Aaron Wan-Bissaka | The Ornacle speaks: It is done.

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Rodgers has also been a successful premier league managers for years, and took Liverpool to 2nd place.

Ole has gotten Cardiff relegated and had them fighting relegation in the championship in 10 months.
Ole is completely unproven at this level, and whilst I would have loved for him to become a united manager after proving himself at a championship and a premier league top half side before taking on the role. He needed to reistablish his managerial reputation away from united not have to learn on the go at the biggest club in the world.

Remind me who Pep managed before Barcelona, Zidane before Madrid? Looks like Lampard could be the next Chelsea manager based on how many months at Derby?

We’ve already had Jose and LVG - a couple of the most successful managers in the game - how did they work out? There is no manager who can guarantee that they will be a success. Pep is the most successful manager around, but he’s gone to great teams, with lots of money and with squads that were already packed with great players.

The reality is that it’s a massive slice of luck as to whether each and every appointment works out. I would say the odds are easily less than 50/50.

 

[United Pro]

Why would his price drop if we wait 2-3 weeks more, though?

My comment is in response to those complaining why the deal isn't agreed yet and why Woodward hasn't matched what Palace want. The 2-3 weeks is in reference to negotiations taking place to resolve upon a fee that is closer to our valuation of the player as opposed to the £70m that was reported previously. So, I wasn't saying that we simply wait for 2-3 weeks and as a result Palace's asking price will decrease.

 

[Mick1]

Remind me who Pep managed before Barcelona, Zidane before Madrid? Looks like Lampard could be the next Chelsea manager based on how many months at Derby?

We’ve already had Jose and LVG - a couple of the most successful managers in the game - how did they work out? There is no manager who can guarantee that they will be a success. Pep is the most successful manager around, but he’s gone to great teams, with lots of money and with squads that were already packed with great players.

The reality is that it’s a massive slice of luck as to whether each and every appointment works out. I would say the odds are easily less than 50/50.

I hope I'm wrong but this might be the biggest mistake post Ferguson so far. Hope to be wrong

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I hope I'm wrong but this might be the biggest mistake post Ferguson so far. Hope to be wrong

It’s not going to be worse than Moyes!

Anyway - back to the thread. Let’s not all get our knickers in a twist over ongoing negotiations, where any actual detail is speculative!

Let’s not be selective about what reports to believe in. As far as I can see there are very few facts around this potential transfer. Negotiations do take time. You can play an entire season on Football Manager in a day - let’s just be patient. There will be news when there is news.

Would be interesting to see if the online Spurs fan base is just as impatient - they haven’t bought a player for 18 months!

 

[Enigma_87]

Remind me who Pep managed before Barcelona, Zidane before Madrid? Looks like Lampard could be the next Chelsea manager based on how many months at Derby?

Remind me of what have Keane, Gary Neville, Henry, Maradona, Stoichkov, Matthaus and hundreds of other past footballers have done in management? Or what Di Matteo have done since sacked by Chelsea.

2 successful stories out of 100 doesn't mean Ole will be one.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Remind me of what have Keane, Gary Neville, Henry, Maradona, Stoichkov, Matthaus and hundreds of other past footballers have done in management? Or what Di Matteo have done since sacked by Chelsea.

2 successful stories out of 100 doesn't mean Ole will be one.

Brilliant - if you quoted my whole post, you would see that I said the chance of success for any managerial post was less than 50/50.

I’ve not said OGS will be a success. But relying on past experience (LVG, or Jose) didn’t bring success. We must be due a break?

Ultimately for any club it’s all about rolling through enough managers before you find one that works. OGS might be the one - the problem is that CVs and experience don’t really matter (hence me bringing up Pep, and Xidane) and so we don’t know he’s going to work until we give the guy a chance.

 

[Infestissumam]

too bad we couldn't wrap this up before the start of the U21 Euros.

 

[Red Devil Rising]

Remind me of what have Keane, Gary Neville, Henry, Maradona, Stoichkov, Matthaus and hundreds of other past footballers have done in management? Or what Di Matteo have done since sacked by Chelsea.

