Aaron Wan-Bissaka | The Ornacle speaks: It is done.

[roonster09]

But it's not very relevant, because CBs generally sell for more money than fullbacks … since CB is a more key position.

CB is not more key position than FB, they are equally important and if anything FB are so much more important in modern game.

This FB is a CB who can't head or failed winger is thing of past (and only in some cases). They are key players in modern game.

 

[balaks]

CB is not more key position than FB, they are equally important and if anything FB are so much more important in modern game.

This FB is a CB who can't head or failed winger is thing of past (and only in some cases). They are key players in modern game.

That may be increasingly true however it is also true that central defenders tend to go for more than FB's - this is because the good ones organise the defence around them as well as do the defending and they are incredibly important - FB's don't do that but are obviously more important in attack.

 

[Adnan]

CB is not more key position than FB, they are equally important and if anything FB are so much more important in modern game.

This FB is a CB who can't head or failed winger is thing of past (and only in some cases). They are key players in modern game.

This is correct, the attacking fullback is a necessity in the modern game and I even shared a article on the how they're coached differently to yesteryears.

 

[devilish]

CB is not more key position than FB, they are equally important and if anything FB are so much more important in modern game.

This FB is a CB who can't head or failed winger is thing of past (and only in some cases). They are key players in modern game.

That's funny considering that the likes of Maldini and Irwin would probably shit on all modern FBs. Oh well.

 

[roonster09]

That may be increasingly true however it is also true that central defenders tend to go for more than FB's - this is because the good ones organise the defence around them as well as do the defending and they are incredibly important - FB's don't do that but are obviously more important in attack.

Every position is incredibly important. CBs organize defense, FBs provides width and does the job of 2 roles.

That is anyways not the point, there are players (FBs) who are signed for good money after not much experience at top level or 1 great season. It's not something new, it's just that money in the game is even bigger now.

 

[Adnan]

That's funny considering that the likes of Maldini and Irwin would probably shit on all modern FBs. Oh well.

In your mind..

 

[roonster09]

That's funny considering that the likes of Maldini and Irwin would probably shit on all modern FBs. Oh well.

I didn't say that's the case, I said that was the mentality which is bs mentality.

 

[roonster09]

This is correct, the attacking fullback is a necessity in the modern game and I even shared a article on the how they're coached differently to yesteryears.

Yeah, they are very important and gives so much balance to the team. Good attacking FB means teams can overload the central position to gain numerical advantage without losing the width and attacking threat from wings.

 

[balaks]

Every position is incredibly important. CBs organize defense, FBs provides width and does the job of 2 roles.

That is anyways not the point, there are players (FBs) who are signed for good money after not much experience at top level or 1 great season. It's not something new, it's just that money in the game is even bigger now.

Yeah I'd agree with that. Should be an interesting summer.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

CB is not more key position than FB, they are equally important and if anything FB are so much more important in modern game.

This FB is a CB who can't head or failed winger is thing of past (and only in some cases). They are key players in modern game.

I wouldn't say fullbacks are more important as there are plenty of teams where you'd argue that their CB is a more vital cog than either fullabck. But they're certainly important in their own right. The major shift from the past is that wingers prefer to come inside and operate as attacking midfielders or inside forwards, meaning that your fullbacks, if they're impotent themsleves, leave your attack riddled with a lack of width/wide threat. At the same time theres no set formula for success, and all kinds of fullbacks can be part of a winning team.

 

[JPRouve]

Price of players is mainly linked to scarcity at a given level, it's not about importance. The reality is that top fullbacks don't move much, they are rare enought that they don't hit the market, the ones that do hit are rarely elite, the same phenomenon happens with CMs and goalkeepers.

 

[roonster09]

I wouldn't say fullbacks are more important as there are plenty of teams where you'd argue that their CB is a more vital cog than either fullabck. But they're certainly important in their own right. The major shift from the past is that wingers prefer to come inside and operate as attacking midfielders or inside forwards, meaning that your fullbacks, if they're impotent themsleves, leave your attack riddled with a lack of width/wide threat.

