be to be missing the kind of player Januzaj is. Lingard certainly is further in his development and has a knack of popping up with a goal or assist every now and then. Januzaj, however, is far more likely to hurt his opposing defender through his skill and technical quality, during most of the game.
I'm not sure how reasonable that would be given he hasn't had his chance this season at all. He was daft in deciding on Dortmund but when he did play in the 1st 4 games he didn't do any worse than Lingard has been. He scored a winner and showed glimses of quality along whilst drifting out of games. He certainly didn't do as bad some of the laughable displays Memphis has had for us this season. And that's the crux of the matter. It frustrates people that Januzaj isn't afforded the same leeway as we allow many other players given he's one of our most talented.
If it's an attitude issue, then of course he hasn't a leg to stand on, and must sort that out if he wants to play for United.
I hate pulling statistics and I didn't want to do it for all of Lingard, Martial and Rashford. I happen to recall Mata from somewhere so I just used his numbers for chances created and pass completion.
I don't actually disagree with anything you just wrote, other than the Depay comparison, since Depay has been dropped and has only average 55 minutes per appearance this season (compare to 49 minutes for Januzaj last season).
Hull May 24, 2015 Prem D 0-0 Substitute 0
Arsenal May 17, 2015 Prem D 1-1 Unused Substitute
C Palace May 9, 2015 Prem W 1-2 Unused Substitute
West Brom May 2, 2015 Prem L 0-1 Unused Substitute
Everton Apr 26, 2015 Prem L 3-0 Unused Substitute
Chelsea Apr 18, 2015 Prem L 1-0 Sub-On 69 min
Man City Apr 12, 2015 Prem W 4-2 Unused Substitute
Aston Villa Apr 4, 2015 Prem W 3-1 Unused Substitute
Liverpool Mar 22, 2015 Prem W 1-2 Unused Substitute
Tottenham Mar 15, 2015 Prem W 3-0 Unused Substitute
Arsenal Mar 9, 2015 FAC L 1-2 Sub-On 72 min
Newcastle Mar 4, 2015 Prem W 0-1 Substitute
Sunderland Feb 28, 2015 Prem W 2-0 Substitute
Swansea Feb 21, 2015 Prem L 2-1 Unused Substitute
Preston Feb 16, 2015 FAC W 1-3 Unused Substitute
Burnley Feb 11, 2015 Prem W 3-1 Started
West Ham Feb 8, 2015 Prem D 1-1 Started
Leicester Jan 31, 2015 Prem W 3-1 Started
Cambridge Jan 23, 2015 FAC D 0-0 Started
QPR Jan 17, 2015 Prem W 0-2 Unused Substitute
Yeovil Jan 4, 2015 FAC W 0-2 Unused Substitute
Stoke Jan 1, 2015 Prem D 1-1 Substitute
Aston Villa Dec 20, 2014 Prem D 1-1 Unused Substitute
Liverpool Dec 14, 2014 Prem W 3-0 Unused Substitute
Southampton Dec 8, 2014 Prem W 1-2 Unused Substitute
Stoke Dec 2, 2014 Prem W 2-1 Sub-On 90 min
Hull Nov 29, 2014 Prem W 3-0 Unused Substitute
Arsenal Nov 22, 2014 Prem W 1-2 Unused Substitute
C Palace Nov 8, 2014 Prem W 1-0 Sub-Off 62 min
Man City Nov 2, 2014 Prem L 1-0 Sub-Off 42 min
Chelsea Oct 26, 2014 Prem D 1-1 Started
West Brom Oct 20, 2014 Prem D 2-2 Started
Everton Oct 5, 2014 Prem W 2-1 Unused Substitute
West Ham Sep 27, 2014 Prem W 2-1 Unused Substitute
Leicester Sep 21, 2014 Prem L 5-3 Sub-On 71 min
QPR Sep 14, 2014 Prem W 4-0 Sub-On 81 min
Burnley Aug 30, 2014 Prem D 0-0 Sub-On 86 min
MK Dons Aug 26, 2014 CC L 4-0 Sub-On 19 min
Sunderland Aug 24, 2014 Prem D 1-1 Sub-On 62 min
Swansea Aug 16, 2014 Prem L 1-2 Sub-On 23 min
These are all his appearances for us last season. You can add all the minutes you want but they do tell a story of how he was used.