2 successful stories out of 100 doesn't mean Ole will be one.

No-one ever knows. Mourinho was supposed to be the banker, the one that has never gone wrong.

 

[red thru&thru]

No one is worrying themselves over it, the only ones who are getting frantic over this are the fans who think we should pay whatever for a player. They are also the ones who tend to openly criticize the club for it's profligate transfers up until this point. Rather, some understand it's Woody's job to negotiate the best deal, and, if that adds another week or two week to negotiations, so be it.

And some believe Ed made a rod for his own back. He was showing off that we can do what others can't. So now go and do that. If he can't, he should pipe down and give a brief out that we won't be exorbitant fees to clubs or agents.

 

[Tel074]

So there is the difference between United and City since Ed came in. City have agreed to a release clause for a player without the world knowing and United mess around with stupid unrealistic bids for players

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

And some believe Ed made a rod for his own back. He was showing off that we can do what others can't. So now go and do that. If he can't, he should pipe down and give a brief out that we won't be exorbitant fees to clubs or agents.

He also needs to brief the manager who was openly telling journalists that he wanted all the transfer business concluded by 1st July. We are a mess.

 

[Enigma_87]

Brilliant - if you quoted my whole post, you would see that I said the chance of success for any managerial post was less than 50/50.

I’ve not said OGS will be a success. But relying on past experience (LVG, or Jose) didn’t bring success. We must be due a break?

Ultimately for any club it’s all about rolling through enough managers before you find one that works. OGS might be the one - the problem is that CVs and experience don’t really matter (hence me bringing up Pep, and Xidane) and so we don’t know he’s going to work until we give the guy a chance.

If by 50/50 you mean yes or no - ok. But the chances of him being a success are much smaller than 50%.

Having history of buying lottery tickets doesn't change the average of the next one.

One thing I will never agree is that CV and experience doesn't matter - they do, but I guess we will learn it the hard way like always.

We should gave Bebe a three years 120k contract as well right? I mean he didn't really get a proper chance?

No-one ever knows. Mourinho was supposed to be the banker, the one that has never gone wrong.

and has been our best appointment so far (doesn't say much I know). The one with least experience at top level (Moyes) was the worst.

 

[Mick1]

Brilliant - if you quoted my whole post, you would see that I said the chance of success for any managerial post was less than 50/50.

I’ve not said OGS will be a success. But relying on past experience (LVG, or Jose) didn’t bring success. We must be due a break?

Ultimately for any club it’s all about rolling through enough managers before you find one that works. OGS might be the one - the problem is that CVs and experience don’t really matter (hence me bringing up Pep, and Xidane) and so we don’t know he’s going to work until we give the guy a chance.

2 in 100 is less than 50/50, about 1/50 to be exact

 

[roonster09]

2 in 100 is less than 50/50, about 1/50 to be exact

There are more than 2 though, he just mentioned 2 names.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

If by 50/50 you mean yes or no - ok. But the chances of him being a success are much smaller than 50%.

Having history of buying lottery tickets doesn't change the average of the next one.

One thing I will never agree is that CV and experience doesn't matter - they do, but I guess we will learn it the hard way like always.

We should gave Bebe a three years 120k contract as well right? I mean he didn't really get a proper chance?


and has been our best appointment so far (doesn't say much I know). The one with least experience at top level (Moyes) was the worst.

If a CV matters so much - why would the managerial failure rate at every club, not just Utd be so high? What’s the average time for a managerial appointment, 13-14 months?

Clearly I was being slightly facetious, in saying a CV doesn’t matter, but past experience and success does not guarantee success (as we have seen at Utd) - so criticising OGS’ pedigree seems futile.

 

[golden_blunder]

I don’t care about his past, it’s what he does now this season that counts. If we get a good window he has a chance. If we don’t get a good window he will be gone by Christmas imho

 

[Enigma_87]

If a CV matters so much - why would the managerial failure rate at every club, not just Utd be so high? What’s the average time for a managerial appointment, 13-14 months?

