As a long time apologist, I relent. Too many holes.
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AWB as McFred did, looked good in those types of derby games because we went backs to the wall. As we saw on the weekend of you ask AWB to push up & play with space in behind him he can get pulled all over the place as his positional sense is poor. If you want to hold a deep line & have him man mark what’s in front of him he’s shown his best moments there but honestly he provides nothing on the ball whilst we play the likes of Neymar & Mahrez, what 8-10 times a year?
Why did Ralf bring this imposter back when Dalot was doing alright and team was performing much better without him?
We're a failing side because of players like Wan Bissaka? Interesting that he played nearly every game last season then, when we finished 2nd, no?
Never in all my years playing or watching football have I seen a poor side made good by a fullback or good side made poor by a fullback.
We have two CMs who can't pass or tackle. We have a decrepit CF who if he wasn't called 'Ronaldo' would have been consigned to the cold end of the bench 3-months ago and we have a GK who thinks he's playing Subbutteo and can only move sideways.
Sort out the spine of the team and we will get improved results.
Have a look at all the best teams in the world over the last few years, and pay attention to how important a role the fullbacks play. I agree with you that he is not the only issue in the squad, but he is as big an issue as any other.
We are a failing side, because we have spent stupid sums of money on players who are simply not good enough footballers to play for a club that wants to challenge at the top. Wan-Bissaka, along with Maguire, De Gea, Fred and others, is undoubtedly one of these players.
I wonder did you get the opportunity to watch Matty Cash a little closer this evening, following your comments earlier?
Finished 2nd last season, gonna finish fifth or sixth this season. The same pattern as Jose really. We are talking about getting top four this season never mind actually challenging for the title or a trophy. AWB is one of the players that needs to be moved along or sat on the bench. He is not good enough for Manchester United, never was or never will be. Just from the City game Telles, Lindelof, AWB, Fred, Scott, Elanga should be no-where a Manchester United first 11. AWB is no-where near the level of Trent, Walker or Reece James attacking wise or even defensively as AWB's positioning is horrific. He looks like a player in Divison three when playing in the champions league. How are you actually defending him. He is absolutely hopeless. He can't even get a look in for England.
Look at what Trent, Robertson, Walker, Cancelo, James, Chillwell do for the top teams and look at AWB and even Shaw.
They’re both pretty poor that’s why. Dalot looks better on the ball and is slightly better in progression but his delivery is just as woeful. His crosses usually end up for a throw-in on the other side. Seriously, did he even deliver one good ball into the box in his 8 consecutive starts? Shame AWB is just as bad.
I thought it was Tuanzebe that had good game against Mbappe. Where is he now again?
Wasn't Shaw praised across the World for his performances at Euro 2020?
My point is this....every man and his dog now understands that full backs are important in the modern game, relative to how their role was viewed in the 90s, for example....but they are still not AS important as CMs and CFs.
It makes me laugh that every single week we hear people moaning about the fullbacks, as if somehow we could just stick a couple of different fullbacks in this side and all of a sudden, we'd be amazing.
We don't have unlimited money like a Chelsea or a City did to make 30 signings in two or three seasons, so you have to think 'what is the most improvement we can make, with the £100m or so we will have?'
I am telling you, personally, a full back would be well down my list. A better GK would add several points per season immediately. A better CF would add 10+. Two better CMs would add 15+.
Good fullbacks make good, functioning teams better. You can't have a CF who can't move or control a football, two CMs who actively hide from the ball and can't make a forward pass and a GK who only moves sideways and somehow expect that your fullbacks are going to shine in this set-up.
In other words, put TAA and Robertson in our team, they would still look like decent players, but their flaws would be exaggerated (TAA not a brilliant defender, for example) and their strengths wouldn't shine so brightly (what's the point in having two flying fullbacks if the passing is always sideways and backwards?)
Put AWB and Shaw into Liverpool's team...yeah....AWB wouldn't do that job AS well as TAA, but he would do fine. He'd defend well, give the ball to Mo Salah, it would work out just fine. Shaw....I think would shine it a better side, as he has done for a good England side, and in a bad United side as well at times to be fair.
I think posters have to understand that we fail because we're not a functioning unit. In an ideal world, you want two top fullbacks, but you have to have the framework to support that. The spine of our team is so, so poor. It's criminal for a Manchester United team, a team that has spent over £1BN in the last decade, to have players like Fred, McTominay and a 37yo Ronaldo in central areas.
Come off it, AWB would not be 'fine' in Liverpool team, Klopp would move him on in a heartbeat. He expects fullbacks to be very good on the ball, able to pass out from the back and be a clear attacking threat with good crossing. AWB is none of those. by all account Ole overruled the recruitment team to sign him, he is and was an appalling signing for the money. Shaw remains an enigma, on his day he can look top class, but bursts of good performances seem to be rarer these days, with him too often looking off the pace and disinterested.