Yeah, I said it in other post, every position is equally important. FBs have become very important is adding so much to the attack, CBs adds more by playing passes from deep so that midfield don't have to drop deep. FBs helps in attack so that wingers can drift to central positions.

 

[devilish]

In your mind..

I think you were too young to remember the time when WC FB were able to equally defend and attack

 

[poleglass red]

Still he neutralized most of opposition efforts down the right, especially when you consider they were a man down for a third of the game. His passing was generally at his usual level as he isn't exactly an attacking, ball playing right back and he's also pretty raw that's clear.

If it wasn't for the own goal I doubt many would say he had a bad game.

I'd tend to agree with you here. I thought for the most part he looked good defensively. The only way he'd work for us is if we played him on the same flank as an out and out attacking right winger. a bit old school maybe, where he'd provide the cover and maybe add some attacking support. We don't have that type of player for the right hand side yet, so this signing would need to be made with upgrading at right wing in mind, something we've been calling for, for a long time. Put this lad in with the Mata's, Lingards etc and we'll still be lacking attacking width down that flank.

 

[Adnan]

I think you were too young to remember the time when WC FB were able to equally defend and attack

I'm old enough to remember irwin and Maldini. Maldini played in a team that was arguably amongst the best in the world. And Irwin played at a time when Serie A and the Spanish league were far superior. I'm sure you still remember when Romario and Stoichkov destroyed the likes of Steve Bruce and Pallister in the Camp Nou and made them look ordinary with Irwin struggling along with them? But they did fine domestically.

I personally preferred the likes of Frank de Boer and Bixente Lizarazu as being better offensively than both players you mention and played around the same era.

 

[golden_blunder]

In your mind..

He’s not wrong in the case of Maldini and Irwin would easily be one of the best around now. Mr Consistency

 

[golden_blunder]

I'm old enough to remember irwin and Maldini. Maldini played in a team that was arguably amongst the best in the world. And Irwin played at a time when Serie A and the Spanish league were far superior. I'm sure you still remember when Romario and Stoichkov destroyed the likes of Steve Bruce and Pallister in the Camp Nou and made them look ordinary with Irwin struggling along with them? But they did fine domestically.

I personally preferred the likes of Frank de Boer and Bixente Lizarazu as being better offensively than both players you mention and played around the same era.

Then you will also remember that we had to drop half our team for that match due to the stupid foreigner rule

 

[Jeffthered]

I'd tend to agree with you here. I thought for the most part he looked good defensively. The only way he'd work for us is if we played him on the same flank as an out and out attacking right winger. a bit old school maybe, where he'd provide the cover and maybe add some attacking support. We don't have that type of player for the right hand side yet, so this signing would need to be made with upgrading at right wing in mind, something we've been calling for, for a long time. Put this lad in with the Mata's, Lingards etc and we'll still be lacking attacking width down that flank.

I watched most of the game, and specifically watched him... He's strong, quick and seems a natural defender.. On the ball not outstanding, and he gifted a chance that the French should have capitalised upon.

One on one, doesn't seem many would get by him... And he will improve. BUT... he will need a lot of leadership and guidance.. And who is going to provide that?

He will make us a little more solid down the right, but I must admit, the thought of him on one flank and Shaw on another does not fill me with much excitement. Shaw is also a confidence player (who also needs leadership, guidance etc..)

Compare these players to the likes of Robertson, Rose, Alexander-Arnold, Mendy, Kyle walker... Just think we need full backs with more enterprise.

I actually like the Palace left back Van Aanholt.

 

[devilish]

I'm old enough to remember irwin and Maldini. Maldini played in a team that was arguably amongst the best in the world. And Irwin played at a time when Serie A and the Spanish league were far superior. I'm sure you still remember when Romario and Stoichkov destroyed the likes of Steve Bruce and Pallister in the Camp Nou and made them look ordinary with Irwin struggling along with them? But they did fine domestically.