Clearly I was being slightly facetious, in saying a CV doesn’t matter, but past experience and success does not guarantee success (as we have seen at Utd) - so criticising OGS’ pedigree seems futile.

When one manager fails you replace him with another one from similar pedigree. The chances of 1 out of 3 being a success is much more viable than putting 3 rookies with no pedigree, don't you agree?

So far at the United which manager was the worst appointment and how does his CV rate compared to the other three?

Say what you like but we were better under Jose and LvG compared to Moyes and Ole (so far).

There's another thing, which many ignore and say that manager is no pull for the players. Do you think Pogba, Ibra or that caliber of players would've come to United being managed by Ole?

What's Ole's pull this Summer when it comes to presenting our project to the likes of De Ligt, Sancho and other top tier targets?

Yes for AWB it doesn't mean feck all as we aren't really facing a competition for his signature, but for others?

 

[roonster09]

When one manager fails you replace him with another one from similar pedigree. The chances of 1 out of 3 being a success is much more viable than putting 3 rookies with no pedigree, don't you agree?

So far at the United which manager was the worst appointment and how does his CV rate compared to the other three?

There's another thing, which many ignore and say that manager is no pull for the players. Do you think Pogba, Ibra or that caliber of players would've come to United being managed by Ole?

What's Ole's pull this Summer when it comes to presenting our project to the likes of De Ligt, Sancho and other top tier targets?

Hazard rejected SAF to sign for managerless Chelsea who were about to appoint Di Matteo.

 

[Enigma_87]

Hazard rejected SAF to sign for managerless Chelsea who were about to appoint Di Matteo.

And we conveniently forget that they were the active CL winners?

Does one example make it a rule? You are telling me players don't care which manager is at the club they are signing for?

Why are DDG, Pogba, Lukaku, etc looking to go elsewhere if our project is so enticing?

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

When one manager fails you replace him with another one from similar pedigree. The chances of 1 out of 3 being a success is much more viable than putting 3 rookies with no pedigree, don't you agree?

So far at the United which manager was the worst appointment and how does his CV rate compared to the other three?

Say what you like but we were better under Jose and LvG compared to Moyes and Ole (so far).

There's another thing, which many ignore and say that manager is no pull for the players. Do you think Pogba, Ibra or that caliber of players would've come to United being managed by Ole?

What's Ole's pull this Summer when it comes to presenting our project to the likes of De Ligt, Sancho and other top tier targets?

Yes for AWB it doesn't mean feck all as we aren't really facing a competition for his signature, but for others?

Einstein said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. So let’s keep signing the same type of managers...

Players know that most of the time, when they sign for a club that they will stay longer than the manager. Money, club history, Champions League, prestige, money, twitter followers, and more money have a greater pull than the current manager of a football club - exception being Pep.

I doubt I could (or you could) name all the managers of Chelsea and Madrid over the past 10 years, and those clubs continue to sign good players - im sure they’ve signed players when they didn’t even have a manger!

It’s getting boring now, I’ve not said OGS will be a success - but let’s give the guy a chance.

 

[roonster09]

And we conveniently forget that they were the active CL winners?

Does one example make it a rule? You are telling me players don't care which manager is at the club they are signing for?

Why are DDG, Pogba, Lukaku, etc looking to go elsewhere if our project is so enticing?

You said about manager without mentioning whether club is in CL or winning trophies, not me.

We will miss our targets thanks to Jose, big reason for missing out CL. Without CL it's hard to sign players, especially when the club had so much drama and toxic atmosphere. Obviously manager also matters but he is just small part of the puzzle.

De Gea, Pogba have spent enough time at Manutd and they see we are going nowhere (5 years under experienced managers), they are at their peak so obviously want to move on. Lukaku is leaving as he isn't first choice player.

When we were winning league trophies for fun, Ronaldinho rejected Manutd move to sign for novice Rijkaard who was manager of struggling Barca.
ManUtd wanted Gareth Bale when he was at Southampton and he moved to Spurs.