Arsenal May 17, 2015 Prem D 1-1 Unused Substitute
C Palace May 9, 2015 Prem W 1-2 Unused Substitute
West Brom May 2, 2015 Prem L 0-1 Unused Substitute
Everton Apr 26, 2015 Prem L 3-0 Unused Substitute
Chelsea Apr 18, 2015 Prem L 1-0 Sub-On 69 min
Man City Apr 12, 2015 Prem W 4-2 Unused Substitute
Aston Villa Apr 4, 2015 Prem W 3-1 Unused Substitute
Liverpool Mar 22, 2015 Prem W 1-2 Unused Substitute
Tottenham Mar 15, 2015 Prem W 3-0 Unused Substitute
Arsenal Mar 9, 2015 FAC L 1-2 Sub-On 72 min
Newcastle Mar 4, 2015 Prem W 0-1 Substitute
Sunderland Feb 28, 2015 Prem W 2-0 Substitute
Swansea Feb 21, 2015 Prem L 2-1 Unused Substitute
Preston Feb 16, 2015 FAC W 1-3 Unused Substitute
Burnley Feb 11, 2015 Prem W 3-1 Started
West Ham Feb 8, 2015 Prem D 1-1 Started
Leicester Jan 31, 2015 Prem W 3-1 Started
Cambridge Jan 23, 2015 FAC D 0-0 Started
QPR Jan 17, 2015 Prem W 0-2 Unused Substitute
Yeovil Jan 4, 2015 FAC W 0-2 Unused Substitute
Stoke Jan 1, 2015 Prem D 1-1 Substitute
Aston Villa Dec 20, 2014 Prem D 1-1 Unused Substitute
Liverpool Dec 14, 2014 Prem W 3-0 Unused Substitute
Southampton Dec 8, 2014 Prem W 1-2 Unused Substitute
Stoke Dec 2, 2014 Prem W 2-1 Sub-On 90 min
Hull Nov 29, 2014 Prem W 3-0 Unused Substitute
Arsenal Nov 22, 2014 Prem W 1-2 Unused Substitute
C Palace Nov 8, 2014 Prem W 1-0 Sub-Off 62 min
Man City Nov 2, 2014 Prem L 1-0 Sub-Off 42 min
Chelsea Oct 26, 2014 Prem D 1-1 Started
West Brom Oct 20, 2014 Prem D 2-2 Started
Everton Oct 5, 2014 Prem W 2-1 Unused Substitute
West Ham Sep 27, 2014 Prem W 2-1 Unused Substitute
Leicester Sep 21, 2014 Prem L 5-3 Sub-On 71 min
QPR Sep 14, 2014 Prem W 4-0 Sub-On 81 min
Burnley Aug 30, 2014 Prem D 0-0 Sub-On 86 min
MK Dons Aug 26, 2014 CC L 4-0 Sub-On 19 min
Sunderland Aug 24, 2014 Prem D 1-1 Sub-On 62 min
Swansea Aug 16, 2014 Prem L 1-2 Sub-On 23 min
These are all his appearances for us last season. You can add all the minutes you want but they do tell a story of how he was used.
1. Agreed. No one is even arguing that it is a great achievement on Rashford's part
2. Disagree. It was 9 starts only. Which basically skews the stats. 49mins/appearance is also indicative that the player plays generally as a substitute. Just checked whoscored. its 1.2 successful dribbles in 2.9 attempts. That is 41.3%. Martial has 2.8 successful in 6.3 attempts That is 44%. (Stats per game in EPL only).
This is where stats become to bite you back- Adnan had 2.8 unsuccessful touches and been dispossessed 1.9 times. Martial- 2.3 unsuccessful touches and been dispossessed 3.2 times (Stats /90mins)
3. Stats like proved above tell part of the story. We are talking of key passes now right. Januzaj had 1.7 key passes/game, Martial 1.3(both /90minutes), Lingard 0.8, Mata 1.6. And hence proved why Stats are possibly the worst thing you can use to compare players.
Now, not saying Januzaj has been better last season than Martial this season, but I can actually prove this is the case using the method you are using to prove otherwise
4. No, if a layer has established himself, and then is losing his place will be more desperate than an 18 year old who is yet to burst.
Are you aggregating the stats to include his 2013-2014? I'm looking solely at Januzaj's 2014-2015 season (i.e., the reason why he has been dropped this season). His performances were obviously much better in 2013-2014. If you look at the 2014-15 numbers only, it tells a far different story. Imagine aggregating RVP's different seasons' worth of stats and concluding he's still a great player. Just doesn't make sense.
whoscored.com is not working on my computer but here is the source for the dribble figure for 2014-15 season.
http://www.espnfc.com/club/manchest...nuzaj-loan-from-manchester-united-to-Dortmund
"Januzaj also lost the ball when dribbling far more often than Di Maria or Mata, completing 27.8 percent of his dribbles whilst Di Maria's success rate was 29.1 percent and Mata's was 43.1 percent."
And substitute or not, 49 minutes per game and 9 starts is plenty of time to take your chance. You only need 1 minute to score a goal.
Something happened to Januzaj last season, something not very good. Either his success under Moyes got to his head, or Januzaj just doesn't have it, or both LVG and Dortmund are out of their minds and are sabotaging Januzaj. I can't conclusively state which one it is, but I can say that Januzaj started playing poorly last season, and still has not recovered.
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