I personally preferred the likes of Frank de Boer and Bixente Lizarazu as being better offensively than both players you mention and played around the same era.

Maldini was by far the best fullback the world has seen in the past 30 years. The closest to him was Zanetti but he wasn't as good as him. Regarding that game in the Camp Nou, well, that what happens when you put slow CBs against rapid strikers. Such comment has nothing to do with Maguire btw whose speed seem to be at par of Bruce's

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I'm old enough to remember irwin and Maldini. Maldini played in a team that was arguably amongst the best in the world. And Irwin played at a time when Serie A and the Spanish league were far superior. I'm sure you still remember when Romario and Stoichkov destroyed the likes of Steve Bruce and Pallister in the Camp Nou and made them look ordinary with Irwin struggling along with them? But they did fine domestically.

I personally preferred the likes of Frank de Boer and Bixente Lizarazu as being better offensively than both players you mention and played around the same era.

I’m approaching 40, and remember Maldini being one of the best players in the world, and universally considered one of the best defenders of all time!

I also remember Irwin winning the Treble with Man Utd alongside many other trophies. Both were brilliant players - and certaintly in my opinion better players than de Boer and especially Lizarazu.

Maldini played a good proportion of his career as a CB later in his career.

Interestingly, both Maldini and Irwin are right footed, but played on the left - and quite frankly you would never have noticed it with either player.

I remember that Barcelona game - and Utd were utterly screwed by the 3+2 foreigner rule. We dropped Schmeichal for Gary Walsh FFS, I wouldn’t read too much into that match. Utd and English football were still reeling from the impact of the European ban at that time.

 

[Adnan]

Then you will also remember that we had to drop half our team for that match due to the stupid foreigner rule

I do remember Schmeichel and Cantona missing the game with the following line up..

Walsh

Parker
Irwin
Bruce
Pallister

Ince
Keane
Butt
Giggs
Kanchelskis

Hughes

We were only missing Schmeichel and the suspended Cantona.

 

[Bestietom]

A top player who wants to come here. A few million in the difference. Get it done.

 

[Adnan]

I’m approaching 40, and remember Maldini being one of the best players in the world, and universally considered one of the best defenders of all time!

I also remember Irwin winning the Treble with Man Utd alongside many other trophies. Both were brilliant players - and certaintly in my opinion better players than de Boer and especially Lizarazu.

Maldini played a good proportion of his career as a CB later in his career.

Interestingly, both Maldini and Irwin are right footed, but played on the left - and quite frankly you would never have noticed it with either player.

I remember that Barcelona game - and Utd were utterly screwed by the 3+2 foreigner rule. We dropped Schmeichal for Gary Walsh FFS, I wouldn’t read too much into that match. Utd and English football were still reeling from the impact of the European ban at that time.

Frank de Boer and Lizarazu are regarded by many neutrals as being better than Denis Irwin. A quick google search will tell you that with the lists they made with irwin not in sight. Maldini was a legendary defender of his time no question, but in attack I preferred the speedy world cup winner lizarazu.

 

[Kearnkoff69]

Yeah we can agree to disagree on the first notion, mate, no issues. You are definitely wrong about Pupi though, you can search for highlights in the 90's it will be well worth it I promise

I'm not against signing AWB, just feel we would definitely need to sign a RW as well if we are to ease him in and develop his game. Also in this way we wouldn't be dependent on him creating in attack, whilst solidifying our back line.

Despite tonight showing (just one off game) we could definitely use him and will improve our backline.

Just to tie a bow on this conversation since I had to duck out yesterday -

(1) Thank you for the Zanetti video link. You sent me down a rabbit hole of class Inter videos, and that made me incredibly happy. I sometimes forget how much fun they were, and just how good he was in his prime. His was the first non-United player jersey I ever owned - I couldn't tell you what it was that drew my fascination, but he definitely had "it."