Lucas rejected SAF's Manutd to sign for PSG.
Shearer rejected Manutd twice or thrice to sign for inferior team and manager.
Carlos Tevez when he was playing for ManUtd, agreed to join Mark Huges' City,
Gazza rejected Ferguson
Robben rejected SAF to sign for Ranieri


Btw De Gea also wanted to leave under Van Gaal and was seconds away from leaving the club. Pogba apparently wanted out last season, so both players wanted out even when playing for experienced managers.

Edit: Not sure who said our project is enticing when we are in such a mess thanks to mismanagement for years. It's hilarious to blame Ole for this.

 

[Enigma_87]

Einstein said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. So let’s keep signing the same type of managers...

I can say exactly the same about appointing Moyes type managers. Ole has been in management for 10 years now - in a tin pot league and relegating Cardiff. Moyes was 10-15 years in management even at a bigger level(but not sufficient) at Everton.

One was being appointed because of being Scottish - the other one because he was a former player. See a pattern there?

Players know that most of the time, when they sign for a club that they will stay longer than the manager. Money, club history, Champions League, prestige, money, twitter followers, and more money have a greater pull than the current manager of a football club - exception being Pep.

I doubt I could (or you could) name all the managers of Chelsea and Madrid over the past 10 years, and those clubs continue to sign good players - im sure they’ve signed players when they didn’t even have a manger!

It’s getting boring now, I’ve not said OGS will be a success - but let’s give the guy a chance.

We so far off at the moment compared to Madrid, Barca and even Chelsea by the time they signed Hazard it's not even funny.

 

[Enigma_87]

You said about manager without mentioning whether club is in CL or winning trophies, not me.

We will miss our targets thanks to Jose, big reason for missing out CL. Without CL it's hard to sign players, especially when the club had so much drama and toxic atmosphere. Obviously manager also matters but he is just small part of the puzzle.

De Gea, Pogba have spent enough time at Manutd and they see we are going nowhere (5 years under experienced managers), they are at their peak so obviously want to move on. Lukaku is leaving as he isn't first choice player.

When we were winning league trophies for fun, Ronaldinho rejected Manutd move to sign for novice Rijkaard who was manager of struggling Barca.
ManUtd wanted Gareth Bale when he was at Southampton and he moved to Spurs.

Lucas rejected SAF's Manutd to sign for PSG.
Shearer rejected Manutd twice or thrice to sign for inferior team and manager.
Carlos Tevez when he was playing for ManUtd, agreed to join Mark Huges' City,
Gazza rejected Ferguson
Robben rejected SAF to sign for Ranieri


Btw De Gea also wanted to leave under Van Gaal and was seconds away from leaving the club. Pogba apparently wanted out last season, so both players wanted out even when playing for experienced managers.

Edit: Not sure who said our project is enticing when we are in such a mess thanks to mismanagement for years. It's hilarious to blame Ole for this.

I guess this is a matter for another thread, but there are much more examples of players signing for particular managers. It's not like we didn't sign top players during Ferguson and it's not like we can sign them all.

Fair enough if you think managers don't have pull in modern football - we have to agree to disagree on that one.

My point is when Jose came we could attract top players and signed top players. This Summer we got rejected by Sancho so far and it's highly unlikely to sign a player that is actively sought for by different teams. Maybe this is down to coincidence?

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I can say exactly the same about appointing Moyes type managers. Ole has been in management for 10 years now - in a tin pot league and relegating Cardiff. Moyes was 10-15 years in management even at a bigger level(but not sufficient) at Everton.

One was being appointed because of being Scottish - the other one because he was a former player. See a pattern there?

There is no pattern. Are you seriously comparing Moyes’ career to that of OGS, someone’s nationality to the fact they they were a former player - they are completly different. But you are making my point for me - we really don’t know what ingredients we need until we give a guy a chance.

Let’s take this to the OGS thread - as it’s seriously derailed this thread (am as guilty as anyone else).

 

[macheda14]

Oh wow there's been a lot of new comments on the Wan-Bissaka thread, there must be some new developments

'Ole is shit, Moyes was scottish, this is a big mistake, Einstein said'

Oh yeah I'm on Redcafe in 2019.