Time to acknowledge that we have made a mistake signing him and Maguire and cut our losses, will be happy to sell them at half of their respective purchase prices.
We should also sack the scout that picked him up after monitoring and analysing 804 right backs in the world
We should also sack the scout that picked him up after monitoring and analysing 804 right backs in the world
He's far too passive, never gets tight and relies too heavily on his slide tackle recovery, he never seems to talk or organise the defence in any way shape or form either, just chews his gum and looks uninterested. His touch is awful and he never appears to have the ball fully under control.
According to a poster the other day, several well placed journos reported that Ole and his personal scout pushed ahead with both deals, escpecally Maguire, against advice of the recruitment team. Just shows again why you need a proper DoF and recruitment process, not Ed trying to be be the next Florentino Perez and Ole just confirming how out of his depth he was.
I remember Mourinho crying out for Maguire - so I dont believe this recruitment team Angel thing.
I recall that in the first summer after Ole turned permanent, a Cardiff fan warned us here that Ole sucks at signing players and determining which player worth playing. He was so right.
Nearly all Mou's recruitment was done by his favourite agents, I think he pretty much ignored the internal team. Given his track record of signings when at OT, do we care what he thought?
Wouldn’t that back up the post you quoted? That the recruitment team had already vetoed Maguire under Mourinho but Ole pushed on with it despite their reservations?
That's not really the point I was making. Would Klopp target AWB? Absolutely not. However, if you swapped AWB and TAA tomorrow, would you see a big improvement in AWB and a dip from TAA? I believe 100%.
Its not very often in football you get to sign 23 perfect players, who fit the manager and the system...unless you're owned by Abu Dhabi, for instance.
Most clubs have to "make do" sometimes, and find what works for certain players to get the bsst out of them. We manage to get the worst out of every single player we own by signing them without thinking about how we are going to use them
If you swapped TAA and AWB then Milner would be playing full back most games for Liverpool.
You think AWB could get 11 assists in the premier league if he was at Liverpool at the start of the season?
We have a consistent five or six players starting week in/week out for United who are not good enough, not even for the bench.
You are starting to sound like people at United handing out big contracts because they showed glimmers of class for six months but the players are consistently shit.
Shaw has been consistently crap for 8 years bar one good spell for six months when he might lose his place to Telles. Now he's an absolute disaster.
We are talking about players here who can't even finish top four never mind challenging for the title.
Yes the club was ready to jeopardize its relationship with Jose because it didn't want Maguire at 60m. It makes little sense to say it was their idea to buy him a year later 20 million higher than the vetoed price. This absolutely points to Ole and Phelan. The latter especially was reported to be the mastermind behind the Buy British summer. Apparently was even holding out for the DoF role.
I have generally found Ralfs lineups pretty sensible, but I couldn't understand bringing Wan-Bissaka back in. It seems to me there wasn't a great reason. If it was to protect against City's left side then it did not work. He was his usual oafish self on the ball as well. Barely looked interested in stating his case.
I don't necessarily think Dalot would have handled it much better as he isn't wonderful defensively but I still don't think it's a development I want to see moving forward.
I don't necessarily think Dalot would have handled it much better as he isn't wonderful defensively but I still don't think it's a development I want to see moving forward.
He was quoted at more expensive after the WC in fairness, they possibly hoped his price would drop drastically. Of course he wasn’t available at 60m after the WC.
It's a shame really.
If he added 25% to his attacking ability and work rate (maybe this is linked to poor training aswell) -
Then in my eyes he would have been some player.
United just seems like a place where the player is bigger than the club. I wonder if we had an Oligarch or a literal Country owning us compared to just a bunch of rich American sportsmen then we would be run better.
The American public United aspect has killed us.
If he added 25% to his attacking ability and work rate (maybe this is linked to poor training aswell) -
Then in my eyes he would have been some player.
United just seems like a place where the player is bigger than the club. I wonder if we had an Oligarch or a literal Country owning us compared to just a bunch of rich American sportsmen then we would be run better.
The American public United aspect has killed us.
I'm not going to put a number on it because that is ridiculous but AWB would get a good number of assists at Liverpool, sure. So would Tariq Lamptey, Luke Shaw, Matty Cash, Lucas Digne, Keiran Tierney etc...
Shaw hasn't been crap for 8 years either, first of all, I think he has been our Player of the Season once or twice, probably one of the few outfield players to win it over the last decade! Shaw was also picked for England this Summer over the likes of Ben Chilwell, and was praised around the World for his performances.
Again, you're conflating two things - bad players and bad teams. Manchester United are a bad team, but not many of our players are "bad". In fact, I'd say very few are 'bad'.
The point I go back to is that if you take most of our players in isolation and put them into functioning teams and they would perform much better. Hence why the likes of Maguire and Shaw perform excellently for England - England are a functioning unit under Southgate.