(2) Agree to disagree on the first point. Thanks for your candid back-and-forth with me. It has been a while since I felt I could have a spirited debate on here without overwhelming toxicity of this place creeping in and ruining it. It'll be interesting to see what we do to address our fullback need - and it will be exciting to get someone in and finally start shoring up our defense because of skill rather than conservative scheme.

 

[Adnan]

Maldini was by far the best fullback the world has seen in the past 30 years. The closest to him was Zanetti but he wasn't as good as him. Regarding that game in the Camp Nou, well, that what happens when you put slow CBs against rapid strikers. Such comment has nothing to do with Maguire btw whose speed seem to be at par of Bruce's

I agree with your post mostly, but Maldini as great as he was, was not as good in attack as many others. I remember Kanchelskis gave him a hard time by just running direct at him with pure pace. Think he'd struggle in the modern with the game getting quicker.

 

[GlastonSpur]

CB is not more key position than FB, they are equally important and if anything FB are so much more important in modern game.

This FB is a CB who can't head or failed winger is thing of past (and only in some cases). They are key players in modern game.

This is simply not the case ... why else do CBs generally cost more?

 

[Decomposing In Paris]

This is simply not the case ... why else do CBs generally cost more?

3 of the 6 most expensive defenders ever have been fullbacks.

 

[roonster09]

This is simply not the case ... why else do CBs generally cost more?

Who?

VVD - 75 million, Lucas Hernandez who played as FB was sold for 71 million
Laporte was sold for 51 million, Medny was sold for 52 million
Stones and Walker for around same price which source you believe (from 44 million to 53 Million) if anything BBC reported Walker cost more than Stones.

All these are latest big fee for defenders.

 

[Patrick08]

CB is not more key position than FB, they are equally important and if anything FB are so much more important in modern game.

This FB is a CB who can't head or failed winger is thing of past (and only in some cases). They are key players in modern game.

We could do without rafael, but not without vidic. Having a top quality centre back always is a higher priority than a top full back.

 

[Decomposing In Paris]

Who?

VVD - 75 million, Lucas Hernandez who played as FB was sold for 71 million
Laporte was sold for 51 million, Medny was sold for 52 million
Stones and Walker for around same price which source you believe (from 44 million to 53 Million) if anything BBC reported Walker cost more than Stones.

All these are latest big fee for defenders.

Moving on from the fact that @GlastonSpur is clearly wrong, and that Spurs probably have a pretty good training complex, but who cares?... it's really telling when you look at the list of the top defensive transfers that we aren't anywhere near it, but City have 4 of the top7, and Liverpool the most expensive.

 

[roonster09]

We could do without rafael, but not without vidic. Having a top quality centre back always is a higher priority than a top full back.

Somehow City with same CBs and different FBs looked completely different team.

 

[Lennon7]

This is simply not the case ... why else do CBs generally cost more?

Erm... they don't? It's very close unless you get that huge talent.

 

[Decomposing In Paris]

We could do without rafael, but not without vidic. Having a top quality centre back always is a higher priority than a top full back.

But Vidic was truly top class... Rafael was lovable, but never at Vidic's level.

 

[roonster09]

Moving on from the fact that @GlastonSpur is clearly wrong, and that Spurs probably have a pretty good training complex, but who cares?... it's really telling when you look at the list of the top defensive transfers that we aren't anywhere near it, but City have 4 of the top7, and Liverpool the most expensive.

Yeah that's depressing. We really need top class RB and CB.

 

[Patrick08]

Somehow City with same CBs and different FBs looked completely different team.

Guardiola plays football in oppositions half with 70% plus ball possession and maximum control. He likes to push them so high and press so high and squeeze the opposition that their only route to get out came from long balls into space behind full backs, and thus his team needed recovery pace from full backs to maintain that control which aging players were often found wanting. They spend most of their time on the ball and need full backs to contribute in attack and provide width and final balls. And also beat their men. That energy was lacking in previous ones. Their centrebacks never come under pressure ,when they did they leaked goals. But against top creative team's who could build and create he mostly relied on kompany as the go to guy than stones or otamendi who on top form is a superior cb. Still they keep leaking goals against top oppositions.