 

[Enigma_87]

There is no pattern. Are you seriously comparing Moyes’ career to that of OGS, someone’s nationality to the fact they they were a former player - they are completly different. But you are making my point for me - we really don’t know what ingredients we need until we give a guy a chance.

Let’s take this to the OGS thread - as it’s seriously derailed this thread (am as guilty as anyone else).

My point was that if Moyes wasn't Scottish and Fergie's buddy he would've never been approached. Same for Ole - if he wasn't a former player he would never get a top job - for 10 years his best offer was Cardiff.

Agree on not derailing the thread we can take it there.

 

[roonster09]

I guess this is a matter for another thread, but there are much more examples of players signing for particular managers. It's not like we didn't sign top players during Ferguson and it's not like we can sign them all.

Fair enough if you think managers don't have pull in modern football - we have to agree to disagree on that one.

My point is when Jose came we could attract top players and signed top players. This Summer we got rejected by Sancho so far and it's highly unlikely to sign a player that is actively sought for by different teams. Maybe this is down to coincidence?

Sancho rejected as we are not in CL, not because we have Ole as manager. Perisic rejected Jose (with CL) , Maguire wasn't arsed to push for the transfer and signed extension when Jose wanted him. Boateng said he rejected the move. There are many examples too.

I didn't say they don't have pull, I said they are small part of puzzle and it also depends on the level of club. Right now we are at the bottom, thanks to you know who. It takes time to rebuild and won't be surprising if we are rejected by many players.

 

[shabadu84]

Sancho rejected as we are not in CL, not because we have Ole as manager. Perisic rejected Jose (with CL) , Maguire wasn't arsed to push for the transfer and signed extension when Jose wanted him. Boateng said he rejected the move. There are many examples too.

I didn't say they don't have pull, I said they are small part of puzzle and it also depends on the level of club. Right now we are at the bottom, thanks to you know who. It takes time to rebuild and won't be surprising if we are rejected by many players.

Not sure about all that but the bold is definitely not the case. The transfer didn't happen because we didn't meet Inter's asking price so they refused to sell. Perisic signed an extension after that became clear.

 

[roonster09]

Not sure about all that but the bold is definitely not the case. The transfer didn't happen because we didn't meet Inter's asking price so they refused to sell. Perisic signed an extension after that became clear.

Player himself said he had decision to make with Manutd offer on the table and Spalletti convinced him.

 

[Enigma_87]

Sancho rejected as we are not in CL, not because we have Ole as manager. Perisic rejected Jose (with CL) , Maguire wasn't arsed to push for the transfer and signed extension when Jose wanted him. Boateng said he rejected the move. There are many examples too.

I didn't say they don't have pull, I said they are small part of puzzle and it also depends on the level of club. Right now we are at the bottom, thanks to you know who. It takes time to rebuild and won't be surprising if we are rejected by many players.

We weren't in CL either when we signed Pogba and Ibra.

Woodward came and said last year that we will not buy any defender that is not Varane level, Perisic was also vetoed by him, but again we digress.

AWB looks like the only promising player that we have so far chance in signing and at the reported price it's not like we face stiff competition - much like James.

Experienced managers managed top clubs over the years and top players know them, worked with them and we'd have better chance as they have already relationship with them.

In essence you agree with me that if we had a better manager that would make a difference in attracting higher tier of players this year no?

 

[Bestietom]

Woodward is just not able to conduct transfers and get them over the line. We will be lucky to get 2 more players in before deadline. He needs to step down now.

 

[roonster09]

We weren't in CL either when we signed Pogba and Ibra.

Woodward came and said last year that we will not buy any defender that is not Varane level, Perisic was also vetoed by him, but again we digress.

AWB looks like the only promising player that we have so far chance in signing and at the reported price it's not like we face stiff competition - much like James.

Experienced managers managed top clubs over the years and top players know them, worked with them and we'd have better chance as they have already relationship with them.

In essence you agree with me that if we had a better manager that would make a difference in attracting higher tier of players this year no?