This is also the reason that we sign players who perform well for other clubs and they instantly underwhelm. I could name 15/20 players we have signed in the last decade who's levels have dropped massively at United - some of them have even gone on to regain or discover excellent form elsewhere.
This is because we sign players without any thought to how we will use them, or whether they complement our set-up.
Why sign AWB, who's strength at Palace was his one vs one defensive work and then suddenly expect 11 assists a season?
Why sign a free-spirit like Paul Pogba, who played on the left of a three for Juventus, and ask him to play an orthodox, discipled, CM role?
Why sign Harry Maguire, who excelled in a three at Leicester and for England, and then play him in the most disorganised 4-2-3-1 high-press you have ever seen?
Why sign a 37yo CF and ask him to play upfront on his own every week for 90-minutes?
Why sign DvdB and play him in CM, in a non-pressing side?
I could just keep going on and on, but I think you get my point.
I will defend the players because they get stick from all angles, accused of not trying, accused of not caring, labelled "crap".....but they're not entirely to blame. Don't sign a player, chuck them into a chaotic, failing side, ask them to play a different role and then label them rubbish, lazy, non-triers etc....*
*some of our players are rubbish, lazy, non-triers....but I only think one or two
How on earth can you defend the players when we won't even get 4th spot.
Where did we finish the seasons that Shaw played well? I wouldn't be looking too much into the Covid season where we finished 2nd.
Fred/Scott/AWB/Lindelof/Ronaldo are not good enough to be starting week in/week out for United. They should be at a club like Everton.
Luke Shaw/Rashford/Pogba are probably the the laziest players and I've ever seen and lack concentration and commitment to the club.
We are talking here about players who cannot even get top four, never mind winning the title or a trophy.
He is stealing a living. I can accept him being shit offensively, but his lack of effort and trying is killing me. Just comfortable picking up wages, while strolling around for the most part ball watching and doing some slide tackles no ones cares about.
Where's the horse gif with the big ball because that's AWB.
Ah yeah, I forgot the 'COVID season' doesn't count because we somehow benefitted from it...despite being in exactly the same situation as the other 19 teams....
Apart from Rashford and maybe Pogba, I don't agree that any of the above are 'lazy'. Fred is terrible, for example, but he isn't lazy.
What I am defending the players from is this notion that they don't care and/or are lazy. They're not lazy, some of them just aren't very good, some are being asked to do jobs they can't do and some of them are just good players in a dysfunctional team
Whatever way you want to word it, AWB is not top four quality and need to be replaced.
There's five or six in the starting 11 that need to be moved on and its mixture of both attitude or quality.
I'm not sure what point your trying to make anymore.
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The point I am trying to make is really obvious, especially since I have outlined it about three times!
1) We're banging on about a RB. A RB! We have other far, far, far, far more important positions to address than RB. If you have ten superb footballers + AWB...yeah....sign a RB! If I see another penny spent on this squad before we sign CMs and a CF, I think I'll have a nervous breakdown!
2) It's not AWBs fault that we signed a player who excels at one thing (one vs one defending) and then ask him to do something completely different.
I log-in to this forum daily and see our players getting hammered. They are labelled terrible, non-triers, lazy...called all sorts of names by pundits, called all sorts of names by the print press, hammered on social media.
The people who should be getting hammered are the Board. The people who are responsible for this mess. Ed Woodward. The Glazers (by proxy). Whoever the actual f**k has been making footballing decisions behind the scenes.
That would be Woodward, who has had as many pelters as anyone and is now gone.
The players deserve every bit of criticism thrown their way. They have been shit and it isn't as if we need to invent the notion that they aren't trying, it is clear as fecking day that they aren't.
If you want to be challenging for titles we need the 5 or 6 positions filled and right back is one of those positions. Have you not watched the likes of Shaw and AWB this season compared to last season. They have been absolutely rubbish all season and that is down to attitude.
I'll stop replying now as you said AWB could swap into TAA's position
I think City overloaded that area and played the game there not because Wan-Bissaka can't defend but because he knows turning it over to him is not a problem.
I'll stop replying now as you said AWB could swap into TAA's position
Not what I said is it, and a classic tactic used on a forum to try and "win" an argument.
TAA is many multiples better suited to Liverpool's system than AWB. What I said about AWB, and many of our players, is that they would do fine in other better-functioning sides.
Point-being, we have this habit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. When we dont get good results, we declare every player to be terrible. Many of them are not terrible, we just need to fill in key positions around them and find a system which suits them.
The position I would prioritise right now is CM. You can't have a functioning team without functioning CMs, its just a fact.
Should be no where near starting tomorrow. If he does I'd have to question Rangnick.
So is he likely to be available in the summer or what? Would love to see AWB at RB and Tyrick Mitchell at LB for us.
I doubt it, no one will pay the price we'd want for him.
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