 

[andersj]

He did not look that comfortable in defence yesterday either. I guess playing in Crystal Palace defence under Hodgson is easier than in the U21 team. That is a worry, because we are not very well organized ourself.

I agree that AWB is great in 1v1s, but there is a lot more to defending than that. Sure, a wellplaced sliding tackle looks good on television or from the stadium. It also improve your stats. Same goes with being aggressive and making interceptions.

But I’m not sure it makes you a great defender. The story about how Ferguson realized that he misinterpreted Stams statistics is quite telling. The same was the case for Rio Ferdinand. He rarely made tackles. He did not have to. That makes you a good defender.

In my opinion, looking at tackling and interception stat might be deceiving. Specially for players at lower clubs. Mainly because I’m not sure how much value it actually represent. A player like Carrick never had the same tackling-stats as Schneiderlin, but he were usually in a position that ensured he did not have to tackle.

It is cool that AWB can invite players to take him on, and then always come out on top. It is a good quality too. But that alone does not make him a great defender.

Regarding statistics, it is interesting to note that the best teams seem to target Crystal Palace right side (and attack down the left). At first, I thought it was a coincident, but then I noticed it was a pattern (I only looked at the last half of the season and top 6):

- Arsenal at home focused 50 % of their attacks down the left (20 % through the middle, 30 % down the right)
- Spurs at home focused 45 % of their attacks down the left (29 % through the middle, 26 % on the left)
- Man City away focused 50 % of their attacks down the left (28 % through the middle, 22 % on the left)
- Chelsea (without Haz) away focused 37 % of their attacks down the left (33 % through the middle and 30 % on the left)

(Liverpool and Man Utd were more or less symmetrical.)

The pattern looked to repeat it self regardless of if Zaha played left or right, or if CP had McArthur, Townsend or Zaha infront of him. Is not that a bit surprising? It is almost as they target the right side of Palace defence.

(It could explain why AWB makes alot of tackles and interception. But it do not explain why! Given that AWB is a great defender, would we not expect teams to target PVA on the left?!)

 

[GlastonSpur]

3 of the 6 most expensive defenders ever have been fullbacks.

Six players is a tiny sample size, not statistically worth bothering with. There have been hundreds of CBs and fullbacks signed across Europe's top leagues in the last few years.

 

[devilish]

I agree with your post mostly, but Maldini as great as he was, was not as good in attack as many others. I remember Kanchelskis gave him a hard time by just running direct at him with pure pace. Think he'd struggle in the modern with the game getting quicker.

That's the problem with exceptional defenders. Some skills are remembered more then others. People see Zanetti's elegant movement with the ball and think he wasn't a great defender. However he was. Same with Maldini when going forward. The guy was such a great defender that he could play as a CB and still be world class. That was a rare thing at a time when the FB role was considered as inferior to that of a CB. Therefore he's remembered more for his defensive skills rather then his attacking skills Having said that Maldini could attack. I saw him take the ball and dribble with it to the other end.

Pace is get away card that can paper many many cracks. A defender can have great defensive skills, positioning and experience but he can do very little when the guy in front of him move the ball quickly and outrun him. An 17 year old Anelka for example used to be an absolute nightmare on quick counters against any club. Even Jaap Stam who was a giant of a defender struggled against that. Same with Torres vs Vidic. Its the reason why I decided to close an eye to James technical deficiency. If he's truly the fastest player Ryan Giggs has ever encountered then the guy will be a thorn irrespective his technical deficiency or lack of EPL experience.

 

[United_We_Stand]

 

[Deleted 112447]

Apparently we've agreed to pay 55mil. I'm very happy with this even if i do have question marks over his attacking contribution, out defense should improve to no end with him.