No, I didn't agree with you. 2016 was different, atmosphere wasn't toxic, we finished 5th just missing out 4th on GD, all other teams were close to us with decent signings. it's different now, we made blunders and far from City and Liverpool, worse than Spurs too. So obviously we are at lot lower level.

Funny you say we don't have competition for AWB because of price when same was true for Pogba too. We priced everyone out with transfer fee and wages, same for Zlatan who was highest paid player in the league.

So somehow it was club's mistake for not signing CBs last season but problem this season is Ole for not signing Sancho. At least have consistent logic. And no Perisic was not vetoed, player himself said he had offer and he rejected it.

We would have better chance for attracting higher tier players if we were in CL and atmosphere at the club was good. We have nothing this season, again thanks to the ground work by Jose which is something you are ignoring. We are having problems in negotiating contracts because of Sanchez's contract, again one more Jose's desperate signing.

You are just ignoring how much damage Jose did to this club along with Woodward and looking for easy excuse to blame Ole.

Like I said, Maguire wasn't arsed to join so he signed contract extension, Boateng said he rejected ManUtd. There was rumor that Pogba wanted out last season but that's ignored and now you are saying he is leaving because of Ole.

 

[Enigma_87]

@roonster09 we may go in circles here mate. Simple yes or no - if we had a more experienced and better manager at helm, even in this situation, would you say we have a bigger chance of getting top players?

 

[roonster09]

@roonster09 we may go in circles here mate. Simple yes or no - if we had a more experienced and better manager at helm, even in this situation, would you say we have a bigger chance of getting top players?

There is never a simple yes/no answer in this case.

For example if we had Jose joining tomorrow, I don't see our fortunes changing one bit in transfer window.

 

[Rista]

Einstein said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. So let’s keep signing the same type of managers...

Are people actually serious when they post stuff like this

If you had a 55% chance of winning a coin flip, would continuing playing be insanity if you had lost the first two? "We've had two world class managers fail therefore we should appoint a rookie instead". Going by that logic, if Ole fails we should promote the tea lady. As hiring a proven or unproven manager would be insanity. That's clearly what Einstein meant.

 

[redshaw]

Not sure about all that but the bold is definitely not the case. The transfer didn't happen because we didn't meet Inter's asking price so they refused to sell. Perisic signed an extension after that became clear.

Unless Perisic is lying, he said Spalletti convinced him to stay.

I'm inclined to believe him.

 

[Enigma_87]

There is never a simple yes/no answer in this case.

For example if we had Jose joining tomorrow, I don't see our fortunes changing one bit in transfer window.

Nah, we disagree here. If we appointed Conte or Allegri IMO we have a decent chance of getting better players. For starters they've been in management at top clubs for much longer and know hundreds of top players. There's a good chance we can approach and get quality players just based on that.

 

[roonster09]

Nah, we disagree here. If we appointed Conte or Allegri IMO we have a decent chance of getting better players. For starters they've been in management at top clubs for much longer and know hundreds of top players. There's a good chance we can approach and get quality players just based on that.

That sort of narrow view is also one reason for this mess, lazy approach of just signing Manager's ex players.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Are people actually serious when they post stuff like this

If you had a 55% chance of winning a coin flip, would continuing playing be insanity if you had lost the first two? "We've had two world class managers fail therefore we should appoint a rookie instead". Going by that logic, if Ole fails we should promote the tea lady. As hiring a proven or unproven manager would be insanity. That's clearly what Einstein meant.

You completely missed the context of the conversation - well done.

What I’ve said is that the success of a manager cannot be guaranteed. So criticising OGS’ background is futile, given we have tried experienced managers and they have failed - so no issue in trying a different approach. I’m not saying he will be a success, most managerial appointments are failures at all clubs, and like all clubs we will continue to cycle through managers until we find one that works.

 

[Enigma_87]

That sort of narrow view is also one reason for this mess, lazy approach of just signing Manager's ex players.

It's not just signing ex players, but some ex players might help with experience. Still that wasn't the point.